Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

Douggg

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Therefore, what you are suggesting is just not possible and cannot be the intent of the Author. We really don't know what the "stars" are that fall. It could be a meteor shower. It could be God sent angels down. We just don't know. Neither do we know what it means that "the heavens departed as a scroll." The stars we see did not disappear for they are mentioned later as being dimmed.
The sixth seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29-30.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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Douggg

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When Daniel penned the word "end" several times the context is the Ram and the Goat. This verse tells us the accurate time:

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
I corrected a typo you made. Verse 23, not 3.

Anyway, "their kingdom" is the kingdom of the transgressors - which that kingdom is the EU in the latter time of it, i.e. its final form when the little horn becomes the leader of it. We are closing in on that taking place.

The transgression of desolation is end times - and is the 2Thessalonians2:4 event of the Antichrist going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God - that Paul said would be one of the things that the beginning of the Day of the Lord is hinged on.

It is time of the end in the text of Daniel 8. And it is time of the end in fulfillment in 2Thessalonians2:4.
 
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iamlamad

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We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped. But they have to be started again in order to be stopped - which started again is on day 220. And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27.



****
"We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped".

will be? They were and are stopped.

Didn't say specific day .... it was the ending of the need of the sacrificial system ( year when Jesus was sacrificed ... Jesus was/is the final sacrifice .... granted it took a few years for the practice of it to totally stop ... they didn't have email and TV ;o) joking .... but the point is they stopped .... the need for them to continue was stopped at the cross.

Hebrews 10

7 Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:

I have come to do Your will, O God.’”

... 8 In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are required by the Law) {Mosaic Law - sacrificial system}. 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation). 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

ok .... so you put forth a lot of theology that's fine we may or may not get to all the discussion about all that .... What was the purpose of the earthly sanctuaries? On Mt. Sinai God told Moses to put the sanctuary system (on earth) in place and with significant detail. Why? And what about all those details and why so detailed? Why? What is Jesus doing in heaven right now?

No need for sacrifices, priests etc. nor the earthly sanctuary/system. The earthly sanctuary(s) were on earth so we would understand the "real sanctuary" (in heaven) that is and always has been in heaven. Jesus is our high priest ....

Psalm 77
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

A lot to consider.

God Bless.
We don't have enough information? I disagree: Daniel told us the abomination event that would stop teh daily sacrifices would also divide the week into two halves. The 1260 days written in Revelation should be proof enough this event WILL divide the week into two halves. What many people don't know yet, is that the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that every time the man of sin will enter the holy of holy's and declare that he is the God of the Jews (and of the Muslims).

Perhaps you were quoting someone else on that. If so, sorry.

The truth is, the Jews still imagine they are under the Old Covenant yet, and they will build a new temple - they will start the daily sacrifices again, and the man of sin will enter it and declare he is God.

If we believe the latter chapters in Ezekiel, there will be a Millennial temple and sacrifices will again take place. We can only guess they will be for remembrance - a looking back on what Jesus did.
 
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iamlamad

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I corrected a typo you made. Verse 23, not 3.

Anyway, "their kingdom" is the kingdom of the transgressors - which that kingdom is the EU in the latter time of it, i.e. its final form when the little horn becomes the leader of it. We are closing in on that taking place.

The transgression of desolation is end times - and is the 2Thessalonians2:4 event of the Antichrist going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God - that Paul said would be one of the things that the beginning of the Day of the Lord is hinged on.

It is time of the end in the text of Daniel 8. And it is time of the end in fulfillment in 2Thessalonians2:4.
No no no! Read the CONTEXT: the context of the entire chapter is Persia and Greece. You are trying to pull all that out of its context. Sorry, but nothing in that chapter is for our future. It was for Daniel's future, not ours. Read the chapter again! Thanks for the correction.
 
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Douggg

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No no no! Read the CONTEXT: the context of the entire chapter is Persia and Greece. You are trying to pull all that out of its context. Sorry, but nothing in that chapter is for our future. It was for Daniel's future, not ours. Read the chapter again! Thanks for the correction.
Most of the context is about the little horn of the time of the end. The first 8 verses are about Persia and Greece. Our future is Daniel's future, as well, btw.
Daniel 12:13.

Daniel 8:20-22 is the angel's explanation of the first 8 verses, Persia/Greece.

Daniel 8:22 ends the Persia/Greece vision explanation by the angel. Alexander and the four breakup kingdoms.

When it gets to verse 23, it is the kingdom of the trangessors - kingdom singular. Differently, in verse 22 it is kingdoms plural. Persia, Greece, the break ups, are the historic kingdoms. Standing apart from those kingdoms - "Their" kingdom (singular in the text) is the kingdom of the transgressors, the host the little horn is given. There is no connection between verse 22 and 23.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

______________________________________________________________________
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
_____________________________________________________________________

The host given him is the EU, final form, the kingdom of the ten kings in Revelation 17:17.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The person starts as the little horn. At the end of his time, he will have become the beast. And at the end, convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus....

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The vision of the little horn is time of the end. It is the same person described as the little horn, as well, in Daniel 7.
 
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DaDad

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20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. ...
Interesting. I know History accounts that from 46BC to 31BC both Julius Caesar (Octavianus Augustus or Octavian) and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony) had a dual reign over the Roman Empire, but where in History do we find a dual Monarch over the Medo/Persian Empire:

539 - 530 BC ....... Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 BC ....... Cambyses
522 - 486 BC ....... Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 BC ....... Xerxes
465 - 423 BC ....... Artaxerxes I
423 BC ................ Xerxes II - few weeks
423 BC ................. Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 BC ....... Darius II
404 - 359 BC ....... Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 BC ....... Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 BC ................ Arses
338 - 330 BC ...... Darius III (Codomanus)

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382

Are you guys making stuff up?

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Douggg

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Interesting. I know History accounts that from 46BC to 31BC both Julius Caesar (Octavianus Augustus or Octavian) and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony) the Roman Empire had a dual reign, but where in History do we find a dual Monarch for the Medo/Persian Empire:

It is a separate issue from the discussion of the little horn person - who is time of the end.
 
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iamlamad

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Most of the context is about the little horn of the time of the end. The first 8 verses are about Persia and Greece. Our future is Daniel's future, as well, btw.
Daniel 12:13.

Daniel 8:20-22 is the angel's explanation of the first 8 verses, Persia/Greece.

Daniel 8:22 ends the Persia/Greece vision explanation by the angel. Alexander and the four breakup kingdoms.

When it gets to verse 23, it is the kingdom of the trangessors - kingdom singular. In verse 22 it is kingdoms plural. "Their" kingdom (singular in the text) is the kingdom of the transgressors, the host the little horn is given. There is no connection between verse 22 and 23.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

______________________________________________________________________
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
_____________________________________________________________________

The host given him is the EU, final form, the kingdom of the ten kings in Revelation 17:17.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The person starts as the little horn. At the end of his time, he will have become the beast. And at the end, convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus....

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The vision of the little horn is time of the end. It is the same person described at the little horn, as well, in Daniel 7.
 
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iamlamad

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Most of the context is about the little horn of the time of the end. The first 8 verses are about Persia and Greece. Our future is Daniel's future, as well, btw.
Daniel 12:13.

Daniel 8:20-22 is the angel's explanation of the first 8 verses, Persia/Greece.

Daniel 8:22 ends the Persia/Greece vision explanation by the angel. Alexander and the four breakup kingdoms.

When it gets to verse 23, it is the kingdom of the trangessors - kingdom singular. Differently, in verse 22 it is kingdoms plural. Persia, Greece, the break ups, are kingdoms. Standing apart from those kingdoms - "Their" kingdom (singular in the text) is the kingdom of the transgressors, the host the little horn is given. There is no connection between verse 22 and 23.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

______________________________________________________________________
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
_____________________________________________________________________

The host given him is the EU, final form, the kingdom of the ten kings in Revelation 17:17.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The person starts as the little horn. At the end of his time, he will have become the beast. And at the end, convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus....

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The vision of the little horn is time of the end. It is the same person described at the little horn, as well, in Daniel 7.

23: "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. NIV

New American Standard Bible
"In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Near the end of their kingdoms, when the rebels have reached the full measure of their sin, an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne.

International Standard Version
"Toward the end of their rule, as the desecrations proceed, an insolent king will arise, proficient at deception.

As you can see, "kingdom" cannot be supported by the Hebrew word behind it as the only possible translation.

22 Now that being broken, whereas
four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of
their rule, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Verse 22 is speaking of Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus, and Seleucus. So verse 23 is merely saying, in the later part of "their rule, or Cassander's, Ptolemy's, Antigonus', and Seleucus' rule.

As I said, this ENTIRE CHAPTER is about history, not about future.

Pulpit commentary: The Greek versions read, "their sins," as if it were the iniquities of the successors of Alexander that had become full, and thus afforded the occasion of the appearance of Epiphanes.

Gill's Commentary: And in the latter time of their kingdom,.... Toward the close of the kingdom of the four kings that divided Alexander's kingdom; for though they were four distinct kings, and had four separate kingdoms, yet these all belonged to one kingdom or monarchy, the Grecian empire; and when that was decreasing, and coming into the hands of the Romans, there rose up, stood, and flourished awhile, King Antiochus, afterwards described, who began to reign in the hundred and thirty seventh year of the Seleucidae,

And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.'' (1 Maccabees 1:10)

a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up; meaning Antiochus; as is generally agreed, both by Jewish and Christian interpreters

Benson Commentary: And in the latter end of their kingdom — When their power was diminishing, and the Roman empire beginning to be established in Greece...

...transgressors were come to the full, and that it was in the latter time of the Macedonian empire, when what follows took place. A king of fierce countenance shall stand up — This is a very just character of Antiochus,...

Barnes Notes: And in the latter time of their kingdom - When it shall be drawing to an end. All these powers were ultimately absorbed in the Roman power; and the meaning here is, that taking the time from the period of their formation - the division of the empire after the battle of Ipsus (see the notes at Daniel 8:8), until the time when all would be swallowed up in the Roman dominion, what is here stated - to wit, the rise of Antiochus - would be in the latter portion of that period.

Matthew Poole Commentary: In the latter time of their kingdom, i.e. when they were come to the height, and beginning to decline. It notes that time when the Romans began to seize part of the Grecian kingdom,

Geneva Study Bible:
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of {h} fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
(h) Noting that this Antiochus was impudent and cruel, and also crafty so that he could not be deceived.

Cambridge Bible notes: in the latter time of their kingdom] in the closing period of the rule of the Diadochi (which the author pictures as brought altogether to an end at the death of Antiochus).

Expositors Bible Commentary:
With one only of the four kingdoms, and with one only of its kings, is the vision further concerned-with the kingdom of the Seleueidae, and with the eighth king of the Dynasty, Antiochus Epiphanes. In this chapter, however, a brief sketch only of him is furnished. Many details of the minutest kind are subsequently added.

Gaebelein's Annotated Bible:
Then a little horn appeared out of one of these divisions; it sprung up out of Syria. This little horn is of course not the little horn mentioned in the previous chapter, for the little horn in Daniel 7:1-28has its place in connection with the fourth beast (Rome), while this one comes from a division of the third beast, the Graeco-Macedonian monarchy.

History does not leave us in doubt of how and when this great prophetic vision was fulfilled. This little horn is the eighth king of the Seleucid dynasty. He is known by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes;

Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary :
A little horn. Antiochus Epiphanes, a descendant of Seleucus.

Scofield Notes: Margin king of fierce countenance:i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes who arose out of Syria, one of the "four kingdoms," B.C. 170.

I did find ONE commentary that suggest this was for our future. It seems then that you are VASTLY outnumbered in your theory by he commentators.

The host given him was Antiochus's army.
This is a different little horn, but is a TYPE of the Antichrist.
If I were you I would READ these commentators and see why they wrote what they did. I would also camp out on Daniel 8 until you get it.

As I said in the beginning, you cannot pull verses out of their context: the entire context of chapter 8 is Persia vs Greece. There is not even one verse that refers to our future.
 
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iamlamad

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Interesting. I know History accounts that from 46BC to 31BC both Julius Caesar (Octavianus Augustus or Octavian) and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony) had a dual reign over the Roman Empire, but where in History do we find a dual Monarch over the Medo/Persian Empire:

539 - 530 BC ....... Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 BC ....... Cambyses
522 - 486 BC ....... Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 BC ....... Xerxes
465 - 423 BC ....... Artaxerxes I
423 BC ................ Xerxes II - few weeks
423 BC ................. Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 BC ....... Darius II
404 - 359 BC ....... Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 BC ....... Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 BC ................ Arses
338 - 330 BC ...... Darius III (Codomanus)

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382

Are you guys making stuff up?

Thanks,
DaDad
The Ptolemaic and the Seleucid were the final two legs of the Grecian empire.
I wonder where you got the idea of duel...
 
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mkgal1

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Since Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit to the recipients of his Church, then the NT Age temporal is this Age and the Permanent Age that we hope for is what guarantees us in this Age what is to come after it ends, this Age as far as Christ was concerned is the Holy Spirit Temple construct age.

21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The Permanent Age to come is after biological death that guareenteess us our inheritance as Testators (Hebrews 9:15-17,27) after our earthly house is dissolved and this underpins our redemption of the Age post NT guaranteeing Age of the Holy Spirit Seal of God, meaning promise.

This Age is NT temporal and the Age to come is our redemption in the Permanent eternal (never ending) Age to come.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So this Age temporal and the Age to come permanent is within the Holy Spirit Temple Construct. Jesus within his Holy Spirit 3.5 day ministry is not speaking of the Old Covenant Temple construct.

So the 70AD Full Preterist narrative is completely bogus and is a concoction of ill conceived misconceptions without any regard to the multitude of exegetical and theological consequences that are too numerous to talk about at length.
What *was* to come at that time (back when the NT was written - prior to 70 A.D.).

Notice the tense of Hebrews 9 (it doesn't say "He will mediate a new covenant")

Hebrews 9:15 New Living Translation (NLT)
15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

******************
There was a transition period, though......between the OC and new....that's why Hebrews states this (it was obsolete at the time Hebrews was written, it -the OC along with the temple and ancient Jerusalem- has now "disappeared"):

Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.
 
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claninja

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539 - 530 BC ....... Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 BC ....... Cambyses
522 - 486 BC ....... Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 BC ....... Xerxes
465 - 423 BC ....... Artaxerxes I
423 BC ................ Xerxes II - few weeks
423 BC ................. Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 BC ....... Darius II
404 - 359 BC ....... Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 BC ....... Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 BC ................ Arses
338 - 330 BC ...... Darius III (Codomanus)

The visions of Daniel 10-12 took place in the 3rd year of Cyrus:
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia

The angel tells Daniel there will only be 4 more kings of Persia until Greece:
Daniel 11:2 “Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

However, you have listed a lot more kings than that. How do you reconcile that discrepancy?
 
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DaDad

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Douggg said:
The first 8 verses are about Persia and Greece.
Douggg said:
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia
DaDad said:
... where in History do we find a dual Monarch for the Medo/Persian Empire ...
It is a separate issue from the discussion of the little horn person - who is time of the end.
You can't get to the "little horn" without going through the "kings of Media and Persia", which YOU specifically cited.

But I understand. If I had a doctrine which couldn't be supported, I'd want to ignore the subject. -- Well, actually, if I was wrong I'd admit it, but perhaps my "first position" will make you feel better about misrepresenting both Scripture and History.

539 - 530 BC ....... Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 BC ....... Cambyses
522 - 486 BC ....... Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 BC ....... Xerxes
465 - 423 BC ....... Artaxerxes I
423 BC ................ Xerxes II - few weeks
423 BC ................. Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 BC ....... Darius II
404 - 359 BC ....... Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 BC ....... Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 BC ................ Arses
338 - 330 BC ...... Darius III (Codomanus)

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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The visions of Daniel 10-12 took place in the 3rd year of Cyrus:
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia
Did you miss what the verse actually says?

1:21 says Daniel DIED in the FIRST year of KING Cyrus:
21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.


So now you have to figure out exactly WHAT Cyrus was "king-OVER" in 10:1. Could it be that Cyrus hadn't yet conquered the Babylonians, and he was ONLY King of the Persians? And after Cyrus conquered the Babylonians, then he was KING over Daniel?


That's what is says in black and white. Did you want to re-write what Daniel recorded?

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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What we can be absolutely sure of is that nothing past the 7th seal can refer back to the 6th seal.
Revelation is not in order. There are things in Rev 12 that happen before any seals are opened, as shown. There are other things that happen in Rev 12 that occur during the tribulation. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal as Matt 24 proves.
Rev 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

When we consider TIME: the 6h seal will be opened before the 7th seal and it is the 7th seal that offically starts the 70th week. The war in heaven is at the midpoint of the week - so the 6th seal and the war will be separated by over 3.5 years.

It is OK of you don't believe this now: you will when you see it happen.
We can agree that the 6th seal will be opened before the 7th seal.....then it falls apart, as the 70th week starts at the 1st seal.
 
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ToServe

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I agree with you, but I did not understand anything but the final sentence!

I originally replied to @mkgal1 and when I wanted to add additional information to my original reply to her I further elaborated in the post you replied to.

What is being contended here is in regards to when Jesus said all sins will be forgiven except the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit. @mkgal1 used this verse to highlight that when Jesus said it shall not be forgiven that person in this Aga and the Age to come, she was claiming that Jesus was speaking of two Ages, that is the Old and the New Covenant Ages, yet in my replies to her I tried to explain to her that Jesus uses the New Testament Temple Construct to both Ages and so he is speaking of this Age as the temporal NT Age with the new spiritual temple (not the old) leading into the permanent Eternal Age in the afterlife when the Testator biologically dies to then be judged for the works of faith done in the body at Christ's coming when he will judge the living and the dead.
 
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ToServe

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The two witnesses before God is the Commissioned Church.

This is myth. Sorry. The two witnesses will be TWO MEN - probably Enoch and Elijah, the two men who did not die.

The 7 years and the 3.5 years (half of 7) are FUTURE.

I originally thought along those lines until I wanted to reconcile the fact that John is concerned about the Church and the letters are addressed to the Church after all. So the witnesses who preach the Gospel, do so until they finish their testimony into context to the Great Commission of John. John said in Revelation 10:11 "I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."

So the Church symbolically are the two witnesses the two Olive trees who stand before God as the anointed to preach the Gospel within the Great Commission.

When the two witnesses finish their testimony they are prevented from doing so by the beast of the bottomless Pitt who takes their commission out of the way to prepare for his Anti-Christ Gospel. As Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that the two witnesses will continue to withhold the reproach of the wicked ones until they are taken out of the way, then the evil one will manifest unopposed to dispense his Antichrist gospel.

The two witnesses are spiritually killed because their commission is taken away from them, but not before they finish their testimony, then we see that their bodies lay in the streets of Sodom where the Lord was crucified, which connects their commission to the original apostolic commission when the woman was given wings of an eagle to fly to other countries to spread the word.

Also after their commission has ended they are resurrected after 3.5 days which perfectly falls in harmony to the fact that Jesus started the ministry which encompassed the first half of Daniel's 70th week where he was cut off in the middle. Then his Holy Spirit commissioned witnesses the two olive trees both Jews and Gentiles continued the commission for the remainder of the 70th week which is the remaining 3.5 days of ministry when their testimony is complete before the beast of the bottomless Pitt takes them out of the way.

What I present to you is compelling exegetical argument that has bearing within the book of Revelation, yet what you suggest is, that we avert logic and just opine with conjectures about two characters that have no relevance to the book of Revelation and absolutely no connection to the Church that represents the 7 Candlesticks and no regard to the Great Commission given them to prophesy/preach.

You can push a contrary to exegesis line of reasoning but I am sorry I will not!
 
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parousia70

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The 1260 days is end times. Jesus being caught up to heaven was first century.

According to Scripture, the 1st Century WAS the End times:

Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)
 
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Douggg

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As you can see, "kingdom" cannot be supported by the Hebrew word behind it as the only possible translation.

22 Now that being broken, whereas
four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of
their rule, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Verse 22 is speaking of Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus, and Seleucus. So verse 23 is merely saying, in the later part of "their rule, or Cassander's, Ptolemy's, Antigonus', and Seleucus' rule.

As I said, this ENTIRE CHAPTER is about history, not about future.
The vision concerning the litte horn is time of the end in the text. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11. All of those visions contain prophecies about KINGDOMS, parts in each chapter are now ancient history - and parts are end times prophecy - all of them. There is a gap to the end times in ALL OF THEM.

I did find ONE commentary that suggest this was for our future. It seems then that you are VASTLY outnumbered in your theory by he commentators.
irrelevant.
The text says time of the end.

Antiochus was not a king of fierce countenance - he backed down from invading Egypt, intimidated by the Roman representative about the prospect of facing the Romans in war, in the famous line in the sand incident.

Antiochus's power was not mighty.

Antiochus did not stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus - to be broken not by hand '

As I said in the beginning, you cannot pull verses out of their context: the entire context of chapter 8 is Persia vs Greece. There is not even one verse that refers to our future.
That is preposterous statement when it says time of the end right in the text.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
 
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sparow

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I agree



Here is where I would disagree. There is no scripture that explicitly states that 3.5 years is equal to 1260 years



The dragon ATTEMPTS to pursue/persecute the woman, however, the woman flees and is nourished for 1260 days or 3.5 years.



I would disagree, because the woman is nourished during the 3.5 years of revelation 12. However, after these 3.5 years, the dragon goes off to make war against the offspring of the woman: revelation 13.



I disagree, I believe it tells us the end of the 70th week.

Jesus confirms a covenant with Israel for 1 week. His ministry lasted 3.5 years.
Jesus is cut off in the midst of the week, effectively ending the sacrifice and offering
Israel is nourished and protected for 3.5 years, while more and more Jews accept the gospel

After the 3.5 years, the gospel goes outside the jews. And satan goes to make war against these

It is not as if there is a single legalistic solution; the scriptures are a system of repeating patterns.

Arithmetic determines the matter. The Bible defines a year as 360 days, 360 x 3.5 = 1260.

Has there been a time in history when the church has not been persecuted? The Sabbath keeping, Jerusalem church, under James and the apostles continued until the third centaury when it disappeared from history. But when the Inquisitions arrive there are Sabbath keeping churches all over the place, not in subjection to the Papacy. Patrick of Ireland was a Sabbath keeper, it took 400 years of Inquisition to convert Spain from Sabbath to Sunday; the Sabbath keeping church in India, started by the apostle Thomas, endured until after the council of Trent, until it was invaded by Jesuits. The last Sabbath keeping church to go under was in the mountains of Italy. There does seem to be an interval of 1200 + years in the history of the Sabbath keeping church, from the third centaury until the Inquisitions.

The SDA also say the seven years of confirming the covenant is contiguous even though He was cut off in the middle; I do not dispute that after 3.5 years the covenant was extended to the gentiles. Even if the covenant going to the gentiles was implicit in the covenant, it did not happen during then 3.5 years. The issue revolves around what it means to confirm the covenant; confirming is where the promise and God's responsibilities under the contract are brought to fruition; Jesus's presence as Messiah and King is the covenant confirmed; Jesus's shedding His blood for the remission of sin is the covenant confirmed; all the prophesies fulfilled confirmed His identity. If those 3.5 years were the confirming of the covenant then the covenant would be fully confirmed, but it is not, the confirming of the covenant is still a work in progress. It is interesting that most Christians abrogate their responsibilities under the covenant and still expect to be saved.
 
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