Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

AnticipateHisComing

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Given that the said creed is the statement of faith for this forum I probably hold the view that if you want to debate it's theology, perhaps that thread should be in controversial theology.
Please if you are going to jump in and respond to my post to another, take the time to read what I posted and don't throw out questions that are against the SOF. I asked about your other creeds. You ignore that question. You ignore my statement that I was good with the Nicene Creed.

I am good with the Nicene Creed which, as someone else reminded us all, is the SOF to post here.
Are you good with people that don't hold all your other creeds being called Christians and being able to post here?
I challenge you again to answer the question asked. Of course the person originally asked the question also failed to address it.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Really? So "Christian Identity" folks are Christians just the same as we creed quoters? How about the Children of God? Christian Science? Unificationists (Moonies)? Muslims? They believe that Isa was a great prophet. Anybody who uses the term "Christian"without regard for their beliefs?

No. There has to be a standard that says "this is what, at a minimum, Christians believe, otherwise they are'nt Christians, no matter what it says on their letterhead.
You respond to post 182 as if I did not write post 181 that says I am good with the Nicene Creed. If you read post 182, then you should have read post 181 that is right above it and much shorter. It should be assumed that anyone posting here agrees to the SOF that includes the Nicene Creed. My contention is with people that think you are unorthodox Christian if you don't hold some other creed besides the SOF.
I am good with the Nicene Creed which, as someone else reminded us all, is the SOF to post here.
Are you good with people that don't hold all your other creeds being called Christians and being able to post here?
Care to answer the question?
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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A statement from a council that such-and-such is not an acceptable belief is a way to try to set some boundaries. Such-and-such is - literally - beyond the pale. But those statements are not usually incorporated into the worshipping life of a community in the same way, and, frankly, most conciliar statements (or canons) are now cheerfully ignored by most Christians. They were important at the time, in the context of issues going on then, but we certainly don't go around saying that so-and-so is cursed (or not Christian) because they believe something that had a motion passed against it at some council none of us have ever read all the resolutions of.
My contention is when people on GT tell others they are not orthodox because they don't believe some other creed besides the Nicene or because they don't buy in to the work of some other ancient council. Further some like to throw around accusations of heresy this and that based on something that is not in the SOF.
 
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Paidiske

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There are definitely important Christian beliefs which are not articulated in the Nicene Creed. (One which particularly irritates me is when people assert hierarchy in the Trinity, though the Athanasian Creed clearly rules that out).

But that sort of stuff is allowed to be debated here, so, I guess, bring your best arguments and see how they fare.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Okay. I do understand a creed as a statement of faith. That no issue and that is how I understand a creed to mean.

But that council said a person must believe that exact statement about Mary or they were (or should be) cursed and were not a Christian.

I don't believe that statement.

Therefore, those who affirm that council as being representative of a Godly resolution of faith, don't accept me as Christian.

Now. That is sneaky because they don't tell you upfront they believe it's central to Christianity, but apparently they do tell you.

The council statements seems to me to be the fine print of the creed...the legalese most people don't read, but will get you in the end.
I feel your pain. This whole thread was started in a response to my threads that while abiding to the Nicene Creed were deemed unorthodox, rogue, and a problem because someone holds others creeds and council works that are not in the SOF for this Christian forum.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I feel your pain. This whole thread was started in a response to my threads that while abiding to the Nicene Creed were deemed unorthodox, rogue, and a problem because someone holds others creeds and council works that are not in the SOF for this Christian forum.

Well they want us to start another thread if we want to discuss councils...

Anyway I figure if they want to holler I'm off topic the second I sit and decide to talk about it, shutting me down, its not worth it when I was trying to actually understand their beliefs.

When they tell you something you believe is wrong just discuss it then, the exact belief at the time... figure it out then.

Forget talking here. It's their thread let them have it.
 
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Dave-W

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I maintain that anyone who explains the Trinity other than by simply quoting creeds inevitably ends up in heresy.
Even quoting the creeds is problematic. While the doctrine is absolutely correct, the way it is worded makes it sound (to Jewish ears) like tri-theism - 3 separate gods. How can that make Jews jealous? It sounds totally heathen.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.​
 
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Foxfyre

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I am good with the Nicene Creed which, as someone else reminded us all, is the SOF to post here.
Are you good with people that don't hold all your other creeds being called Christians and being able to post here?

I am not the person to whom you addressed the question but I don't think the intent of the forum was to restrict discussions only to members who adhere strictly to the Nicene Creed which originally was intended as a profession of faith required of the holy orders in the Roman Catholic Church.

Many Protestant Denominations also accept the Nicene Creed while others lean more heavily on the Anasthasian and Apostles' Creeds. These do not specifically contradict each other, depending on interpretations and at various times, some denominations will use them all. And of course there are other statements of faith that essentially become creeds among the many denominations.

It is the the interpretations of the content of the creeds that the Church has been debating and sometimes warring over for all this time. Schisms in the Church developed early, becoming very apparent by the second century over the concept of such matters like the Trinity. Despite the adopted creeds, the Church is not in agreement over whether the Mass/Eucharist/Holy Communion involves consubstantiation, transubstantiation, or is essentially a memorial service or who is allowed to receive it or who is allowed to dispense it, etc. Or whether sprinkling, pouring, or immersion is the 'only' valid method of baptism or even what baptism accomplishes.

We could go on and on. The list of issues to squabble over in the Church is legion.

So to base the question on whether a person should be allowed to post here based on whatever creeds he/she accepts is simply too broad to really address. Of course the question posed in the OP is also really broad as to whether the Church is teaching 'proper Christology.' I wonder if there are many or even any among us who would agree on every detail of what 'proper Christology' is? :)
 
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Philip_B

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Please if you are going to jump in and respond to my post to another, take the time to read what I posted and don't throw out questions that are against the SOF. I asked about your other creeds. You ignore that question. You ignore my statement that I was good with the Nicene Creed.


I challenge you again to answer the question asked. Of course the person originally asked the question also failed to address it.
Yes. I think the Nicene Creed is the line. The Apostles Creed is fine as it goes and the athanasian creed is incomprehensible to the modern mind, indeed it maybe three incomprehensibles!
 
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gordonhooker

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Yes. I think the Nicene Creed is the line. The Apostles Creed is fine as it goes and the athanasian creed is incomprehensible to the modern mind, indeed it maybe three incomprehensibles!

Yes Philip so it is, but you have to admit it sounds great when you try to recite it in church :)
 
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seeking.IAM

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Sometimes I read these threads and think we make Christianity far too complicated.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
How much does a child need to understand about Christology? It it not enough to believe, have faith, and be a faithful disciple?
 
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Philip_B

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Sometimes I read these threads and think we make Christianity far too complicated.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
How much does a child need to understand about Christology? It it not enough to believe, have faith, and be a faithful disciple?
Yes it is, because we are saved by Jesus, not by the correctness of our doctrine, however once Jesus is an important dimension in your life, you will want to get the things we say about him correct.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I read the creed. It was posted.

Are you referring to the thread in Traditional Christianity concerning the 2nd Council of Nicea? That isn't a creed.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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But that council said a person must believe that exact statement about Mary or they were (or should be) cursed and were not a Christian.

Context is necessary. The context of the 2nd Council of Nicea was that the emperor, Leo, had began a violent "reform" because he had become convinced that the reason the Roman (Byzantine) Empire had been losing battles (and territories) against the Muslims had to be because of some theological reason. At this time in history Islam was still quite new, and most Christians had not yet really grasped that Islam was a new religion altogether, but instead seemed to think that Islam was a heretical branch of Christianity. So from Leo's perspective the big religious difference was that Muslims rejected images completely, but Christians had images. So Leo sought to literally remove and destroy all images of Christ, of Mary, of the saints, everything. This image-smashing was called iconoclasm (literally image-smashing).

And it became a really huge deal. Because theologians at the time realized that the Iconoclasts weren't simply threatening physical images, but the underlying theology undermined the core and essential teachings of the Christian faith: That Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Like all previous councils, the core issue was a matter of Christology.

If Christ cannot be depicted as a man, because He is God, then the very doctrine of the Incarnation is threatened: Because God became man.

The relevant canon of Nicea II is sandwiched between statements concerning Christ. The point of the Marian canon is not to elevate Mary to deific status, but to assert her unique position as the mother of Jesus Christ. With roots in the solid affirmation that Jesus Christ is one undivided Person, both God and man; and so Mary is called Theotokos (God-bearer) because the Person who she conceived and carried to term in her womb, and gave birth to, is Himself God--the uncreated, eternal, Almighty God. Mary's importance had always been understood, so when the canon says:

"If anyone shall not confess the Holy Ever-Virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible," It does not mean that Mary is divine, it says she is to be regarded higher than every creature, not that she isn't herself a creature. And her status is not because she has divinity, or is deserving of worship; but because she is the mother of Jesus Christ. Mary's special place in the history of redemption is to be celebrated and revered, because she gave birth to the Eternal Word, the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord.

And also, "and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bore him, let him be anathema." Is again attached to this phrase: "since she bore him", it is Mary's unique connection to Christ-God, as His mother, that is being celebrated and honored here.

The emphases here are rooted in their Christological tradition: Jesus Christ is true God and man.

The statement is not "Worship Mary", but rather it condemns those who would deny that Mary is the birth-mother of Jesus Christ our God, who would ignore the fact that as His mother she does have a special place among the saints, and that she does pray for us. That Mary prays for us isn't a radical notion, since Scripture itself states that both the saints and angels pray for those on earth:

"Then the angel of the Lord said, 'O Lord of hosts, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which you have been angry these seventy years?'" - Zechariah 1:12

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried with a loud voice, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?'" - Revelation 6:9-10

Do I think the anathema is an immutable and infallible pronouncement? No.
Do I think I'm under a curse because I don't petition Mary or any of the saints for their prayers? No.
Do I think anyone else is? No.

Do I think the strong language made sense in the context of the times because what was really at stake wasn't what people thought about Mary, but because of the importance of affirming true doctrine concerning Jesus Christ? Mostly, yes.

I don't regard the canons to be some sort of immutable or infallible standard. The canons have changed and been amended over the course of history--they aren't infallible, divinely ordained, etc. They are rulings from the councils that address important matters that are primarily relevant for the time.

One of the canons from the First Council of Nicea says that if a catechumen was among those who lapsed during the time of persecution of Diocletian they are to spend three years as "hearers", forbidden from joining in the prayers of the other catechumens. The point was a discipline for those who had betrayed their faith lapsing during persecution, and so their period of discipleship was put on temporary hold until they showed themselves dedicated and repentant. Is this a timeless, eternal, divinely ordained discipline? No, of course not.

But that's the point. The canons are rulings put forward by councils to address certain issues, largely issues that are highly context-sensitive to the time and even location.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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thecolorsblend

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Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Or both?

And how do we address these problems in our church communities?
I don't know that this problem even can be addressed. There's a segment of the faith which basically relitigates Christianity every generation. During that process, more and more of the traditional faith gets lost. I think it's fair to ask if we'll even recognizably be members of the same faith in a few centuries at the rate things are going.

How do we fix this problem? Well, orthodoxy is the obvious answer. But I don't see that as a viable solution at the moment.
 
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