Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

Douggg

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You can't get to the "little horn" without going through the "kings of Media and Persia", which YOU specifically cited.
The vision concerning the litte horn is time of the end in the text. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11. All of those visions contain prophecies about KINGDOMS, parts in each chapter are now ancient history - and parts are end times prophecy - all of them. There is a gap to the end times in ALL OF THEM.

ALL OF THEM are fulfilled by Jesus's Return. Jesus is Lord of Lords, King of Kings.
 
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DaDad

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The vision concerning the litte horn is time of the end in the text. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11. All of those visions contain prophecies about KINGDOMS, parts in each chapter are now ancient history - and parts are end times prophecy - all of them. There is a gap to the end times in ...
... NONE of them.

Certainly we have to account for the sequence of world empires, and there is a "time span" between the fall of the Roman Empire (~640 AD) and the rise of the "divided KINGDOM" (1914), but even THAT SPAN is accounted for in SCRIPTURE:

Daniel 11:2 ... and when he has become strong through his riches ...

But like you, I hate details. I'd much rather take a false premise and run, then have to spend the time to figure out what Scripture and History actually account.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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Douggg said:
...
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. ...
The vision concerning the little horn is ...
... impossible to resolve at without starting at the beginning of the Chapter, and arriving at the end.

I know History accounts that from 46BC to 31BC both Julius Caesar (Octavianus Augustus or Octavian) and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony) had a dual reign over the Roman Empire, but where in History do we find a dual Monarch over the Medo/Persian Empire:

539 - 530 BC ....... Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 BC ....... Cambyses
522 - 486 BC ....... Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 BC ....... Xerxes
465 - 423 BC ....... Artaxerxes I
423 BC ................ Xerxes II - few weeks
423 BC ................. Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 BC ....... Darius II
404 - 359 BC ....... Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 BC ....... Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 BC ................ Arses
338 - 330 BC ...... Darius III (Codomanus)

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382

And I understand. If I had a doctrine which couldn't be supported, I'd want to ignore the subject. -- Well, actually, if I was wrong I'd admit it, but perhaps my "first position" will make you feel better about misrepresenting both Scripture and History.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Douggg

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... NONE of them.
ALL OF THEM.

Daniel 2 - the Kingdom of God is brought to this earth as the ruling Kingdom by Jesus's Return
Daniel 7 - the Kingdom of God is possessed by the saints of the Most High by Jesus's Return
Daniel 8 - the little horn is broken by Jesus's Return
Daniel 9 - the 70 weeks are fulfilled by Jesus's Return
Daniel 11 - the willful king's time runs out by Jesus's Return
 
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DaDad

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ALL OF THEM.

Daniel 2 - the Kingdom of God is brought to this earth as the ruling Kingdom by Jesus's Return
Daniel 7 - the Kingdom of God is possessed by the saints of the Most High by Jesus's Return
Daniel 8 - the little horn is broken by Jesus's Return
Daniel 9 - the 70 weeks are fulfilled by Jesus's Return
Daniel 11 - the willful king's time runs out by Jesus's Return

No gaps. Certainly centuries of empires; decades of kingdom events; some "starting points"; but NO GAPS. -- NONE. -- NADA. -- ZERO. -- ZILCH.

But if it makes a false doctrine appear to "work", then by all means, it must be "true".

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Douggg

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No gaps. Certainly centuries of empires; decades of kingdom events; some "starting points"; but NO GAPS. -- NONE. -- NADA. -- ZERO. -- ZILCH.

But if it makes a false doctrine appear to "work", then by all means, it must be "true".

Thanks,
DaDad
Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11 ALL have gaps between the ancient fulfillment's and the end times fulfillment's.

Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman - all these were ancient empires, kingdoms. Then the gap in each chapter to the end times, concluding by Jesus's Return.

Daniel 2, in the days of the ten toes, the ten kings.
Daniel 7, in the days of the ten kings and the little horn
Daniel 8, in the days of the little horn
Daniel 9, in the days of the prince who shall come
Daniel 11, in the days of the willful king
 
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ToServe

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What *was* to come at that time (back when the NT was written - prior to 70 A.D.).

Notice the tense of Hebrews 9 (it doesn't say "He will mediate a new covenant")

Hebrews 9:15 New Living Translation (NLT)
15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

******************
There was a transition period, though......between the OC and new....that's why Hebrews states this (it was obsolete at the time Hebrews was written, it -the OC along with the temple and ancient Jerusalem- has now "disappeared"):

Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

You refered to Matthew 12:32 in support of your claim.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

How does one speak out against the Holy Spirit under the Old Covenant Temple construct?

This Age Jesus speaks of is the Age that his Holy Spirit ministry under the New Covenant Temple Construct is ushering in within that generation after his ascension and post Pentecost.

This Age has no theological bearing on the Old Covenant Temple, but is directly associated with the Holy Spirit Temple.

This Age is the Holy Spirit Temple for the unforgivable sin is against this New Covenant Holy Spirit Temple construct.

This Age is the New Testament Temple built on Christ's ministry and his body as the cornerstone of the newly built Holy Spirit Temple. Jesus said destroy this Temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days. This Temple and this Age as far as Jesus is concerned is the Holy Spirit Temple Age for the whole statement of Jesus is centred around the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit Temple which has nothing to do with the Old Covenant Temple.

Jesus is not making a claim of the newly built Holy Spirit Temple transition in 70AD after an insignificant carnal fleshly war that was finally being poured out upon the desolate, who were already desolate and without a spiritual Godly temple way back from Christ's ascension and post Pentecost.

The Age to come logically follows the antecedent this Age in context to the newly built temple. The Age to come is what is promised in this temporal Age through the Holy Spirit Seal guareenteing what is to come in the afterlife after our earthly house is dissolved.

This Seal was given in earnest in this Age for the purpose of the eternal Age to come in the afterlife when we as Testators bear our crosses to the grave in order to receive our eternal inheritance at Christ's appearing at the Final Judgement when he will judge the living and the dead.

This eternal inheritance according to Hebrews 9:15-17,27 can only be received after the Testator biologically dies for all men are destined to die once then judgement.

Paul also after he was to be put to death was looking forward to receiving his crown of life at Christ's Appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Jesus said be faithful even onto biologicaly death and I will give you a Crown of Life.

The Age to come is receiving what the Holy Spirit Seal guateentees as the promise to eternal life only after a witness carries their cross onto their grave.

Full Preterism is in apt of any covenantal understanding and it uses the haphazard and disjointed methodology like the Flat Earthers. FP takes isolated versus out of context with no recourse from the person saying those things actually means within exegetical reasoning and boundaries.

It is obvious that Jesus refering to this Age and the Age to come was refering to the newly built Temple post Pentecost as he sent his disciples in twos breathing on them the Holy Spirit as ushering in this Age right there and then and the implications of a transition is only applicable for the recipients of the New Temple notwithstanding the old temple which for 40 years is absent of the Holy Spirit and this goes back to the statement by Jesus that the unforgivable sin is against the Temple of this Age that is present of the Holy Spirit, whereas the old temple is already a desolate temple without the Holy Spirit and so there is no applied meaningful appeal to this Age being the desolate temple as no one within that temple construct can committ the unforgivable sin because the Holy Spirit is absent and so you have 40 years of the only Holy Spirit Temple Age leading to 70AD war.

Why would a carnal war be ever referred by Jesus in separating this Age from the Age to come?

Does God use the war of 68-75AD to make the transition between this Age and the Age to come?

What Seal of Guateentee is a carnal war that promises the Age to come?

It makes absolutely no sense!

I believe that Full Preterism is another gospel that tries to take away the hope and promise of eternal inheritance in the Age to come which is vested in the Holy Spirit Seal of Guateentee and not some carnal 7 year war that murdered people.

Either the 68-75AD war is the seal of Guateentee, guareenteing the Age to come or it is the Holy Spirit within this Age Temple construct?

Full Preterism is placing the hope and promise in the transition of recieving eternal inheritance on a carnal war whilst denying the hope and promise in the Holy Spirit and this is where I can pick out the two gospels in contention with one another, that is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the FP anti thesis gospel.
 
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BABerean2

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Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11 ALL have gaps between the ancient fulfillment's and the end times fulfillment's.

Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman - all these were ancient empires, kingdoms. Then the gap in each chapter to the end times, concluding by Jesus's Return.

Daniel 2, in the days of the ten toes, the ten kings.
Daniel 7, in the days of the ten kings and the little horn
Daniel 8, in the days of the little horn
Daniel 9, in the days of the prince who shall come
Daniel 11, in the days of the willful king

Most of your "gaps" are the time needed to make man-made doctrines work...

.
 
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Douggg

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Pick one, --any one --, and let's find out if what you assert is accurate. Deal?

Thanks,
DaDad
I can do all of them. Two here.

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise (Revelation 17:17): and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High (Revelation 13:6), and shall wear out the saints of the most High (Revelation 13:7), and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7).

26 But the judgment shall sit (Revelation 11:18), and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Revelation 11:15).

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

____________________________________________________________________

The Lord's prayer.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.



 
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iamlamad

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Revelation is not in order. There are things in Rev 12 that happen before any seals are opened, as shown. There are other things that happen in Rev 12 that occur during the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as Matt 24 proves.
Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


We can agree that the 6th seal will be opened before the 7th seal.....then it falls apart, as the 70th week starts at the 1st seal.
I have said over and over that Rev. 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis and has NO BEARING on chronology. Other than these first 5 verses, everything in chapter 12 comes AFTER the events of chapter 11, chapter 10, chapter 9. chapter 8, chapter 7, chapter 6 etc. A parenthesis does not count.

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as Matt 24 proves. How many times have you written this myth? Every time I call it what it is, MYTH. The entire 70th week is FUTURE to the 6th seal. Therefore the days of GT Jesus spoke of are found late in chapter 14 and in chapter 15. That is AFTER the midpoint of the week. Your theory simply does not work. Never has, and never will. Throw it away and get a new one!

Many people say "the tribulation" is Satan's wrath (I don't say it). Yet we know His [Satan's] wrath does not start until chapter 12 - after the midpoint - when he is cast down.
 
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iamlamad

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The vision concerning the litte horn is time of the end in the text. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11. All of those visions contain prophecies about KINGDOMS, parts in each chapter are now ancient history - and parts are end times prophecy - all of them. There is a gap to the end times in ALL OF THEM.

irrelevant.
The text says time of the end.

Antiochus was not a king of fierce countenance - he backed down from invading Egypt, intimidated by the Roman representative about the prospect of facing the Romans in war, in the famous line in the sand incident.

Antiochus's power was not mighty.

Antiochus did not stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus - to be broken not by hand '


That is preposterous statement when it says time of the end right in the text.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
I have just proved over and over BY THE TEXT that it is not about events future to us. The entire context is Persia and Greece. There is no way it is talking about end times EXCEPT that Antiochus was indeed a TYPE of the future Antichrist.

The text says the time of THEIR end. Whose? The Seleucid Empire. It is talking about Antiochus. Did you not see all the Commentators remarks? They are almost unanimous that it is about Antiochus. And for Good reason, it is the CONTEXT.

When Antiochus stood up against the High Priests He was coming against THEIR High Priest, Jesus Christ.

Face it, all the commentators disagree with you. the very text disagres with you. I am going to stick with the TEXT in context.

Verse 17: Time of WHAT END? CONTEXT my friend!

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

"The end" He is writing about is the end of the Grecian and Persian war! Greece won! Let's go on:

2 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, ...


WHOSE Kingdom, the Antichrist in our future? NO NO NO! The later time of the SELEUCID Kingdom! That is one of the four generals.

My friend, you cannot just pull verses out of their context!
 
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Choose Wisely

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I have said over and over that Rev. 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis and has NO BEARING on chronology. Other than these first 5 verses, everything in chapter 12 comes AFTER the events of chapter 11, chapter 10, chapter 9. chapter 8, chapter 7, chapter 6 etc. A parenthesis does not count.
Yes you did say that about the 1st 5 chapters.

Why you can't see that these verses are talking about the same event is beyond me. The powers of heaven are shaken and the stars fall from heaven. This is Satan and the fallen angels being cast to the earth.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Here we see another star falling from heaven. It is an angel with the key to the bottomless pit.
Rev 9
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as Matt 24 proves. How many times have you written this myth? Every time I call it what it is, MYTH.

Wow, Jesus tells you exactly what will happen in the endtimes. John tells you exactly the very same thing........From the tribulation.........the 6 seals........to the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It is the exact same picture give by Jesus and John. Then they both have a coming of Jesus. Then they both have a rapture...........IT'S THE EXACT SAME THING THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. But you can't see it because one says the moon will not give its light and one says the moon is as blood.

The entire 70th week is FUTURE to the 6th seal.
Entirely wrong. The wrath of God begins after the 6th seal........not the 70th week. That is over at the pre wrath rapture. The church is gone before the seals are opened.........pre trib rapture. The only place you can find the church is in heaven in
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Therefore the days of GT Jesus spoke of are found late in chapter 14 and in chapter 15.
Chapter 14 is ANOTHER VIEW of the tribulation. And at the end of the chapter you see Jesus coming on the clouds...........a pre wrath rapture. You see the same coming Rev 6. You see the same coming in Matt 24.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
That is AFTER the midpoint of the week.


Your theory simply does not work. Never has, and never will. Throw it away and get a new one!
What are you talking about it fits like a glove. The only thing you think you can find wrong is one says moon as blood and one says moon does not give its light.............and a blood moon doesn't give it's light. We see three comings of Jesus above. One in Rev 14 and one in Rev 6 and one in Matt 24. There is also one in Rev 19. So what are you going to do with these 4 comings of Christ. You think Matt 24 and Rev 19 are the same coming..........BUT THEY ARE NOT. Matthew 24 is a gathering. Rev 19 is Christ coming on a white horse. What are you going to do with all these comings? And of course there is the pretribulation coming in Rev 4 that you can't seem to find even though we can see the church in Rev 5.


Many people say "the tribulation" is Satan's wrath (I don't say it). Yet we know His wrath does not start until chapter 12 - after the midpoint - when he is cast down.
You are correct in that the tribulation is not Satan's wrath. However, Satan being cast to the earth is shown in Rev 6 with the stars falling from heaven. The midpoint is in the 1st 6 seals. Everything fits perfectly. The things you are saying do not fit. Don't believe it? What are you going to do with those 4 comings of Jesus?...............Really 5.
 
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Douggg

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Verse 17: Time of WHAT END? CONTEXT my friend!

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
I gave you the text of what vision and highlighted it on top of that in my post #159 in this thread.


13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, ...

WHOSE Kingdom, the Antichrist in our future? NO NO NO! The later time of the SELEUCID Kingdom! That is one of the four generals.

If it is one Seleucid kingdom- it would not be in the latter time of their Kingdom, in verse 23 would it, since it was four kingdoms in verse 22?

The problem you got is that there are four kingdoms in verse 22, none of which is their kingdom, because they are all separate with separate kings. In verse 23, the "their" kingdom refers to the Kingdom of the transgressors - the host given to the little horn. At the later time of their kingdom is the final stage of the EU, which has gone through several stages.

 
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Douggg

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I said choose ONE. I'm not going to address more than one at a time. If you don't want to choose ONE, then choose NONE.

Thanks,
DaDad
I choose all of them, to explain that they end by Jesus's return. You can address them by whichever one(s) you want. They are identified in my post(s).
 
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DaDad

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I choose all of them ...
  1. Then NONE. Which is probably a good thing, because you can't defend your assertion, and I don't want to waste my time with someone who won't accept the Facts which Scripture and History provide. So I guess it's a win-win.
  2. Either you pick which ONE you want, -- or see #1.
Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Douggg

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  1. Then NONE. Which is probably a good thing, because you can't defend your assertion, and I don't want to waste my time with someone who won't accept the Facts which Scripture and History provide. So I guess it's a win-win.
  2. Either you pick which ONE you want, -- or see #1.
Thanks,
DaDad
No, I am choosing all of them. You are choosing none because you have yet to address even one that I have.
 
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