Christ takes away the first (sacrifice and offering) in the midst of the 70th week

DavidPT · Sep 26, 2018

claninja said:
I disagree, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are not required be within the 70 weeks. The 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled with Christ's ministry (3.5 years), his death and resurrection (ending the sacrifice and offering the midst of the week), and the coming of the holy spirit and the preaching the gospel to Israel (the woman nourished for 3.5 years).

Most beliefs insert a gap within daniel's 70 weeks. Dispensationalists seem to insert a 2000+year gap within the 70 weeks. Amils/preterist insert a 40 year gap after the 70 weeks but before the destruction of jerusalem.

Dispensationalists put the emphasis of Daniel's 70 weeks on the destruction of Jerusalem and the antichrist.

Amil/preterists put the emphasis of Daniel's 70 weeks on Christ and his atoning work.

Do you disagree that Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin ended the offering for sin?

Prove you are not cherry picking in verse 27 by showing which parts of verse 25 are not fulfilled during the first 69 weeks. My point is, if some of what is in verse 27 can happen outside of that week, then the same should be true of verse 25, that some of the things in that verse can happen outside of the 69 weeks as well.

Dave L · Sep 27, 2018

keras said:
What you and most don't seem to realize, is that we are in a transition period; the Church age, that was prophesied to last for 2000 years. Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32
Christ did make the full Atonement for our sins, but we are still able to sin, so it is an ongoing process until Jesus Returns. Only then will the final fulfilment of His sacrifice apply.

I can and have posted a lot of Bible information about Daniels 70th 'week'. It still awaits fulfilment, as described in Revelation.
If you choose to not believe that, that is your prerogative, but please cease making wacky comments like the above.

There is no "Church age" unless you consider the "Congregation of the Lord", mentioned over 300 times in the OT as the Church. And then the Church Age began at Sinai. Although the OT church was a Church/State made up of believers and unbelievers alike. And the Same Church is believers only minus the State under the New Covenant.

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2018

DavidPT said:
Prove you are not cherry picking in verse 27 by showing which parts of verse 25 are not fulfilled during the first 69 weeks. My point is, if some of what is in verse 27 can happen outside of that week, then the same should be true of verse 25, that some of the things in that verse can happen outside of the 69 weeks as well.

What is the "covenant with many" in Daniel 9:27?

Is it the "covenant with many" in Matthew 26:28?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant already promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

All of your arguments about this verse are of no importance unless you can answer these questions.

Daniel chapter 9 should be one of the foundations of our faith, but it has come under attack by those who deny the fulfillment of the New Covenant, in an attempt to make their man-made doctrines work.

You may not be a Dispensationalist, but you are making some of the same arguments.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

claninja · Sep 27, 2018

DavidPT said:
First of all I'm not a Dispensationalist.

From my understanding of dispensationalism, pre-mil is only non-disp if they believe there is no difference between the church and Israel and are post trib. This would be historic pre-mil. So if you believe there is no difference between the church and Israel and are post trib, I apologize for lumping you in with the disepensationalists (modern pre-mil).

DavidPT said:
This is the 70th week, all of it is referring to it. Which part of the above verse has a thing to do with what happened in 70 AD? That verse says---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Then it goes on to say of the person meant----and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. That only accounts for half of the week though. What accounts for the remainder of the week then? How can it not be this----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

Just as you argue that a 2000+ year gap must be inserted between the 69th and 70th week, and ALL of daniel 9:27 must be fulfilled in the 70th week, I argue there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week. All of Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled within the 70 weeks and the gap is between the 70th week and the city and sanctuary destruction. There is no biblical teaching to put a gap within a time framed prophecy. There are gaps in prophecy, but not when the prophecy is limited to a time frame. If you care to share other prophecies that are given a specific time frame with large time gaps in between I'd be interested to see them.

And if I argue there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week, there must be a gap in between the 70th week and the city and temple being destroyed with abominations, as the city and sanctuary were not destroyed within 3.5 years of Christ being cut off. There are examples of prophecy, when not given a specific time frame, that have a gap. Therefore, it is more appropriate to insert a gap AFTER the 70 week prophecy and not within.

DavidPT said:
Of course I don't disagree with that, yet Daniel 9:27 is not in regards to that though.

Ok, so we agree Christ's death took away the sin offering, good. I think it's interesting to note that the only other scriptures that discuss the taking away of the sacrifice use the hebrew word for "daily" (daniel 8, 11, 12), while daniel 9 specifically uses the hebrew words for sacrifice and offering. You would think that if daniel 9 was talking about the same thing, the hebrew word for "daily" would be there instead of "sacrifice" and offering".

DavidPT said:
Prove you are not cherry picking in verse 27 by showing which parts of verse 25 are not fulfilled during the first 69 weeks.

From the command to restore Jerusalem until the coming of anointed prince is 7 and 62 weeks
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In what period of time is the city rebuilt in troubled times? during the 7 weeks? the 62? 69?
I would argue during the 7 weeks. the 62 weeks being the time between Jerusalem already rebuilt and the coming of Christ.

Does the messiah come within the 69 weeks? at the end? just after?
I would argue, when the 7 and 62 weeks end, the messiah comes.

What we do know, is the messiah is cut off AFTER the 69 weeks.
Daniel 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off
Therefore the messiah is either cut off during the 70th week, as I would argue, or within a gap as you would argue. One cannot deny the hebrew word for "after"

DavidPT said:
My point is, if some of what is in verse 27 can happen outside of that week, then the same should be true of verse 25, that some of the things in that verse can happen outside of the 69 weeks as well.

Verse 26 is problem with this though. AFTER 69 weeks the messiah is cut off and the city and sanctuary are destroyed. So either this is happening in the 70th week or it is happening in a gap, before the 70th week starts.

As for the 70th week, are there any other scriptures that state the antichrist will make a covenant? Not that I have found, but there are many times where God states he will make a new covenant. It's interesting to note, that Christ came to establish the new covenant, which correlates perfectly with the 70 week prophecy. And since Christ took away the first (sacrifices and offerings hebrews 10) with his death and resurrection, it is not unreasonable for this to be what is spoken of in Daniel 9:27, especially since Christ's death and resurrection fulfills most of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, while his ministry and the gospel fulfills the remainder of the 6 points.

Douggg · Sep 27, 2018

claninja said:
It is Christ who takes away the first (sacrifice and offering) at his death, resurrection, and ascension in order to establish the 2nd.

Daniel 9:27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering

Hebrews 10:8-10 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Hebrew words for sacrifice and offering in Daniel 9 are different than what is found in other passages about the sacrifice being taken away (Daniel 8 and 12).

The Hebrew word for sacrifice in Daniel 8 and 12, is actually literally translated as "the daily". the Hebrew word for sacrifice is not in the passage.

Daniel 8:11 it took away the daily [sacrifice] from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down
Daniel 12:11 From the time that the daily [sacrifice] is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days

While Antiochus and his army stopped "the daily" during the time of the Seleucids and the zealots/Titus/Roman armies stopped "the daily" during the jewish-roman war, It is Christ who took away the "sacrifice and offering" for all who believe by his death and resurrection.

How does Christian theology stop what Judaism is going to do in regards to rebuilding a temple?

And Judaism starting up animal sacrifices again? Judaism doesn't care about what we believe, they act on what they believe.

claninja · Sep 27, 2018

Douggg said:
How does Christian theology stop what Judaism is going to do in regards to rebuilding a temple?

Hebrews was written prior to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. Prior to the temple's destruction, sacrifices were still being performed, and yet the author of Hebrews writes this:
Hebrews 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

So, while sacrifices were still being performed under the outdated and fading away temple and its ritual institution, the author of Hebrews states there was no longer a sacrifice for sin where sins have been forgiven.

Our sin and debt were nailed to the cross at death of Christ (Christ being cut off).
Colossians 2:13-14 He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Our sins have been forgiven, and there is no longer a sacrifice for sin. Therefore it is the atoning work of Christ that ended the sacrifice and offering. The author of Hebrews recognizes this and clearly states this, even while the temple was still standing and animal sacrifices were still being performed.

Douggg said:
And Judaism starting up animal sacrifices again? Judaism doesn't care about what we believe, they act on what they believe.

I suggest reading about the other time the Jews attempted to rebuild the temple in 363 ad. It didn't turn out too well for them. And It wasn't Christian theology that stopped them, it was the hand of God.

iamlamad · Sep 27, 2018

Dave L said:
There is no "Church age" unless you consider the "Congregation of the Lord", mentioned over 300 times in the OT as the Church. And then the Church Age began at Sinai. Although the OT church was a Church/State made up of believers and unbelievers alike. And the Same Church is believers only minus the State under the New Covenant.

OF COURSE there is a "church age." 99.99999% of the church of today knows this as truth. I am amazed you still need to learn it. It started when Jesus breathed on those in the upper room and said, "receive my spirit" and they were all born again.

Try as you might, you will not find ANYONE "born again" in the Old Covenant.

iamlamad · Sep 27, 2018

claninja said:
From my understanding of dispensationalism, pre-mil is only non-disp if they believe there is no difference between the church and Israel and are post trib. This would be historic pre-mil. So if you believe there is no difference between the church and Israel and are post trib, I apologize for lumping you in with the disepensationalists (modern pre-mil).

Just as you argue that a 2000+ year gap must be inserted between the 69th and 70th week, and ALL of daniel 9:27 must be fulfilled in the 70th week, I argue there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week. All is fulfilled within the 70 weeks and the gap is between the 70th week and the city and sanctuary destruction. There is no biblical teaching to put a gap within a time framed prophecy. There are gaps in prophecy, but not when the prophecy is limited to a time frame. If you care to share other prophecies that are given a specific time frame with large time gaps in between I'd be interested to see them.

And if I argue there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week, there must be a gap in between the 70th week and the city and temple being destroyed with abominations, as the city and sanctuary were not destroyed within 3.5 years of Christ being cut off. There are examples of prophecy, when not given a specific time frame, that have a gap. Therefore, it is more appropriate to insert a gap AFTER the 70 week prophecy and not within.

Ok, so we agree Christ's death took away the sin offering, good. I think it's interesting to note that the only other scriptures that discuss the taking away of the sacrifice use the hebrew word for "daily" (daniel 8, 11, 12), while daniel 9 specifically uses the hebrew words for sacrifice and offering. You would think that if daniel 9 was talking about the same thing, the hebrew word for "daily" would be there instead of "sacrifice" and offering".

From the command to restore Jerusalem until the coming of anointed prince is 7 and 62 weeks
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In what period of time is the city rebuilt in troubled times? during the 7 weeks? the 62? 69?
I would argue during the 7 weeks. the 62 weeks being the time between Jerusalem already rebuilt and the coming of Christ.

Does the messiah come within the 69 weeks? at the end? just after?
I would argue, when the 7 and 62 weeks end, the messiah comes.

What we do know, is the messiah is cut off AFTER the 69 weeks.
Daniel 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off
Therefore the messiah is either cut off during the 70th week, as I would argue, or within a gap as you would argue. One cannot deny the hebrew word for "after"

Verse 26 is problem with this though. AFTER 69 weeks the messiah is cut off and the city and sanctuary are destroyed. So either this is happening in the 70th week or it is happening in a gap, before the 70th week starts.

As for the 70th week, are there any other scriptures that state the antichrist will make a covenant? Not that I have found, but there are many times where God states he will make a new covenant. It's interesting to note, that Christ came to establish the new covenant, which correlates perfectly with the 70 week prophecy. And since Christ took away the first (sacrifices and offerings hebrews 10) with his death and resurrection, it is not unreasonable for this to be what is spoken of in Daniel 9:27, especially since Christ's death and resurrection fulfills most of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, while his ministry and the gospel fulfills the remainder of the 6 points.

Verse 26 is problem with this though. AFTER 69 weeks the messiah is cut off and the city and sanctuary are destroyed. So either this is happening in the 70th week or it is happening in a gap, before the 70th week starts.

This is a brilliant answer and very true. It was Daniel Himself that inserted a gap, by showing us events that happened AFTER the 69 weeks, but not inside an other kind of a "week" as in the 70th week. It is absolute, 70AD does not fit into a 7 year period of time from Jesus' birth or His death. (It does have a 7!)Daniel himself proves there is a gap.

Revelation proves there is a gap, because NO trumpet judgment has come, and NO vial judgment has come. The rapture has not happened, nor the man of sin revealed. the 6th seal has not happened.

Dave L · Sep 27, 2018

iamlamad said:
OF COURSE there is a "church age." 99.99999% of the church of today knows this as truth. I am amazed you still need to learn it. It started when Jesus breathed on those in the upper room and said, "receive my spirit" and they were all born again.

Try as you might, you will not find ANYONE "born again" in the Old Covenant.

99.99999% of Dispensationalists believe this error. They must because their entire agenda collapses when the truth becomes known.

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2018

iamlamad said:
Try as you might, you will not find ANYONE "born again" in the Old Covenant.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

.

Douggg · Sep 27, 2018

claninja said:
I suggest reading about the other time the Jews attempted to rebuild the temple in 363 ad. It didn't turn out too well for them. And It wasn't Christian theology that stopped them, it was the hand of God.

363 ad was not time of the end. Eschatology is the study of the end times.

What I am saying is you have made a point of theology - not eschatology. In eschatology, there are things that are done completely opposite from what is theological right.

There is still going to be a temple built, there is still going to be the war of Gog/Magog, there is still going to be an Antichrist, there is still going to be a 70th week, there is still going to be a great tribulation - for certain because God has said so in the bible.

The question is what does a person do with that information.

Douggg · Sep 27, 2018

iamlamad said:
This is a brilliant answer and very true. It was Daniel Himself that inserted a gap, by showing us events that happened AFTER the 69 weeks, but not inside an other kind of a "week" as in the 70th week. It is absolute, 70AD does not fit into a 7 year period of time from Jesus' birth or His death. (It does have a 7!)Daniel himself proves there is a gap.

exactly. well, it was the angel speaking of behalf of God, not something Daniel devised. But the point is there is a gap to the 70th week.

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2018

Douggg said:
There is still going to be a temple built, there is still going to be the war of Gog/Magog, there is still going to be an Antichrist, there is still going to be a 70th week, there is still going to be a great tribulation - for certain because God has said so in the bible.

The only way to produce a future 70th week of Daniel is by ignoring Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

It must also claim the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant already promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant...

.

claninja · Sep 27, 2018

iamlamad said:
It was Daniel Himself that inserted a gap

Was it Daniel or God who wrote the prophecy?

iamlamad said:
by showing us events that happened AFTER the 69 weeks, but not inside an other kind of a "week" as in the 70th week

There is no gap WITHIN the 70 week prophecy. Nor is there any precedence for inserting one. No where does the bible teach to insert a gap within a time framed prophecy. There are prophecies with gaps, but they are not bound by a given time frame.

Can you provide one other OT prophecy with a given time frame, where there is gap is inserted in order to support the claim that a gap can be inserted within a time framed prophecy?

iamlamad said:
It is absolute, 70AD does not fit into a 7 year period of time from Jesus' birth or His death. (It does have a 7!)

I agree that 70AD does not fit within the final 70th week. The final 70th week is Christ's ministry for 3.5 years, Christ being cut off in the midst of the 70th week effectively ending the sacrifice and offering, and the gospel going exclusively to Israel for the remain 3.5 years.

The sanctuary and city being destroyed and the abominations occurred about 35 years after the 70th week was fulfilled. The gap is after the 70th.

iamlamad said:
Revelation proves there is a gap,

I agree.

When Jesus ascends to heaven the woman (Israel) is nourishd 3.5 years (1260 days)
Revelation 12:5-6 And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

After the midst of 70th week, when Jesus ascends to heaven, Israel is nourished for a time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), where the dragon cannot harm her.
Revelation 12:13-16 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

**Here is the gap, which occurs after the 70th week is fulfilled:
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

iamlamad said:
the 6th seal has not happened.

6th seal is fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, about 35 year after the 70th week was fulfilled.
Luke 23:29-30 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then “ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ b

Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

claninja · Sep 27, 2018

Douggg said:
363 ad was not time of the end. Eschatology is the study of the end times

Paul believed he was living in the end times
1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Peter believed he was living in the end times
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

James believed he was living in the end times
James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is at hand. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

John believed he was living in the end times
1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

The end times came and went. The temple was destroyed in 70ad just as Jesus predicted it would occur at the end of the age. Any and all attempts to rebuild a brick and mortar physical earthly temple after that have been stopped by God himself. Christ himself has already built the temple: he is the cornerstone and the apostles are the foundation.

Douggg said:
is still going to be an Antichrist, there is still going to be a 70th week,

According to the "gap" theory, none of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are actually fulfilled in the 70 weeks
Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’ c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. e

It is Jesus who redeems those who committed transgression under the first covenant
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

It is Jesus who put away sin by his sacrifice
Hebrews 9:26 he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

It is Jesus who atoned for wickedness
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

It is Jesus who brings in everlasting righteousness
matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

It is Jesus who fulfilled all that was written about him in vision and prophet
Matthew 5:18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

It is Jesus who is the most holy that was anointed.
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

****It is 7+62 weeks UNTIL the coming of Christ's ministry and covenant confirmation. Christ is cut off AFTER the 69 weeks. It is Christ who fulfills the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 by his ministry, death, and sending of the holy spirit. If we are to insert a gap between the 69th week and 70th week, that means Christ did not fulfill the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 within any of the prophetic 70 weeks, but in a gap outside of the 70 weeks

Therefore if Christ fulfilled any of the 6 points in a gap outside of and not within the 70 prophetic weeks, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement.

Christian Gedge · Sep 27, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Animal sacrifices after the sacrifice of God's Son were an "abomination".

claninja said:
Hebrews was written prior to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. Prior to the temple's destruction, sacrifices were still being performed, and yet the author of Hebrews writes this:
Hebrews 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Yes, this is what the early church came to believe. An early statement reads:

"For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed."
(Clement, Recognitions, Ch. 64)

DavidPT · Sep 29, 2018

Douggg said:
How does Christian theology stop what Judaism is going to do in regards to rebuilding a temple?

And Judaism starting up animal sacrifices again? Judaism doesn't care about what we believe, they act on what they believe.

There is not going to be the rebuilding of a temple though, in order to fulfill these things. It's 2018. A brick and mortar temple such as this doesn't fit our day and age. Believe what you want though. No one can stop you believing what you choose to believe. But I will predict though, while some of you are waiting for this temple to get built in order to allegedly fulfill these things, these things will be being fulfilled right in front of your eyes, except that you will miss it since you are looking for something else instead.

DavidPT · Sep 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Animal sacrifices after the sacrifice of God's Son were an "abomination".

What you would have us believe then, since it was God Himself that initially came up with the idea of animal sacrificing, that when He required this of folks in past ages, He was ultimately making them commit abominations by doing this?

But let's suppose that it is now an abomination and that is what the AOD in Matthew 24 is referring to.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Let's first substitute the abomination of desolation for animal sacrificing, like such, since that's what you are apparently taking it to mean here, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see animal sacrificing, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Now let's try and reason through this. The first question to ask is this---When ye therefore shall see animal sacrificing, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place---where in Daniel do we find that?

The next question to ask is this---what does the text indicate one is to do when they see animal sacrificing going on? Aren't they supposed to flee into the mountains, etc? Did they not see animal sacrificing continuing for at least 40 more years post Christ's death and resurrection? During that 40 years were those that were seeing these things, were they fulfilling verses 16-18 on a continual basis for 40 years straight? Probably not, right? If you can't see that making the AOD having anything to do with animal sacrificing, that it doesn't fit the text, I don't know what to tell you. Those of us still living in the real world though can easily see it doesn't fit the text. It makes nonsense out of the text rather than sense out of it.

Douggg · Sep 29, 2018

DavidPT said:
There is not going to be the rebuilding of a temple though, in order to fulfill these things. It's 2018. A brick and mortar temple such as this doesn't fit our day and age.

What is our day and age, to you?

DavidPT · Sep 29, 2018

Douggg said:
What is our day and age, to you?

I'm in the USA. If a temple got built in Jerusalem, why should I care? What could possibly happen in this alleged temple that could affect me here in the USA?

Christ takes away the first (sacrifice and offering) in the midst of the 70th week

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