Which interpretation is correct?


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Curtis697

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"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron." 1 Timothy 4:1-2 NKJV

Conviction of sin means,
  1. The Holy Spirit hasn't abandoned you, &
  2. You still have a functioning conscience.
I feel no conviction.
 
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Hazelelponi

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The new testament is constantly describing God causing fear in the hearts of sinners. Upon Jesus' return, it will be a terrible and fearful day for the world. It says they will literally mourne when they see him. Scriptures in the epistles that i can pull up if I really need to, recommend unrepentant sinners to be fearfully looking forward to judgement. If fear is from Satan, why did demons tremble in fear at the sight of Jesus? What about the fear Pilate encountered when sentencing Jesus? How do you define fear? If anything it is condemnation. Something only those that are in Christ can be free from.

And condemnation gives way to love..fear always gives way to love because love is as much part of the nature of God as is His just-ness.

Yes we should fear His judgement. But that? That gives way to love.. we love the One who first loved us... who loved us SO much as to give His only begotten Son..

For you. To pay a debt you owe. To pay a debt I owe. And He bore that burden through death, and then because He was without sin the bonds of death could not hold HIM, and through His life we have life everlasting, our debt was paid and the path of reconciliation with God is here..

That is a lot of love for a bunch of people who don't even love him, who are nothing but ungrateful spoiled rotten ingrates...

So what can we do but love him back? Thats what He deserves and so much more!

Our fear of judgment Always gives way to His love.. fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - it was all for this moment. For our salvation.. that's what everything was for.. that is love.

Repent and see fear give way to love..
 
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Sketcher

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All prayers are highly appreciated. But as far as trying to counsel me.. I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.
Well, Peter came back, because the Lord drew him back. Reminds me of the parable of the lost sheep. Don't resist God anymore.
A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.
If what you heard was from God, then he said you're not beyond redemption, flat-out.
The prodigal son.
I have thought about that, however, that story seems to describe a backslider, rather than an apostate.
Why are you worse than he is?
 
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Curtis697

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Then what are you bothering us for? [Think about what I just typed...]
If i'm bothering you, or anyone else, then I don't want your or their help.
As i stated before, I feel no conviction in my spirit/heart. However, I have an intellectual understanding of where this path is leading me to. I know the severity of the situation and want to want to go back to God.
 
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Hazelelponi

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If i'm bothering you, or anyone else, then I don't want your or their help.
As i stated before, I feel no conviction in my spirit/heart. However, I have an intellectual understanding of where this path is leading me to. I know the severity of the situation and want to want to go back to God.

He is saying that if you "want to go back to God" then your obviously feeling some kind of conviction.

It might not be on your face in tears, but He's definitely convicting you of sin and your need for repentance. (Hence fear)

Don't keep ignoring this..
 
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Curtis697

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That wasn't the point that I was trying to make.

Neither of those can happen without the Holy Spirit being on-board. That it worries you IS conviction!

An apostate will convince himself that he doesn't need God or His forgiveness. That is the function of the departed Holy Spirit.

You can keep resisting God's invitation to repent, if you really want to. Then you really will become apostate (assuming that you had a true Salvation experience in the first place).

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 NKJV
I would love to believe that.. but I would just be taking your word for it.
 
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Curtis697

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Does it conflict with your understanding of God's Word?
I think it does. Judas iscariot cared. He tried to give the 40 silver coins back. He found no grace for repentance after becoming apostate. He felt so guilty that he killed himself.
Esau, another example, though it was more towards earthly inheritance.
I cannot think of one new testament example of a person completely falling away, to come back.
 
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Curtis697

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Do you mean like Peter denying Jesus three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed [Luke 22:54-62]?
And the rest of the Disciple fleeing for their lives during Jesus' arrest...?
(I guess that I can't think of any, either...
full
)
And that's where someone can point to the contrast between backslider and apostate
 
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Jayfrost123

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As I said before, I'm in this position. It's clearly something to do with the heart. The heart has became hardened and rebellious because of the deceitfulness of sin that we have given ourselves over too. The problem is that it's became normal therefore we're not even able to realize it.

Best hope is to get as many Christians to pray for you as possible and ask them to ask God to give you the desire to seek after God. We truly got saved before because the father drew us to him. I believe if a certain life event causes us to change our hearts and how we view life and God, I do think it is possible.
 
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Curtis697

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How will you know if it is correct if you are unsure of the answer?

What will be your gauge for correctness?
I don't know which of two interpretations of Hebrews 6 is correct. One of the two is. I can compare peoples people's answers to the broader context of scripture and pray on what lines up with Gods word
 
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Natsumi Lam

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The new testament is constantly describing God causing fear in the hearts of sinners. Upon Jesus' return, it will be a terrible and fearful day for the world. It says they will literally mourne when they see him. Scriptures in the epistles that i can pull up if I really need to, recommend unrepentant sinners to be fearfully looking forward to judgement. If fear is from Satan, why did demons tremble in fear at the sight of Jesus? What about the fear Pilate encountered when sentencing Jesus? How do you define fear? If anything it is condemnation. Something only those that are in Christ can be free from.

There is a spirit of fear, natural fear and fear of the Lord.

It depends on who and what you are ultimately fearing. It is a heart matter.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I don't know which of two interpretations of Hebrews 6 is correct. One of the two is. I can compare peoples people's answers to the broader context of scripture and pray on what lines up with Gods word

God desires your trust. At some point you have to let go of your own thinking and cling with all your might to Him..
 
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Sam91

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I have thought about that, however, that story seems to describe a backslider, rather than an apostate.
Having had the prodigal son on my mind all through reading your story on the other thread I fail to see how you can make that assumption. The prodigal son to me speaks of both.

Jesus didn't speak in terms of backsliding and apostate. These are conventions we have devised to interprete the Bible. Men seem to lose the essence of truth when studying too scholarly. I think it comes from relying on own understanding and man's wisdom. You see it here. People become more pharisaical and one fails to see the fruit of the spirit or Jesus' teachings in their words.

I do not think you have been abandoned by God. I think you are sat in the field with the pigs and still letting yourself get in the way. Pride, stubborness etc * You need to accept that You are no more unworthy than the rest of us. I pray that you can cast off you own understanding and listen to what Jesus said and says and not the things your brain, satan and us humans say. I pray that you hear His wisdom and not our own and that you embrace the gift and run with it. That you fix your eyes on Him and that you allow Him to reign as King in your life.

You are what is separating yourself from feeling the love of God right now. Let go of the chains of self condemnation and rest in Him and let Him teach you as only He can.

God bless you brother.

* ADDED AFTER and it is awfully proud of yourself to consider yourself so. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous. You can not be righteous on your own merit. You can not deserve salvation. Nothing you can try on your own can erase the past. You are trapped in this mess because of earthly wisdom. (Trust in Him instead of that.) Like I was. Hebrews 6:4 was my stumbling block for 15 years. My walk is still affected by self condemnation and get stuck trying to be good enough. When my eyes are fixed on Him, I can walk without sinning much. It is only when trusting in Him, not leaning on my own understanding that the fruit of the Spirit fully encompasses my heart and behaviour. Been learning this for over two years so far and still learning.
 
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AnglicanPeace

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You might have religious OCD/scrupulosity. That's what it sounds like to me, with incessant reading of scripture in detail and needing to follow it the letter of the law, the compulsion to ask the same question and the need for reassurance, which only leads to more doubt. So I can't reassure you. Reassurance is the kiss of death for OCD. Just keep walking in faith and hope for the best. And I'll pray for you to feel better.
 
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