Are women Christians and Jewish Christians still under law?

Hazelelponi

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It seems to me that your deliberately confusing issues, but if that makes you feel justified to accuse me of re-iterpreting scripture then it must be pointed out that our interpretations are just that. Have a good day.

No, I'm clearly not. Jew (as a nationality) and Gentile (those who aren't a part of that ethnic group) are grafted into the exact same tree without seam.

An adopted son is no less a son, such that the lack of blood is not seen, and this from a human father, so how much more our heavenly father?

There isnt any separation of promise between a bloodline and others, all the promises are for all of Israel (the group of people who are true Israel, the Church who belongs to Jesus). past, present and future.. There isn't a group still under the law..

It's wrong try and make a division where God made reconciliation of people in Him = one body, one Spirit = one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

There is no longer Jew (nationality) or Gentile (nationality) as scripture says:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

So why sit and say "Jew" is under law for their salvation? It's not biblical and is intellectually dishonest to read scripture in such a manner as to sow division.."jew" is now faith.

So yes, I agree with you that we are clearly unable to reconcile our own differences until we both start reading from the same scriptures.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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No, I'm clearly not. Jew (as a nationality) and Gentile (those who aren't a part of that ethnic group) are grafted into the exact same tree without seam.

An adopted son is no less a son, such that the lack of blood is not seen, and this from a human father, so how much more our heavenly father?

There isnt any separation of promise between a bloodline and others, all the promises are for all of Israel (the group of people who are true Israel, the Church who belongs to Jesus). past, present and future.. There isn't a group still under the law..

It's wrong try and make a division where God made reconciliation of people in Him = one body, one Spirit = one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

There is no longer Jew (nationality) or Gentile (nationality) as scripture says:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

So why sit and say "Jew" is under law for their salvation? It's not biblical and is intellectually dishonest to read scripture in such a manner as to sow division.."jew" is now faith.

So yes, I agree with you that we are clearly unable to reconcile our own differences until we both start reading from the same scriptures.
Just to clear up our own little differences ... Jewish men and Gentile women are not under law, which I think we both agree on. Abba being Father we can both agree about. Adoption I believe is a misinterpretation because Christians are of the actual seed uncorrupted. Grafted in means that the root is the same but the branches are not.

Judaism produces no fruit as seen by the tree withered. Sorry if this interpretation is not sophisticated enough for you, but rest assured that others do understand the references even if you don’t. Part of the problem is what you are demonstrating now by being inflexible and demanding a ritualistic, legalistic interpretation.

The thread is to dispel the belief that there are divisions so to accuse me of setting out to do so is just wrong.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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....
Ruth was the means of bringing into the picture the analogy of the Kinsman Reedemer representing Christ's work just as male and female are representative of Christ and the church.


...
Every time prophesy has predicted a new branch of the family as being the chosen one a fresh risk, humanly speaking, is involved.

The book of Ruth's key note is ‘Kinsman Redeemer’ stated 30 x as kinsman, redeemer, near kinsman, next of kin, kindred. Redemption occurs 5x
Immanuel had to first became human along with mankind in order to have the ability and the right to redeem. Boaz means Ability. He (Jesus) is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him. Boaz purchased the land of Elimelech (in Bethlehem) along with Ruth as his wife.
Christ also purchased the church with His own blood, and He loved the church and gave Himself for it.

Individually Ruth also speaks to every one to make a decision and place trust under the wings of God who wants to redeem all from their wanderings. Glean from the scripture in the field there to feed on. And also work in the harvest field as did Ruth.
Union with Christ is the goal obtained for Him as it was exemplified with Ruth and Boaz, seen in the NT as the abiding of the branch in the vine. Any turning away to seek our own way away from Abba's family is remedied in a closer union with Christ.
 
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Another noteworthy aspect of the book of Ruth is the decendancy from Perez thru the tribe of Judah. Pherez’s mother was Tamar who is also in Jesus’ genealogy, outcast and destitute.

Ruth 4:11-13
11 And all the people that were in the gate and the elders said, We are witnesses. Jehovah make the woman that cometh into thy house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel; and acquire power in Ephratah, and make thyself a name in Bethlehem;
12 and let thy house become like the house of Pherez, whom Tamar bore to Judah, of the seed which Jehovah shall give thee of this young woman.
13 And Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife; and he went in unto her, and Jehovah gave her conception, and she bore a son.

Ruth 4:18-22
18 Now these are the generations of Pherez. Pherez begot Hezron,
19 and Hezron begot Ram, and Ram begot Amminadab,
20 and Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon,
21 and Salmon begot Boaz, and Boaz begot Obed,
22 and Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David.

Genesis 38:28-30
28 And it came to pass when she brought forth, that one stretched out his hand, and the midwife took it and bound round his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
29 And it came to pass as he drew back his hand, that behold, his brother came out; and she said, How hast thou broken forth! on thee be the breach! And they called his name Pherez.
30 And afterwards came out his brother, round whose hand was the scarlet thread; and they called his name Zerah.​

Both Pherez and Zerah are named too in Christ’s genealogy. Hebrew name studies show that Zerah is actually a girls name. (Sarah)

Matthew 1
1 Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Juda and his brethren;
3 and Juda begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom, and Esrom begat Aram,​
 
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lsume

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I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

I don't understand their semantics to back up their statements. Can this be discussed using scripture for and against the argument please.

Examples would be from @Dave-W (posted below) and I think I also heard @RDKirk expressing the same semantic, if they could contribute to the thread would be appreciated.

Myself I don't believe there is a difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, women or men in the accomplishments of Christ because that simply was the point of His mission was to make whole the body. I believe Paul used metaphors that people don't get past to find the truth. But I find that the metaphors are used as truth that I believe are really a lie are being propagated.

I prefer to stay out of that debate and would just like to hear the semantics it's coming from. Thanks

Why do some women contribute to their own oppression?


I thought that curse was reversed at the cross?
Not “reversed,” but partly nullified. The full nullification will not occur until the very end, when we no longer have to deal with sickness or death.​

Hannah's prayer


Good point. Do you believe that when Paul vowed that he was treading the line between old and new?
Not really. It boils down to the issue brought up at the First Jerusalem council in Acts 15 - which exempted GENTILE converts from following the Law of Moses. It did NOT include Jews who came to faith in Messiah. They still had (and HAVE) to follow the Law in a New Covenant way. .......

If that were true why would Gentile women still be inclusive. Makes no sense.​

Gal.3

  1. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Rom.1 Verses 16 to 17

  1. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The circucision
 
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lsume

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I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

I don't understand their semantics to back up their statements. Can this be discussed using scripture for and against the argument please.

Examples would be from @Dave-W (posted below) and I think I also heard @RDKirk expressing the same semantic, if they could contribute to the thread would be appreciated.

Myself I don't believe there is a difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, women or men in the accomplishments of Christ because that simply was the point of His mission was to make whole the body. I believe Paul used metaphors that people don't get past to find the truth. But I find that the metaphors are used as truth that I believe are really a lie are being propagated.

I prefer to stay out of that debate and would just like to hear the semantics it's coming from. Thanks

Why do some women contribute to their own oppression?


I thought that curse was reversed at the cross?
Not “reversed,” but partly nullified. The full nullification will not occur until the very end, when we no longer have to deal with sickness or death.​

Hannah's prayer


Good point. Do you believe that when Paul vowed that he was treading the line between old and new?
Not really. It boils down to the issue brought up at the First Jerusalem council in Acts 15 - which exempted GENTILE converts from following the Law of Moses. It did NOT include Jews who came to faith in Messiah. They still had (and HAVE) to follow the Law in a New Covenant way. .......

If that were true why would Gentile women still be inclusive. Makes no sense.​

Gal.3

  1. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Rom.1 Verses 16 to 17

  1. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The true circumcision of the heart is what counts and not the physical kind.
 
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Lulav

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JoeP222w

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I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

I don't understand their semantics to back up their statements. Can this be discussed using scripture for and against the argument please.

Examples would be from @Dave-W (posted below) and I think I also heard @RDKirk expressing the same semantic, if they could contribute to the thread would be appreciated.

Myself I don't believe there is a difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, women or men in the accomplishments of Christ because that simply was the point of His mission was to make whole the body. I believe Paul used metaphors that people don't get past to find the truth. But I find that the metaphors are used as truth that I believe are really a lie are being propagated.

I prefer to stay out of that debate and would just like to hear the semantics it's coming from. Thanks

Why do some women contribute to their own oppression?


I thought that curse was reversed at the cross?
Not “reversed,” but partly nullified. The full nullification will not occur until the very end, when we no longer have to deal with sickness or death.​

Hannah's prayer


Good point. Do you believe that when Paul vowed that he was treading the line between old and new?
Not really. It boils down to the issue brought up at the First Jerusalem council in Acts 15 - which exempted GENTILE converts from following the Law of Moses. It did NOT include Jews who came to faith in Messiah. They still had (and HAVE) to follow the Law in a New Covenant way. .......

If that were true why would Gentile women still be inclusive. Makes no sense.​

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I think it's awesome that there is consensus on this topic.
Romans 2:25-29
25 For circumcision benefits you if you observe the law, but if you are a lawbreaker, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if an uncircumcised man keeps the law’s requirements, will his uncircumcision not be counted as circumcision? 27 A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter of the law and circumcision. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter. That man’s praise is not from men but from God.

Ezekiel 43:7 a
and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

Psalms 22:3
Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Circumcised of the heart are those that ‘praise’ God which is what is meant by a Jew/Israel inwardly.

What about the term Circumcision of the heart? My definition that was worked out from a conversation with a prominent Messianic on the forum ..

Circumcision of the heart ~~ being a mental attitude that an individual acts upon so therefore isn't directly provable but must be inferred from surrounding facts and circumstances. It's a state of mind with which the act is done or omitted. Differing from motive, which is what prompts a person to act or to fail to act.

An attitude that in Christian terms is referred to as circumcision of the heart. Outward acts of the old circumcision covenant has been replaced with the covenant of inner acts. The spirit of the law takes the law and applies it to the heart where Christ abides and in yielding (which is the state of mind) to the law in obedience it causes growth within. Something the old law could never do.

Living by faith and not by sight from the beginning is a mental assent, a yielding of self that takes place within. Faith comes from hearing but not all that hear believe. Only those who believe receive. Without believing there is no eternal life, only condemnation … see Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13

Because we stand before Him rightly accepted thru Christ He becomes to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption to everyone who believes .. see Philippians 3:9
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I think circumcision of the heart is also the place from which division of works of the law can be decifered. Works are also inward (heartfelt) coming from insight into His word, believed and from belief springs action naturally (from the new nature growth). Thoughts?
 
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Basil the Great

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Probably 99% of the Christian posters here will say that Jews who convert to Christianity are no longer obligated to keep the Passover feast. Most of you, perhaps 75-80%, will say that when the New Testament talks about eternal punishment, it means that said punishment is forever, never ending.
So, let us look at the command to keep the Passover feast from Exodus 12:14 from a few different versions.

(1) "And this day shall be unto you a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." (English Revised Version)

(2) "This day is to be a memorial for you and you are to celebrate it as a festival to the Lord. You are to celebrate it as a perpetual ordinance from generation to generation." (International Standard Version)

(3) "This day shall be for you a memorial, and you shall keep it as a feast to Yahweh: throughout your generations you shall keep it a feast as an ordinance forever." (World English Bible)

(4) "And this day shall be unto you a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." (King James 2000 Bible)

Note, the command for Jews to keep the Passover feast does not say to keep it until the Messiah comes or until the son of God arrives or until the Temple is destroyed. No, the command uses the term "perpetual" or "forever".

Based upon the commandment in Exodus, it would seem that Jews who convert to Christianity better think long and hard before they cease keeping the Passover feast.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Probably 99% of the Christian posters here will say that Jews who convert to Christianity are no longer obligated to keep the Passover feast. Most of you, perhaps 75-80%, will say that when the New Testament talks about eternal punishment, it means that said punishment is forever, never ending.
So, let us look at the command to keep the Passover feast from Exodus 12:14 from a few different versions.

(1) "And this day shall be unto you a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." (English Revised Version)

(2) "This day is to be a memorial for you and you are to celebrate it as a festival to the Lord. You are to celebrate it as a perpetual ordinance from generation to generation." (International Standard Version)

(3) "This day shall be for you a memorial, and you shall keep it as a feast to Yahweh: throughout your generations you shall keep it a feast as an ordinance forever." (World English Bible)

(4) "And this day shall be unto you a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." (King James 2000 Bible)

Note, the command for Jews to keep the Passover feast does not say to keep it until the Messiah comes or until the son of God arrives or until the Temple is destroyed. No, the command uses the term "perpetual" or "forever".

Based upon the commandment in Exodus, it would seem that Jews who convert to Christianity better think long and hard before they cease keeping the Passover feast.
When things fit patterns I don't think they should be dismissed as interpreted to preferred outcome. They should instead be investigated. 2c
At passover the Israelites needed to enter into their houses and remain there because the blood had been sprinkled upon that abode. Exodus 12:13, Exodus 12:22-23

The same principle applies to Christians, with no doubt the same warning, in participation of identification with Christ by entering into Him and remaining in Him … see Ephesians 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:30, John 15:4, Galatians 5:2-4

The house and the blood were inseparable, likewise Christ and His redemption are one. The sinner becomes one with the substitute and the believer in Christ is saved from God’s judgement by the redeeming blood of Christ … see Romans 5:9 Just as Noah also had to be in the ark to be to be saved. The pattern has continued thru Noah, Israel and into the NT blood of Christ.

The Noahic covenant saved 8 people that passed thru the waters, while a nation was saved at Passover now Jesus has become our passover lamb... see 1 Corinthians 5:7 That illustrates how believers, by being in Christ … see 1 Corinthians 1:30, Ephesians 1:4 were crucified with Christ … see Romans 6:6, 2 Corinthians 5:14, Galatians 2:20 a and also resurrected with Christ Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 2:12, Colossians 3:1 and seated in the heavenlies. Ephesians 2:6-7

The pattern observed may be anything that custom dictates but without a circumcised heart it avails nothing when all is said and done.

But frankly I see no correlation as to how women fit into that pattern other than the custom being the pattern and in understanding what the pattern represents the fulfillment must be to God in reverence to Him alone. IE: Praise in heartfelt relationship to Him, because where He is so are we in this world. see 1 John 4:17
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

This is not correct, the curse has not been removed for men nor women. The curse on the man was that he had to work to earn a living. There are not many men who don't still have to do that. The curse on women remains, child birth and submission to her husband. However God is in the business of reducing the impact of the curse on his people. We inherit the blessing of Abraham in Christ, a part of that blessing was to be blessed as you come in and as you go out, be blessed in your food bowl, and your possessions. Married couples are also asked to "submit to one another", and husbands are told to love their wives, so the husbands headship is not totalitarian.

It is mainly in the NT that women are told to be submissive to their husbands, it is a relatively new testament idea, so the curse in its totality is not lifted, the wife is to submit to their husband, but the husband is to love and be thoughtful of their wife.
 
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This is not correct, the curse has not been removed for men nor women. The curse on the man was that he had to work to earn a living. There are not many men who don't still have to do that. The curse on women remains, child birth and submission to her husband. However God is in the business of reducing the impact of the curse on his people. We inherit the blessing of Abraham in Christ, a part of that blessing was to be blessed as you come in and as you go out, be blessed in your food bowl, and your possessions. Married couples are also asked to "submit to one another", and husbands are told to love their wives, so the husbands headship is not totalitarian.

It is mainly in the NT that women are told to be submissive to their husbands, it is a relatively new testament idea, so the curse in its totality is not lifted, the wife is to submit to their husband, but the husband is to love and be thoughtful of their wife.
1 Corinthians 11
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. [ Head Coverings ] Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. ...​
It’s still stated, obviously, that it is traditions Paul is recommending. Imitating him as he is imitating Christ is in fact the recommendation to be in submission to the Father,

unless the point is to usurp God. <insert abolition arguments here>

Submission to each other is what Jesus commanded and exemplified in washing each others feet and telling us that the one who leads must be the servant, not lording over others.

Be the servant, not the one being served by anyone other than God, who Himself is in the place of our help in times of need.
 
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In a feeble attempt to soften the busting a bit :sorry: the curse of the ground and childbearing is associated with the flesh that is awaiting redemption and doesn't deal with the spiritual sense that Paul taught rather than law, which he did not. Except in the spiritual sense. Fighting the thorns to produce growth is very much still with us and … childbearing as a saving principle I believe is very important also but in the spiritual sense that Paul also spoke of in terms of spiritual birth in others, which is part of evangelizing. Jm2c :wave:
 
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I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

I don't understand their semantics to back up their statements. Can this be discussed using scripture for and against the argument please.

Examples would be from @Dave-W (posted below) and I think I also heard @RDKirk expressing the same semantic, if they could contribute to the thread would be appreciated.

Myself I don't believe there is a difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, women or men in the accomplishments of Christ because that simply was the point of His mission was to make whole the body. I believe Paul used metaphors that people don't get past to find the truth. But I find that the metaphors are used as truth that I believe are really a lie are being propagated.

I prefer to stay out of that debate and would just like to hear the semantics it's coming from. Thanks

Why do some women contribute to their own oppression?


I thought that curse was reversed at the cross?
Not “reversed,” but partly nullified. The full nullification will not occur until the very end, when we no longer have to deal with sickness or death.​

Hannah's prayer


Good point. Do you believe that when Paul vowed that he was treading the line between old and new?
Not really. It boils down to the issue brought up at the First Jerusalem council in Acts 15 - which exempted GENTILE converts from following the Law of Moses. It did NOT include Jews who came to faith in Messiah. They still had (and HAVE) to follow the Law in a New Covenant way. .......

If that were true why would Gentile women still be inclusive. Makes no sense.​
The wages of sin was death but Adam didn't die immediately upon sin. What this reveals is that death came after decay and even today, when we are born, the clock begins to tick toward our demise.

Another curse was directly placed on women, pain in childbirth. So the question is asked, "Didn't Yeshua reverse the curse" and the answer is "yes and no." You see, he did the work needed to reverse the curse, and now has the right and power to perfect anything he desires, but he hasn't implemented that yet, this is something he will do when he returns. So the work that gave him a right to perfect has been done, but the perfection stands ahead of us.
 
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The wages of sin was death but Adam didn't die immediately upon sin. What this reveals is that death came after decay and even today, when we are born, the clock begins to tick toward our demise.

Another curse was directly placed on women, pain in childbirth. So the question is asked, "Didn't Yeshua reverse the curse" and the answer is "yes and no." You see, he did the work needed to reverse the curse, and now has the right and power to perfect anything he desires, but he hasn't implemented that yet, this is something he will do when he returns. So the work that gave him a right to perfect has been done, but the perfection stands ahead of us.
In the physical sense yes, but spiritually He can change the barren to fruition instantly. The removal of pain and suffering stands ahead of us as the birth pangs of the earth unfold.
 
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