WTC disaster briefly explained

Yauming · Jan 21, 2002

Well, you misunderstood me. Our Christian faith demands that we reach out and try to tell the message of Christ to non-believers. Our faith says we are suppose to do this in love, respect, and gentleness.

In the past, especially, Christians due to a poor understanding of the bible- used violence to try to "convert" non-believers. For example, the crusades. That is utterly 10000% wrong.

If we did not believe the Gospel- that Jesus was as he claimed the Son of God and that he died to save the lost- we wouldn't be Christians then.

If you think that people are neutral even if they are atheist on their beliefs- you are mistaken. Everywhere people in subtle or forceful ways are trying to convince others of the "power of their beliefs". You cannot preach the Gospel openly in any of the Muslim nations. In many of them, it is illegal for a Muslim to convert to Christianity. The punishment is often death.

Originally posted by imagineer
I dont understand how you can be so intolerant of other faiths.

This makes me feel sick. You want to convert millions people to your own religion, simply because they are muslim?
How would you like it if you were in the minority, and hundreds of muslim preachers came over to Austalia and tried to turn you away from something you have ultimate faith in?

I am not attacking your christian views, I just cant believe you can be so intolerant and one sided in your views.

Liam Slater · Jan 21, 2002

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Dear Liam,

God is a loving God, but God is a Holy and just God. He detests sin and has to punish it otherwise He wouldn't be holy anymore!

So it's holy to destroy an entire city because of a few people not being hospitable to some angels?

There are many prophecies fulfilled....
Check out http://www.konig.org

Click to expand...

Don't have time to look through all of this atm, but I'm having a quick look, so far they all look to be vague profescies that are statistically very likey to happen in time.

eg:
The Jews would be scattered worldwide - no civilisation is going to stay put, wars, need for exploraation etc will make them move apart.

Israel would be partitioned by other nations - boundaries are never constant, especially in the turbulent times back then.

The fact about Texas being covered would be infintesimal is the whole point!! The probability of Jesus fulfilling all the Old Testament prophecies is supposedly comparable to the chance of finding that coin!!

Click to expand...

Not really, those events have a high statistical chance of happening to many civilisations, and many profesises are very vague anyway, making it easier to find something that fits it. Aswell as that it doesn't say how many unfulfilled profesises there are.

HolyCanaan has only given a list of simple differences between the two, thus disproving that both gods are the same. The only proven God is that of the Bible.

Click to expand...

Where is this list? I haven't seen it.

Debbie · Jan 21, 2002

Since I used to be an atheist, and have been a born again Christian for many years, maybe I can help clarify. In line with the original thread here is my opinion of why the wtc disaster occurred. Those of us who believe in the scriptures(Bible) know that the OT tells us the first born son recieved all his father's inheritance. Abraham, who is in our OT & also in the Quaran, had his firstborn son with his wife's handmaiden. But this was not God's will. Sarah, his wife, was tired of waiting for God to fulfill HIs promise to ABraham of a son. So Sarah told Abraham that God told her to have ABraham sleep with HAgar. THis was not true. Hagar & Abraham's son was Ishmael, who founded Islam. BOth the BIble & the Quaran speak of Ishmael. Later Sarah had a son by Abraham as God had promised. God said that this boy, Issac, would inherit his father's wealth=ISRAEL. So Ishmael's descendants are really ticked off=muslims. This is why I heard Bin LAden on CNN, with a palestinian leader beside him , in front of a cave, say"We want our inheritance! We are tired of America protecting Israel!" THe prophecy in the Quran is bunk. They know it. According to their prophecy they should have been running the world by now. When in fact, Muslims make up Europe's biggest servant population, beings maids,etc to wealthy Europeans. MOst of MUslims live in extreme poverty. Unlike Christians, MUslims are forced to fulfill their god's prophecy themselves & try to make it come true. And in regards to being an atheist, if you put some serious study into it, such as archeology, and other religions you might find out there is a God. Other religions deny Christ, which leads you to hell if you believe it. Why do they all say it? It's not necessary to their religion.Satan rules false religions. (satan showed me he existed but I don't reccommend it). WHy does God send us to hell? Well what's the point of going to the trouble of making us & giving us the beautiful earth & making a law or rule & having no consequence for disobeying the rule? & what is the rule? Well, if I had done all this for you & you didnt appreciate it, then I had my son suffer & die for you & you didnt believe my son died & rose again,,,, then I would send you to hell too. The only rule is that you believe HIs son Jesus died for you on the cross & rose again. As a mother of a son, I don't think our father is asking too much of anyone to just believe, or suffer eternal hell. So be it.

Holycanaan · Jan 21, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
Since I used to be an atheist, and have been a born again Christian for many years, maybe I can help clarify. In line with the original thread here is my opinion of why the wtc disaster occurred. Those of us who believe in the scriptures(Bible) know that the OT tells us the first born son recieved all his father's inheritance. Abraham, who is in our OT & also in the Quaran, had his firstborn son with his wife's handmaiden. But this was not God's will. Sarah, his wife, was tired of waiting for God to fulfill HIs promise to ABraham of a son. So Sarah told Abraham that God told her to have ABraham sleep with HAgar. THis was not true. Hagar & Abraham's son was Ishmael, who founded Islam. BOth the BIble & the Quaran speak of Ishmael. Later Sarah had a son by Abraham as God had promised. God said that this boy, Issac, would inherit his father's wealth=ISRAEL. So Ishmael's descendants are really ticked off=muslims. This is why I heard Bin LAden on CNN, with a palestinian leader beside him , in front of a cave, say"We want our inheritance! We are tired of America protecting Israel!" THe prophecy in the Quran is bunk. They know it. According to their prophecy they should have been running the world by now. When in fact, Muslims make up Europe's biggest servant population, beings maids,etc to wealthy Europeans. MOst of MUslims live in extreme poverty. Unlike Christians, MUslims are forced to fulfill their god's prophecy themselves & try to make it come true. And in regards to being an atheist, if you put some serious study into it, such as archeology, and other religions you might find out there is a God. Other religions deny Christ, which leads you to hell if you believe it. Why do they all say it? It's not necessary to their religion.Satan rules false religions. (satan showed me he existed but I don't reccommend it). WHy does God send us to hell? Well what's the point of going to the trouble of making us & giving us the beautiful earth & making a law or rule & having no consequence for disobeying the rule? & what is the rule? Well, if I had done all this for you & you didnt appreciate it, then I had my son suffer & die for you & you didnt believe my son died & rose again,,,, then I would send you to hell too. The only rule is that you believe HIs son Jesus died for you on the cross & rose again. As a mother of a son, I don't think our father is asking too much of anyone to just believe, or suffer eternal hell. So be it.

~~Hi Debbie~~

I want to congratulate you on a fine write up!

PRAISE THE LORD! You saw the light! Yes, He is our TRUE GOD! There is NO other besides Him. He is our hope and strength! Do not forget, that when you became a Christian ALL the Angels in heaven rejoiced! <><

rkbo · Jan 21, 2002

I have found that most atheists make a box and if they can't get God to fit in that box, then they deny he exist. What needs to be done is to let God reveal himself to you and apprehend or grab on to his revelation. Seeking with an honest and humble heart. The fact should be noted that God can not be fully understood. Finite mind can not fully understand infinite intellect. I don't fully understand electricity but I see it's effects and I believe it exists.

May I give a nerdy kind of example.....Ok follow this.

Mr A lives in a 2 dimensional world. Length and width but no deepth. Now God reveals himself as a point. Mr. A can relate to this and can say "God is a point".

Then God reveals himself as a line. Boy Mr A is marveled but believes his revelation and can say "God is a point and somehow he is also a line."

Then God reveals himself as a square. Mr A is astounded he says " God is not only a point and a line but also a square. I don't understand it but I believe it because he revealed this to me. "

Now the truth is that this God is a cube. when he puts one corner of himself in Mr A's world Mr A sees a point. Then he puts one edge of himself in this 2 dimensional world and Mr. A sees a line. When he lays one side of himself in this dimension, a square is seen. But no matter how hard God would try to make Mr. A understand what a cube is, Mr. A would never be able to understand it or relate to it.

I know that was a dorky analogy but God can not fit into any box we could make. He reveals himself in scripture and we understand what we can and take the rest on faith. Not blind faith but faith based on reason. Reason can take us so far, then we have to take the next step in faith. Faith takes us beyond where reason can take us. To come to God has to be a step of faith.

Yauming · Jan 22, 2002

This has been discussed in a previous thread.

Although many prophecies may sound vague, one prophecy- the destruction and creation of the state of Israel 2 times - stand out.

That has never happened before to any nation or people. Usually, they get assimilated into the nation that they are residing in and plague, war takes care of the rest.

When we say destroyed, we are not taking about a nation getting defeated in war, occupied, and then later rising up again. For example, France or Germany. We are taking about the situation where practically the entire population gets (either killed or) sold off into slavery and taken hundreds if not thousands of miles away from their land.

The prophecy and the creation of the state of Israel- defies logic.

Originally posted by Liam Slater

Believer · Jan 22, 2002

While reading last night this verse popped out at me and it made me think of this thread:

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Matt. 5:44 (NIV)

When you've accepted Jesus into your heart it's amazing how different you view people and situations. We are still human and still feel intolerance, anger, etc., like we did before, but somehow it is just easier and definitely feels so much better.

imagineer · Jan 22, 2002

Please take a look at my new post in this forum.

Yauming · Jan 22, 2002

Thank Debbie for the post!

What you said is very true! The "sons" of Hagar are very angry that they are still beholden to Sarah's offspring. it doesn't gel with their teachings so they draw some unfortunate conclusions.

Just one small thing, the Bible does not say that Sarah claimed that God told her to getl Abram to sleep with her maidservant. The actual text reads-

".. so Sarai said to Abram, "The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her. Abram agreed to what Sarai said...." Gen16:2

And thus began the longest dysfunctional families ever.... And to think that Rosanne (sitcom) was bad.

On other issues, Ishamel did not found Islam or any religion either. He was a big warlord or ruler. Hundreds of years later, Mohammad, an Arab who claimed to be his desendent, claimed the link between Islam and Ishamel. He figured if the Jews claim their ancestor was Isaac, the Arabs should claim theirs as Ishamel.

In the Quran, IIRC Mohammad copied the ancient Jewish OT but edited it to make the story favorable on Hagar and Ishamel.

Originally posted by Debbie
.........HIs promise to ABraham of a son. So Sarah told Abraham that God told her to have ABraham sleep with HAgar. THis was not true. Hagar & Abraham's son was Ishmael, who founded Islam. BOth the BIble & the Quaran speak of Ishmael. Later

sbbqb7n16 · Jan 26, 2002

Originally posted by Liam Slater
So it's holy to destroy an entire city because of a few people not being hospitable to some angels?

I'm assuming you are talking about Lot? But if you carefully read the passage from Genesis 18 on. It reads that in verse 32..."For the sake of 10 righteous I will not destroy it."- Gen 18:32

This obviously states that there was more going on there against the will of God than not be "hospitable" - (if you think trying to have homosexual relations with them is "not hospitable" and nothing more heinous than that)- Sodom and Gomorrah are obviously sinful cities with no respect for God and therefore should have been destroyed.

they all look to be vague profescies that are statistically very likey to happen in time

Maybe if you only look at certain prophecies in particular, but what about Psalm 22 where the crucifixion is almost exactly portrayed by King David thousands of years before Christ. How is that statistically likely? How about the exact birthplace of Christ told in Micah 5:2? Or the virigin birth of Isaiah 7:14? That doesn't even happen normally at all let alone when prophecy predicts it. The geneology of Genesis 49:10? Or Isaiah 40:3? Daniel 9 24-26? These are not statistically possible and are only a few mentioned on the site konig.org. Maybe you should take the time to read the ones about Jesus...even though you have the time to post here, you can probably find the time to read those.

Not really, those events have a high statistical chance of happening to many civilisations, and many profesises are very vague anyway, making it easier to find something that fits it. Aswell as that it doesn't say how many unfulfilled profesises there are.

Some of these don't have the high chance (see above)...some also aren't vague and are very to the point...about the unfulfilled prophecies- how bout you tell me? where are they? mainly in Revelation I'd have to say because those deal with the endtimes, which happen to be coming true as we speak....

Where is this list? I haven't seen it.

If I'm not mistaken you yourself made a comment about this list earlier on in this same thread. The list is here somewhere toward the beginning.

Basically, don't try and put me down for saying the truth until you are actually 100% sure I am mistaken. If I am, I will learn from my mistakes and move on. But until you can be certain, please search the Word of God until you can be. Thanks and keep searching your Bible!!

Josiah · Jan 27, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
Well, if I had done all this for you & you didnt appreciate it, then I had my son suffer & die for you & you didnt believe my son died & rose again,,,, then I would send you to hell too.

I don't believe God sends us to hell. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for us. When we sinned, we separated ourselves from God (Romans 3:23). In His mercy, He didn't destroy us on the spot. In HIS graciousness, He provided a way for us to be with Him - His son Jesus Christ! Those who reject God's only way of redemption (believing Jesus is our Christ, our Savior) actually choose hell over Heaven and eternal life with God whether or not they understand their choice.

Debbie · Jan 27, 2002

I stand corrected in explanation of why one ends up in hell. I forgot fearing God wasn't popular.

Josiah · Jan 27, 2002

Don't misunderstand me sister!

I'm not an "Oh, God would never do that, He's too loving" kind of a person. God is just and righteous in everything He does. I believe He will judge those who have rejected Jesus and I believe it will be His wrath that is poured out, but the decision, I believe, is ultimately ours.

(BTW - I wasn't REALLY trying to correct you

...I guess I was just stating how I felt about the subject.)

with love in Christ...

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. Psalm 111:10

WTC disaster briefly explained

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