Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

ICONO'CLAST said:

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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Loren T. said:

Yep, that sums up Calvinism right there... Too bad for all the poor suckers who never get made willing and get sent to hell for something they were irresistibly caused to do.

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Loren T. said:

Yes this is a free will choice we make, daily, hourly and second by second. To be slaves to one or the other.

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ICONO'CLAST said:

TC has stated that he does not use that term...irresistable grace.
No one has to use the theological term as those who do not use it use scriptures to cover the teaching.
You have used it consistently incorrectly. Here is how it is used correctly;
1689 LBC: Chapter 10: "Of Effectual Calling"

nope....

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Loren T. said:

Huh? You just told me repeatedly that grace is always effecious. So how are they saying no to grace?

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ICONO'CLAST said:

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

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Loren T. said:

I've read that definition plenty, thanks. And it was perfectly summed up in that song quote, as I already stated. I don't see how that's any different than irresistible Grace.

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Loren T. said:

Oh look, previniant grace. How could Paul make it any clearer than you have a real and free choice? I doubt that he foresaw how Calvin would warp his teaching.

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Jayfrost123 said:

I have just fallen away. I experienced the Holy Spirit leaving my soul and being put back into the fallen world.

If any time in the future you desire with all your heart to draw near to God, wanting to find the truth to life, can God reconcile this relationship ?

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Loren T. said:

I have found many times in my walk with God that I had to repent of walking away. If you're still concerned about losing your salvation, that's a pretty good indication that the spirit has not totally abandoned you, and you can find your way back.

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ICONO'CLAST said:

You are confusing The saving work of God regenerating a person, with the ongoing struggle to mortify sin in our sanctification

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Jayfrost123 said:

I felt the Spirit literally go out like a candle. I know for sure that I am lost right now. I don't feel the concern. But is it possible for God to draw you to him in the future, if you sincerely in your heart want to know God and search after him?

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Loren T. said:

This is one of the special kinds of weirdness of Calvinism... You are brought irresistibly to salvation, but once there you to start working for santification. Apparently slave has a different meaning when you're a sinner than it does when your saved. But of course it really doesn't, the because even as a slave you still can choose who to obey both before and after salvation.

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Jayfrost123 said:

The Bible says God isn't willing any should perish, so does this mean that as long as you have the breathe of life your soul is able to draw near to God and be reconciled by believing?

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Loren T. said:

Well here's what I found in my own life..God can reveal himself at anytime, through most everything, but it's more likely to happen if I'm actively seeking, praying, and reading the word. Grieving the holy spirit is a serious thing, and it can be scary to not feel his presence any longer. But this also happens to the most devout people at times. It's not so much about the feelings, as it is about continuing to pursue God, even when you don't feel anything.

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Jayfrost123 said:

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I am lost and I no longer posses the Holy Spirit. I'm afraid I have done the unpardonable sin, because I want assurance that it is possible to draw near to God with your heart and submit your will to his in the future, if someone truly in their heart desires to search for God and give their soul back over to Christ through the blood, is this possible? When I read the Bible it is speaking to me as if I'm in deep danger.

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Johnny4ChristJesus said:

But how you translated it above is not what the verses you quoted say.

And your logic above is flawed.

If you are a sinner, and your will is free, that means using your free will, you have chosen to sin and you likely think you ways/actions/words/thoughts are correct--at least in a self-justification kind of way. So, why would you ever choose to stop sinning?

So, the idea that you are trained from day 1 to be self-centered and then suddenly one day--without God's help or any new realization that what you are doing is not in your best interests--decide you aren't going to do what has been instinctual, self-justifiable, and need-filling for many years--just isn't a rational argument.

Free will doesn't mean we can see all the options.

When I drank like a fish, a friend took me out drinking. Then, after I was way too drunk, asked me to drive. I said yes. After the accident that totaled his car, I chose to stop drinking. Why, because I had a new revelation that what I was doing was really not in my best interests, like I previously thought it was. So I chose to make a different choice.

Spiritually speaking: we are blinded by the God of this world (2 Cor 4:4) by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). We ALL (apart from Jesus) need God to open our eyes to the opportunity to choose Him. NOBODY will be able to say that they took those blinders off on their own. NOBODY will be able to say that they saved themselves from God's wrath or into the blissful place of heaven. Those are absolute impossibilities. We can make choices, but we can't do the work. God looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7) and He wants those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-4).

Once He opens our eyes, we get to make that choice. That doesn't belittle His Sovereignty or His Glory in any way. In fact, it makes it greater. It means those multitudes in heaven aren't on their knees worshipping Him simply because they were robots made for that purpose; but rather that they with the freedom to choose, chose Him who first chose us and was willing to die for us.

If God freed your will from the bondage to sin, why do you still sin? What if God freed your will to be able to choose Him without forcing Himself on you? Then verses like "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you will die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spriit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry 'Abba, Father.'" (Rom 8:12-15) And, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...." (Romans 8:1-2, 4) "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8) "As the Father has loved me so have I loved you: continue in my love. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (Jesus said in John 15:9-10) "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My father, which is in heaven." (Jesus said in Matthew 7:21)

Do you believe God made lucifer/satan prideful and then ultimately kicked satan out of heaven or did satan make that choice to become prideful? The angels that followed satan, did they choose that or did God mandate it? In short, did God create 1/3 of the angels with the expressed intent of throwing them in the lake of fire? Is that what you believe?

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