Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
If a child were to murder, or do other kinds of horrible sins (that are as equally bad), they would be thrown out by the law itself. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home, and he repented to the father, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. This was speaking in spiritual terms. In fact, this was one of a series of three parables and the them of all is repentance or seeking God's forgiveness (Which relates to salvation).

Why do you always create these heinous examples?
I want the same example but choose an entry level sin. Please.

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I don't think you really read what I had written. Please go back and read it please. What about 1 John 2:26? What about 1 John 1:10?

The reason you quote other verses, is your context is bad, and you are simply trying to overturn what is plainly written. That's the trouble with only having a superfluous understanding of the letter itself

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I don't think you really read what I had written. Please go back and read it please. What about 1 John 2:26? What about 1 John 1:10?

Now we are in BIG trouble. He's channeling LGW.

BNR32FAN · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Yes, I am very serious.
I mean, take a step back a moment, and look at things from a third party perspective: Do you not think it is strange or bit odd that you are refusing to explain whole entire verses that refutes your belief? We can go over them one by one if you like.

We can start with Matthew 19:17. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Please keep in mind that Jesus did not say this to the young rich ruler to show him how it is impossible to keep God's laws. Matthew 19 ends with the point of forsaking things in our life as a part of everlasting life. In Luke 19:1-10, we learn that when Zacchaeus admitted to Jesus that he was going to sell half of his goods to the poor, Jesus said that salvation had come to his house.

I believe the Bible teaches Prevenient Grace. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime. However, it is up to that person's free will choice to accept the sudden light of God's love towards them and to respond in kind. So it is Synergistic. There is a cooperation going on. It's not a one way street. You do actually have to put forth an effort to respond to God's call.

For you erroneously believe that Faith is exclusively a belief alone. It is not. James says he will show you his faith by his works (See James 2:18). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). No works, and that means one's faith is dead and cannot access the saving grace of God.

Do you believe in the Calvinistic teaching of Unconditional Election?

Not true. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

I agree with your understanding of faith brother. I know you normally don’t like to get into Greek transliteration but what you described about faith is actually very close to the Greek definition of the word pistis which is translated to the English word faith. Pistis means not only to believe but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty. All of these have to do with devotion. Devotion is a state of mind not necessarily a work. Devotion like faith compels a person to do good works.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Do you claim to be able to explain the whole Bible? (nope)
Then why do you charge me with being honest in "admitting" my human limitations as if it some sort of crime?

Just to be clear, I'm fine with us continuing to kid each other here.

I can explain any verse that is put forth to me just fine. But this is only by the Holy Spirit teaching me and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Granted, this does not mean I know everything, but I can at least explain most verses put forth to me in most cases. The problem is that you are ignoring KEY verses that refute your belief. I find that rather convenient that you just throw down the mystery card and ignore those verses and keep believing what you believe when those MANY verses refute what you believe. From my perspective, it just looks like you don't care what those verses really say and you just prefer latching on to a belief that runs contrary to so many other verses.

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I can explain any verse that is put forth to me just fine.

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I can explain any verse that is put forth to me just fine. But this is only by the Holy Spirit teaching me and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Granted, this does not mean I know everything, but I can at least explain most verses put forth to me in most cases. The problem is that you are ignoring KEY verses that refute your belief. I find that rather convenient that you just throw down the mystery card and ignore those verses and keep believing what you believe when those MANY verses refute what you believe. From my perspective, it just looks like you don't care what those verses really say and you just prefer latching on to a belief that runs contrary to so many other verses.

Where is your explanation of the Ephesians two scriptures I challenged you with. Did you chicken out?

mark kennedy · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Jesus disagrees with you.
He says,

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).

Paul disagrees with you.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

John disagrees with you.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

Peter disagrees with you.

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

So what is Romans 6:6 saying?

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6).

It is talking about overcoming sin and not about how we can sin and still be saved.

Thats your pet heresy, you cant be saved and sin which no self respecting evangelical is going to accept because if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us 1 John 1:8, and if we do sin we have an adcocate. 1John 2:1. It is clear from the context that he is talking to Christians.

Continually arguing that any sin you commit automatically revokes the grace of God is absurd and your spam expositions that do not agree with you are meaningless.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

daydreamer40 said:
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18

Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!

What did Paul destroy?

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!

What did Paul destroy?

He repeatedly stated you cannot be justified by obeying the law. Therefore, if he turned back to what he sought so hard to destroy and tried to be justified by obeying the law, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker.
Which cannot be referring to the legalistic law, for when he wrote that he was under the new covenant. And, Paul would not be a lawbreaker concerning legalistic law for he could perfectly obey it

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

daydreamer40 said:
He repeatedly stated you cannot be justified by obeying the law. Therefore, if he turned back to what he sought so hard to destroy and tried to be justified by obeying the law, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker.
Which cannot be referring to the legalistic law, for when he wrote that he was under the new covenant. And, Paul would not be a lawbreaker concerning legalistic law for he could perfectly obey it

Right.
Many claim that this was a false accusation against Paul. I don't think that is entirely correct.

Acts 21:21
They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Right.
Many claim that this was a false accusation against Paul. I don't think that is entirely correct.

Acts 21:21
They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

Yes, I see what you mean, good point. Its amazing isn't it, the person who wrote half the books of the NT admitted he could not be justified by obeying the law, yet some on the internet believe they can be

BNR32FAN · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Some do not understand when the Bible talks about the "works of the Law of Moses" vs. the "works of faith" (that makes up a true faith). I believe love, showing God's Word, prayer, and fasting will be able to help some of them to see that difference.

While Paul does mention works of circumcision in Romans 3 and later in Romans 4 I believe Paul is speaking of works of faith that do not save us. Paul is a very analytical writer. He is very descriptive in his writings and when he says we are justified by our faith not by our works I believe he means exactly that. For grace is no longer grace if we must work to earn it. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. I believe our works are attributed to God and by our faith (devotion) we receive the gift of salvation. This would explain how the thief on the cross was saved. I believe if given the opportunity the thief would’ve been a devoted believer but he was saved having done very minimal work. He did however defend Jesus against the other criminals who were mocking Him and confessed his sin. Other than that there is no other work he had done that was recorded in the scriptures. By this example I believe some can be saved in their last moments if they truly repent even without doing any works at all.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

daydreamer40 said:
Yes, I see what you mean, good point. Its amazing isn't it, the person who wrote half the books of the NT admitted he could not be justified by obeying the law, yet some on the internet believe they can be

Yes. I agree.
Here's an interesting contextual presentation. (note the reference)

Galatians 2:19-3:2
“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2018

daydreamer40 said:
Yes, I see what you mean, good point. Its amazing isn't it, the person who wrote half the books of the NT admitted he could not be justified by obeying the law, yet some on the internet believe they can be

Hello daydreamer40, who is saying here that they believe they are justified by keeping the LAW? I find this statement quite puzzling and believe it to be another false statement. Could you please state who is teaching that we are justified by obeying God's LAW and post the link? If you cannot post a link why are you making statements that no one is saying? Is this being honest and telling the truth?

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello daydreamer40, who is saying here that they believe they are justified by keeping the LAW? I find this statement quite puzzling and believe it to be another false statement. Could you please state who is teaching that we are justified by obeying God's LAW and post the link?

I will accept your apology, Jason believes Christians are justified by obeying the law

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello daydreamer40, who is saying here that they believe they are justified by keeping the LAW? I find this statement quite puzzling and believe it to be another false statement. Could you please state who is teaching that we are justified by obeying God's LAW and post the link?

Can we be saved if don't keep the Ten Commandments?

BNR32FAN · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
That's what grace is. Rewarding people for doing evil. Hello?

Compassion is when we get the good thing we don't deserve.
Mercy is when we don't get the bad thing we do deserve.

Exodus 33:19
… I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rewarding people for doing evil? Wow no that’s about a thousand miles away from being scriptural. Not even close brother. Surely you don’t believe that?

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2018

daydreamer40 said:
I will accept your apology, Jason believes Christians are justified by obeying the law

Jason believes that Christians are justified by obeying the law? I do not know what Jason believes in this matter. I have never heard anyone teach they are justified by obeying God's LAW. Can you provide a link please? Or maybe we can ask Jason directly.

daydreamer40 · Sep 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Jason believes that Christians are justified by obeying the law? Where does he say this?

Just ask him.

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

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