Not sure which Church would be the best for me

JohnB445

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I learn new things as my journey goes on. There are some teachings my pastor teaches that just doesn't seem biblical or right.

These are what is being taught by the pastor, Note my own beliefs will be in (Parentheses)

1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believes

(I believe the gifts are real, but I acknowledge there are people that have a counterfeit spirit). For example, we have control with the Holy Spirit. I don't think the people collapsing on the floor having seizures is the Holy Spirit.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

I don't necessarily know if I can trust what I am being taught.
 

Hazelelponi

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Your currently most likely in an independent church of some kind.

It's not a reformed church as reformed is amil not pre-trib rapture people.. so your pastor seems to have a bit of a jumbled up belief.

That said, you might feel more comfortable in a mainstream church of some kind. There are reformed Baptist churches that are very nice, and there are also southern Baptist churches which are pre-mil but overall nice people anyway and they don't believe in osas.

If you want to read some of the osas threads here you can, I believe the Bible teaches it but we believe if you walk away from the faith for the rest of your life then you were never saved to begin with and if you are Gods then even if you walk away from the faith for a while that God will bring you back into the fold and you won't die in that state.
.

Sorry I'm not more help. I'll pray for you. .
 
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thecolorsblend

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1. Once Saved Always Saved
This doctrine is false, full-stop.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).
The amount of stress people put themselves under over this subject (and related subjects) remains baffling to me.

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.
People condemn this belief a lot (and rightly so) but I find that there's rarely an exact definition of what this means and what this doesn't mean.

Would you care to define what exactly "not fully trust[ing] the finish[ed] work on the cross" means?

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.
Real? Probably. But, ahem, there's a section of the faith which puts entirely too much stock in this particular gift.

And speaking purely from a logical standpoint, of all spiritual gifts I would assume this is probably the easiest to counterfeit. Again, I don't deny the legitimacy of this gift. But the way some people talk (hehe) about it, you'd think this is the sole determinant of one's salvation.

Seriously people, it's not that big a deal.
 
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JohnB445

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This doctrine is false, full-stop.

The amount of stress people put themselves under over this subject (and related subjects) remains baffling to me.

People condemn this belief a lot (and rightly so) but I find that there's rarely an exact definition of what this means and what this doesn't mean.

Would you care to define what exactly "not fully trust[ing] the finish[ed] work on the cross" means?

Real? Probably. But, ahem, there's a section of the faith which puts entirely too much stock in this particular gift.

And speaking purely from a logical standpoint, of all spiritual gifts I would assume this is probably the easiest to counterfeit. Again, I don't deny the legitimacy of this gift. But the way some people talk (hehe) about it, you'd think this is the sole determinant of one's salvation.

Seriously people, it's not that big a deal.


The fully trusting the finish work, what I mean is we are saved by truly with our hearts believing and trusting Jesus that he died on the cross for our sins and paid the penalty for us to be saved if we believe.

There are a lot of Churches that don't believe that and say you need to follow the law to be saved.

Note that I am not saying grace is an excuse to sin or live lawlessly because the Bible warns us about that. But I don't think what we do saves us, because Jesus already did by the blood atonement.

The thing that makes me wonder is are people still saved if they misunderstand and believe they need to trust in Jesus and do works to be saved.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I learn new things as my journey goes on. There are some teachings my pastor teaches that just doesn't seem biblical or right.

These are what is being taught by the pastor, Note my own beliefs will be in (Parentheses)

1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believes

(I believe the gifts are real, but I acknowledge there are people that have a counterfeit spirit). For example, we have control with the Holy Spirit. I don't think the people collapsing on the floor having seizures is the Holy Spirit.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

I don't necessarily know if I can trust what I am being taught.

I guarantee you won't feel comfortable at a mainstream or Baptist church. They don't believe in the gifts. It sounds like you have experienced true life. I remember being a fish out of water, too, when God woke me up. It can be awkward. Sometimes God has you there for a time to be a witness to others, sometimes God moves you. You have to listen to the Spirit. It isn't always about where you are comfortable. It is about being where God wants you. Jesus didn't go where He felt comfortable, He went where God's Spirit led Him. Paul didn't go where he felt comfortable. He went where the Spirit led him. Sometimes God even knew Paul was getting a little gunshy and promised him a break from the stonings, beatings, etc.

The best advice I could ever give is be where God wants you to be. Your relationship is with Him first and foremost. I would also suggest that you find a group of like-minded believers that you can continue to grow in the Truth while you serve where God has you.
 
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HTacianas

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I learn new things as my journey goes on. There are some teachings my pastor teaches that just doesn't seem biblical or right.

These are what is being taught by the pastor, Note my own beliefs will be in (Parentheses)

1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believes

(I believe the gifts are real, but I acknowledge there are people that have a counterfeit spirit). For example, we have control with the Holy Spirit. I don't think the people collapsing on the floor having seizures is the Holy Spirit.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

I don't necessarily know if I can trust what I am being taught.

All of those things you say you disagree with are recent doctrines. They are not found in the Original Church. Perhaps you should look into the original Church, the Orthodox Church.
 
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Albion

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JohnB, despite the title of your thread/inquiry, I am not sure if you are actively looking for a new church, but I would note that what you are currently being taught is nothing unusual. There are few congregations of any denomination in which you wont ever hear, from the pastor, something that you are not sure about.

Is it that you cannot stand hearing these doctrinal views anymore, or is it just that you are uncertain of whether or not the pastor is correct in what he says about them? If it is the latter, you might run your concerns past him and see if he wont offer you more detailed answers and justifications than are possible when he is speaking to a larger body of church members in a sermon or elsewhere.
 
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tdidymas

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I learn new things as my journey goes on. There are some teachings my pastor teaches that just doesn't seem biblical or right.

These are what is being taught by the pastor, Note my own beliefs will be in (Parentheses)

1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believes

(I believe the gifts are real, but I acknowledge there are people that have a counterfeit spirit). For example, we have control with the Holy Spirit. I don't think the people collapsing on the floor having seizures is the Holy Spirit.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

I don't necessarily know if I can trust what I am being taught.

Early in my Christian life I was hit with a lot of controversy. I learned not to trust anything that anyone taught, but to trust the word of God only. I do listen to others, but always check it out with the scripture. It means that sometimes I have to sweat over the Bible for many hours to come to what I believe to be the right conclusion. But it appears to me that the issues you listed are minor issues and not worth separating yourself over. I've attended several churches that had a wide mixture of beliefs among the congregation on minor issues. I would recommend to conference with your pastor and see if you can have a "meeting of the minds."
TD:)
 
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Newtheran

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Acts2:38

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1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

False doctrine, not at all to be found anywhere in scripture.

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believe

Miracles have ceased (see 1 Corinthians 13:8-10) However, when one is baptized, they receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit which allows spiritual blessings such as prayer, see example Ephesians 1:3

If seizures occur, they need to seek medical attention. It is not the Holy Spirit giving them visions.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

Premillennialism is false, and found nowhere in scripture. They usually love to misquote Revelation and Daniel, and it is painful to hear and see such misinterpretation. For further discussion on this topic, please message me privately as I don't wish to have anyone interfere with incorrect babbling that will confuse you.

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

Do you mean, "Works to earn salvation"?

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

This does not happen anymore. Unless there is an apostle still alive to this day (meaning someone over 2,000 years old is walking the earth) to lay hands on someone, then no one has this gift. The only people that this gift "fell on", is recorded in Acts 2 and Acts 10. Everyone else had to have hands laid on them by an apostle (see Acts 8 as an example).

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 specifically states that those gifts would go away once "that which is perfect" is completed.

That which is perfect, is the scriptures that you read today. John finished the last book of the bible in 95-96 AD. John, the last apostle, also died shortly after. So "that which is perfect"(the bible) is already completed therefore there are no more miraculous gifts. This includes speaking in "tongues".

Speaking in tongues is not jibber jabber gubbalty gook that you hear now days.

The greek word is γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue. The language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

It is ACTUAL language like for example, German, French, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.
 
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Richard T

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Hebrews 10:16 (KJV) 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Your conscience with either excuse or accuse, your own behavior. To discern others requires the Holy Spirit and it takes real maturity to sort things out. Too often we see evil cloaked in goodness. We may then take shortcuts and assume that one person counterfeiting the Holy Spirit means that everyone else doing the same thing is also a counterfeit. It seems like you do this with people collapsing on the floor. I am certain that sometimes it is real and beneficial.

Now you can go to a church where there is no possibility of any outward gift of the spirit. No laying on of hands, no real speaking in tongues etc. It could still be quite good, have lots of fruit of the spirit etc. On the other hand, you could go to a church where the gifts operate. The problem then becomes how to discern the level of counterfeiting, which can range from almost always to rarely.
Hebrews 5:14 (KJV) 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I personally choose a church that has some willingness to take chances when it comes to moving in the gifts of the spirit. Using the opportunity to learn how to discern better.

As far as doctrine, I always choose a church that aligns with mine as close as possible. A big miss in one area, likely means there are more issues under the surface. If I have not studied the particular doctrine, I would not judge it but instead put it in line to gain more understanding on the matter.

With all that said, I would never suggest any believer to pull themselves from church or church hop constantly because a few things are not perfect. Ask God to plant you where you will flourish the most. Commit at least for some time and work to make things better.
 
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Newtheran

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I forgot to mention another doctrine that was taught.

It was taught that Jews that rejected Jesus will be saved regardless. That sounds good, but is it Biblical?

No. For *anyone* to be saved outside of Jesus would be to make the crucifixion of the Lamb of God superfluous. Don't forget that Jesus mission as described in the gospels was first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile. He himself said that he is the way, the truth, and the life and that no man comes to the Father but by Him. No loopholes.
 
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JohnB445

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It's interesting how all the doctrines I questioned were not biblical. Could be the discernment from Holy Spirit.

4 is Biblical I believe though because faith saves and not works. But works are evidence we have faith.

The speaking in tongues, I'd have to look into that more. I have friends who claim they are able to do it, and they seem perfectly normal.
 
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longwait

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I learn new things as my journey goes on. There are some teachings my pastor teaches that just doesn't seem biblical or right.

These are what is being taught by the pastor, Note my own beliefs will be in (Parentheses)

1. Once Saved Always Saved (If one decided to no longer believe they aren't saved are they?).

2. Holy Spirit gifts not real, speaking in tongues all fake I mean every single one he believes

(I believe the gifts are real, but I acknowledge there are people that have a counterfeit spirit). For example, we have control with the Holy Spirit. I don't think the people collapsing on the floor having seizures is the Holy Spirit.

3. Pre-trib rapture (Not 100% sure about this one, I am not good when it comes to end time prophecy).

4. People who do not fully trust the finish work on the cross are not saved.

(I do believe that we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift not earned, But I do not necessarily know if those who believe in Jesus that add works along with their salvation are not saved).

But I do know for 100% that speaking in tongues is indeed real, yes not everybody may be able to do it but its real.

I don't necessarily know if I can trust what I am being taught.

Why do you waste time attending a church that teaches false doctrines. You will end up getting deceived yourself.
OSAS is not true. You have to endure to the end to be saved.
12 Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:12-13
If you take the mark of the beast, whether you r born again or not, you will burn in hell. Thats what Revelations 14:9-13 says.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues are for real. Although some people fake it I believe.

Don't worry about rapture and don't go looking for it. While you are here be about your Father's business. Lead a righteous and holy life. That's what you should focus on.
 
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tdidymas

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I forgot to mention another doctrine that was taught.

It was taught that Jews that rejected Jesus will be saved regardless. That sounds good, but is it Biblical?
No, that's not Biblical. Rom. 9-11 is pretty clear that those who reject Christ will not be saved. It does imply, though that some future generation of Jews will be saved (probably a majority, of course on the condition that they believe in Christ).
TD:)
 
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