Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Dorothy Mae · Sep 24, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
I laughed at the absurdity of you saying that you spoke truth and included no scripture but your own thoughts.

Didn’t sound like it, but let me ask you, when you write your thoughts with no scripture, are you not telling the truth? Do you see that your assumption is not something you think of yourself. Just a thought.

Some people ask no questions and run off on their own tangents. But since you know truth, I assume you know what I was thinking when I wrote it.

Even Jesus didn’t always know what people were thinking. He asked questions to get info at times.

But your answer makes no sense. Jesus said those who kept his teachings (not assuming they belong to a different covenant all the time) would know the truth. That truth sets one free, not gives one all knowledge.

Halbhh · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
That's the interesting thing about this topic. I think many are trying to talk on both sides of the issue. The majority say we are saved by grace (the Atonement) initially, but then by works from that point on. Which of course means that the Atonement is incomplete. But they don't like to hear that.

I don't know of any who are purely salvation by works folks. Maybe early in this thread. I seem to remember a couple of Catholic/Eastern Orthodox folks here. One was quite engaged in the discussion. Which was great. I'll look to see.

Ah! Now I get more of how you are thinking on all this.

For me great help in precisely this question is in John chapter 15 -- we only bear true fruit (and we must we learn or we will be destroyed in the fire (John chapter 15)...we only bear true fruit only if we are relying on Christ, remaining in Christ, remaining in His Word, bearing fruit from and of and by Him.

That still can leave questions in people's minds, and then it's about clear communication. The Catholics attempt to communicate this at least in this way (and perhaps many others, but here is one) --
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

See, they are trying to elucidate this deep thing -- how the reality we are only saved by Grace, only able to bear fruit by Grace, involves our own willingness to...
as I would want to say it, as Paul wrote, to "walk in the spirit" (and "put to death the works of the flesh"; Paul in Romans).

Here's yet another wording: it's like we are graciously offered His hand, to lead us, and then instead of dragging our feet (refusing), we should accept His lead and use our little legs and follow Him willingly. Instead of refusing to cooperate.

Yet another metaphor, it's like teaching a toddler to use a hammer -- the Parent guides their hand, helping them swing the hammer correctly, and learn by doing. Because the Parent helps, they can succeed at a young age. They are also allowed to try a lot, under the ultimate tutelage of the Parent, who has provided that hammer. (this is the metaphor that came to me, being a carpenter, but just as good is the parent helping the young kid get a push start and balance riding a bike -- the parent provided the bike, the instruction, the safety, the push, and the aid for when they fall down, and further in time the deeper rules of safety and what are good destinations, and on and on)

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

That's an interesting rabbit trail to follow.
"Even Jesus didn’t always know what people were thinking. He asked questions to get info at times. " - DM

There seems to be a common misconception that Jesus was acting in his divinity while here on earth. As in the comment above, that assumes he was omniscient MOST of the time.

Philippians 2:5-7
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

ToBeLoved · Sep 24, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus said knowing God. But don’t you reject the teaching of Jesus being the old conevavnt? I’m serious. Do you reject all He said or part and how do you decide? This is somewhat new.

How did you come to that conclusion because I made one point?

Is it fair of you to now assume I disregard all the teachings of Jesus? It bothers me when instead of trying to understand what someone is trying to say someone just gives that other person an overall negative label and then expects that other person to defend themselves against it.

Not a very pleasant experience.

I don’t reject anything Jesus said. Never said I did.

Halbhh · Sep 24, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Brother Jason has quoted James 2:21 to me as evidence to which I explained the definition of dikaióō, the Greek word for justified means not only to render one as righteous but also means to show or exhibit one to be righteous. Since Paul in Romans 4 says that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith not by his works it is evident that James must be referring to the second definition otherwise James and Paul would be contradicting each other.

ah, interesting to learn more of the language meanings. Lately I tend to think of that this way -- that if faith really is there, the person feels compelled to act in accordance with that faith. If you believe you can step upwards on a stair step even in the pitch dark, you lift your foot up to that level and try.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Halbhh said:
Ah! Now I get more of how you are thinking on all this.

For me great help in precisely this question is in John chapter 15 -- we only bear true fruit (and we must we learn or we will be destroyed in the fire (John chapter 15)...we only bear true fruit only if we are relying on Christ, remaining in Christ, remaining in His Word, bearing fruit from and of and by Him.

That still can leave questions in people's minds, and then it's about clear communication. The Catholics attempt to communicate this at least in this way (and perhaps many others, but here is one) --
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

See, they are trying to elucidate this deep thing -- how the reality we are only saved by Grace, only able to bear fruit by Grace, involves our own willingness to...
as I would want to say it, as Paul wrote, to "walk in the spirit" (and "put to death the works of the flesh"; Paul in Romans).

Here's yet another wording: it's like we are graciously offered His hand, to lead us, and then instead of dragging our feet (refusing), we should accept His lead and use our little legs and follow Him willingly. Instead of refusing to cooperate.

Yet another metaphor, it's like teaching a toddler to use a hammer -- the Parent guides their hand, helping them swing the hammer correctly, and learn by doing. Because the Parent helps, they can succeed at a young age. They are also allowed to try a lot, under the ultimate tutelage of the Parent, who has provided that hammer. (this is the metaphor that came to me, being a carpenter, but just as good is the parent helping the young kid get a push start and balance riding a bike -- the parent provided the bike, the instruction, the safety, the push, and the aid for when they fall down, and further in time the deeper rules of safety and what are good destinations, and on and on)

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
As I shared with Jason0047, there are scriptures that really challenge the idea of salvation by grace alone (not by works), but I'm not likely to let them deter me from receiving the undeniable offer.

The verse below was the key scripture in my OP for this topic. It declares some truly mind-blowing things in this regard. IMHO anyway.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Seriously?

Yes, I am very serious.
I mean, take a step back a moment, and look at things from a third party perspective: Do you not think it is strange or bit odd that you are refusing to explain whole entire verses that refutes your belief? We can go over them one by one if you like.

We can start with Matthew 19:17. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Please keep in mind that Jesus did not say this to the young rich ruler to show him how it is impossible to keep God's laws. Matthew 19 ends with the point of forsaking things in our life as a part of everlasting life. In Luke 19:1-10, we learn that when Zacchaeus admitted to Jesus that he was going to sell half of his goods to the poor, Jesus said that salvation had come to his house.

You said:
What makes a person saved in the first place?
The grace of God or their own self-effort?

I believe the Bible teaches Prevenient Grace. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime. However, it is up to that person's free will choice to accept the sudden light of God's love towards them and to respond in kind. So it is Synergistic. There is a cooperation going on. It's not a one way street. You do actually have to put forth an effort to respond to God's call.

For you erroneously believe that Faith is exclusively a belief alone. It is not. James says he will show you his faith by his works (See James 2:18). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). No works, and that means one's faith is dead and cannot access the saving grace of God.

You said:
If you can't earn salvation do to your own behavior

Do you believe in the Calvinistic teaching of Unconditional Election?

You said:
you can't lose it due to your own behavior. That is God's call.

Not true. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Halbhh · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
As I shared with Jason0047, there are scriptures that really challenge the idea of salvation by grace alone (not by works), but I'm not likely to let them deter me from receiving the undeniable offer.

The verse below was the key scripture in my OP for this topic. It declares some truly mind-blowing things in this regard. IMHO anyway.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Yes. Paul had much work to do to help the Jews (in every city) used to relying on their own old idea of following of the Law leading to the blessings (and also help the gentiles around them too), to understand that idea/habitual thought of self-reliance of self-justification through one's own works was not the a true or full acceptance of the awesome Gift Christ gave us. Not there yet. Romans is so great on this of course, helping us realize all have fallen short, and could not be reconciled on their works, but instead ultimately only by faith, by God's amazing grace. That amazing message, the Good News.

Dorothy Mae · Sep 24, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
How did you come to that conclusion because I made one point?

I gave you a quote from Jesus and you dismissed it saying it was old covenant. How am I to know you don’t do this with any teaching of Jesus you dislike? I assure you, the apostles didn’t dismiss anything. Me either.

Is it fair of you to now assume I disregard all the teachings of Jesus?

Yes it is since there’s no scriptural basis for dismissing anything.

It bothers me when instead of trying to understand what someone is trying to say someone just gives that other person an overall negative label and then expects that other person to defend themselves against it.

Huh? You dismiss some teachings of Jesus and I innocently asked which other ones and how you tell. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. So is it just that one or are there others? I’m serious.

Not a very pleasant experience.

I don’t reject anything Jesus said. Never said I did.

Ill pull up the post where you said what Jesus said was old covenant and doesn’t apply to us, dismissing it. If you say you were wrong, fine but then you have to accept his opinion on the subject and it did not match yours.

I looked it up. Jesus said he who endures to the end will be saved. Now this is clearly future and not before the resurrection of all the dead but after his. So it’s after Pentecost he is referring to. Yet you dismissed this saying it was under the old covenant.

But there is not a single word under the old covenant about having to endure to the end that I recall. This is clearly under the new convenant.

So do you now believe that Jesus was talking about us, the believers who have to endure to the end to be saved? If not who was he talking about and on what basis do you say that?

I can hardly be more fair. Giving you a fair chance to discuss your view with no hostilities. But I won’t be the only one who will think you dismiss other words of Jesus if you dismiss some, you know.

BNR32FAN · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
As I understand it "OSAS" is a derogatory term used by anti-OSAS. I've never met an "OSAS" labeled person who believes one could NEVER under any circumstances lose their salvation. The anti-OSAS folks seem to think you could lose your salvation as easy as losing your car keys. lol (I know, I know... probably exaggerations in both directions)

Actually I’ve met a couple that believe a person can at one time be a believer then later curse God, kill Christians, and worship Satan and because they once believed they will be saved even without repenting. No matter what verses I put in front of them they insist that John 10:28 is proof someone cannot believe and lose their salvation no matter what they do.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Yes, I am very serious.
I mean, take a step back a moment, and look at things from a third party perspective: Do you not think it is strange or bit odd that you are refusing to explain whole entire verses that refutes your belief? We can go over them one by one if you like.

We can start with Matthew 19:17. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Please keep in mind that Jesus did not say this to the young rich ruler to show him how it is impossible to keep God's laws. Matthew 19 ends with the point of forsaking things in our life as a part of everlasting life. In Luke 19:1-10, we learn that when Zacchaeus admitted to Jesus that he was going to sell half of his goods to the poor, Jesus said that salvation had come to his house.

I believe the Bible teaches Prevenient Grace. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime. However, it is up to that person's free will choice to accept the sudden light of God's love towards them and to respond in kind. So it is Synergistic. There is a cooperation going on. It's not a one way street. You do actually have to put forth an effort to respond to God's call.

For you erroneously believe that Faith is exclusively a belief alone. It is not. James says he will show you his faith by his works (See James 2:18). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). No works, and that means one's faith is dead and cannot access the saving grace of God.

Do you believe in the Calvinistic teaching of Unconditional Election?

Not true. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

I already told you that I agreed that you were pointing to some challenging passages that I was well aware of. If I have no way to refute something I'm not compelled to just make something up as a rebuttal. Those scriptures are there and they say what they say. I'm fine with that.

Can you explain how those scriptures are in harmony with this one below?
"... by grace you have been saved... by grace you have been saved..."
(past tense - a present possession) Done deal. Paid in full. The Atonement is complete.

Ephesians 2:5, 8
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. ...
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Dorothy Mae · Sep 24, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Actually I’ve met a couple that believe a person can at one time be a believer then later curse God, kill Christians, and worship Satan and because they once believed they will be saved even without repenting. No matter what verses I put in front of them they insist that John 10:28 is proof someone cannot believe and lose their salvation no matter what they do.

I’ve met them too. The worst sinners in history can be in heaven sinning to their dying hour if they once believed. If that isn’t an evil doctrine!!

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Actually I’ve met a couple that believe a person can at one time be a believer then later curse God, kill Christians, and worship Satan and because they once believed they will be saved even without repenting. No matter what verses I put in front of them they insist that John 10:28 is proof someone cannot believe and lose their salvation no matter what they do.

As crazy as that sounds, it is true doctrinally. As I understand it. Only God can decide the fate of a reprobate. It's not our call. There is no way we can undo what Christ has done for us. The story of the Prodigal is a beautiful example of this. And this is really what this topic is about. The Atonement is complete. We cannot add or subtract anything.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

What was the context of why Paul was saying this in Romans 4:4-5?

The context was Paul fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12; Also see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Please, hover your cursor over the above verses and carefully and slowly read them. In other words, when Paul condemns being under the Law or condemns works he is talking about the Law of Moses or the works of the Law of Moses like "Circumcision Salvationism." For if a person believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially be saved or right with God, then they believe a work (and not God's grace) saves them. This is why Paul was arguing against Works Alone Salvationism. Notice, Paul does not say we can break the Moral Law in addition to God's grace anywhere in his letters. That would be the imagination of the believer who is seeking to justify sin in some way cooking up that kind of idea.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
I’ve met them too. The worst sinners in history can be in heaven sinning to their dying hour if they once believed. If that isn’t an evil doctrine!!

Me too. I have met a self professing believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would be saved even while doing so. Both me and another Christian tried to correct their wrong way of thinking with Scripture.

Dorothy Mae · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Me too. I have met a self professing believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would be saved even while doing so. Both me and another Christian tried to correct their wrong way of thinking with Scripture.

“Depart from my you workers of inquiry. I don’t know you” will be a surprise to them. But those who promised them Heaven will bear the greater judgement. They will answer for the souls in hell who believed their teaching and neglected their salvation and lost it.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Saint Steven said:
As crazy as that sounds, it is true doctrinally. As I understand it. Only God can decide the fate of a reprobate. It's not our call. There is no way we can undo what Christ has done for us. The story of the Prodigal is a beautiful example of this. And this is really what this topic is about. The Atonement is complete. We cannot add or subtract anything.

In Post #317, before you said,

"Somehow posters seem to think that I am promoting sin. I'm not." ~ Saint Steven.

You believe the story of the Prodigal Son is an example of the believer who lives in horrible sin and is saved while doing so. Yet, the prodigal son was not said to be "alive again" until he was willing to come home and repent. In fact, his father said he was "dead." The words "dead" and "alive again" are speaking in spiritual terms. But if you disagree, then you must believe the Prodigal Son was saved while committing heinous acts of sin. If such is the case, then you do believe in promoting sin because you teach that a person can sin and still be saved (With the story of the prodigal son being your prime example).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
“Depart from my you workers of inquiry. I don’t know you” will be a surprise to them. But those who promised them Heaven will bear the greater judgement. They will answer for the souls in hell who believed their teaching and neglected their salvation and lost it.

We have to pray for them and love them as best as we can. But yeah, I believe even if there were no verses that could be bent from their perspective, there would still be people like that who would believe that way still (because people like their sin and yet they also want the comfort that there is a God, too). In short, they want the best of both worlds. But it doesn't work like that (as I am sure you know). But we should pray. Pray deeply and fast for them.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 24, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Brother Jason has quoted James 2:21 to me as evidence to which I explained the definition of dikaióō, the Greek word for justified means not only to render one as righteous but also means to show or exhibit one to be righteous. Since Paul in Romans 4 says that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith not by his works it is evident that James must be referring to the second definition otherwise James and Paul would be contradicting each other.

Some do not understand when the Bible talks about the "works of the Law of Moses" vs. the "works of faith" (that makes up a true faith). I believe love, showing God's Word, prayer, and fasting will be able to help some of them to see that difference.

Saint Steven · Sep 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
What was the context of why Paul was saying this in Romans 4:4-5?

The context was Paul fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12; Also see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Please, hover your cursor over the above verses and carefully and slowly read them. In other words, when Paul condemns being under the Law or condemns works he is talking about the Law of Moses or the works of the Law of Moses like "Circumcision Salvationism." For if a person believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially be saved or right with God, then they believe a work (and not God's grace) saves them. This is why Paul was arguing against Works Alone Salvationism. Notice, Paul does not say we can break the Moral Law in addition to God's grace anywhere in his letters. That would be the imagination of the believer who is seeking to justify sin in some way cooking up that kind of idea.

You seem to have a perpetual problem with claiming that a verse says something other than what it plainly says. Unless of course it plainly says what you want it to.

This scripture below (which you are commenting on in your post above) says, God justifies the ungodly. That God credits righteousness to those who trust him rather than do works in an attempt to earn it.

But what do you see? You are off in left field carrying on about "Circumcision Salvationism". Is this what I get for cooperating with you? I think I will return to my smart answers. It's whole lot more rewarding.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Everything You say is Life to me

You can call me Steve

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Everything You say is Life to me

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He’s a Way of life

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

You can call me Steve

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