Is the Papacy True?

Markie Boy said:

I am at a crossroads, and this is a big question I'm going to work on. Please move this thread to St. Justin's if it fits better there.

Is the Papacy True? I am very uncomfortable with Papal Infallibility. I'll leave it there as I want to do more listening that talking. Can anyone provide factual points that disprove Papal Infallibility? I do historically see the state of Primacy, but not Supremacy - but I'm learning.

Click to expand...

HTacianas said:

If by "is the papacy true" you're asking if the Pope is the successor to Peter, yes. So the papacy is true.

But remember that after the schism Rome made several declarations, mostly in response to the protestant reformation. Those declarations, such as papal infallibility, are subject to revision by an Ecumenical Council.

A Council could declare papal infallibility to be void, but the Roman Church has claimed for itself the authority to overrule an Ecumenical Council.

Good luck sorting all that out.

Click to expand...

ArmyMatt said:

if Papal infallibility was true, with all of the heresies and schisms that the Church has faced, why was it never invoked?

Click to expand...

1. Does the RCC have the right to exist? Yes
2. Does the RCC have the right to elect a leader? Yes
3. Have any of the Popes writing ex cathedra written something that is contrary to God's will as revealed in the Canon? Yes
4. Does that mean all the Popes were fallible? No
5. Were all the Popes fallible? No human but Jesus was/is perfect.
6. Does that mean that the Popes that wrote ex cathedra contrary to God's never spoke according to the will of the Holy Spirit? No
7. Even if God showed up one day and altered even the least stroke of a pen in Scripture, we are commanded to reject the alteration. If it really was God, it was a test (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). In the instance of a Pope's writings, it doesn't matter if it was ex cathedra or not. If it was contrary to Scripture we are commanded to reject it (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22. (Note that prophecy is God speaking through a person.) Claiming to speak for God when not doing so demanded death under the Mosaic Law, which reveals how serious a sin it was (but death is not the correct moral response these days).
   
   
8. Were past/current Popes successors to Peter? Elisha inherited Elijah's spirit. John the Baptist inherited Elijah's spirit. Neither was due to the power of men (but they or their parents could have asked God). God causes these inheritances to happen if he wants to. However, men actually have the power to do so, too; it is accomplished by the "son" believing in his spiritual father, which is displayed by doing the deeds of his spiritual father. (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 6:16, Implied in John 8:39, et al.)
   
   Solomon was David's son in regard to the flesh, but he did not do all the deeds of his father, and that made God angry. Solomon was partially opposed to God. Solomon was the wisest man ever (with human wisdom), and yet was spiritually foolish by raising up altars to other gods. Solomon's son, Rehoboam, was foolish and became evil by being opposed to God.
   
   If we believe in a man or do the deeds of a man, we are his spiritual sons, not God's. We are commanded to be sons of God, meaning that if we want the inheritance of closeness, wisdom, authority, and power of God, we must believe in God and do the deeds of God (John 12:36).
   
   
9. A group of people appointing a leader has a powerful spiritual effect because God accepts of the will of a group (which is comprised of the free will of the individuals), but just because it happened does not mean that is what God desired. God usually works with what we give him. He accepts as leaders those the masses have entrusted themselves to, instead of trying to change the mind of the masses or just ejecting their leader. There are reasons why every leader is put in place. However, if that is how a man's authority came to be, it only applies to the masses who have accepted his leadership.
   
   God does not appoint any man as a worldwide leader, because that position is already filled. There is plenty of evidence that there is a limit to the number of people a man can manage, even with a large, established bureaucratic structure. It gets so that the head cannot know what the body is doing. Consider also that a leader shares in the responsibility of everything done by those he accepts as followers according to the agreement between him and the follower (often implied). If a leader tell someone to do something, that leader shares responsibility for the consequences. God does not raise anyone up to impossible tasks. It is God himself who prepares the tasks that a person should do (Ephesians 2:10). A looser association of leaders is necessary—which happens to be what we see in New Testament times.
   
   On the world-level scale, Paul was raised up directly by God and appointed over the gentiles. It had nothing to do with Peter. God raised Peter up directly and was appointed over the Jews. (Galatians 2:7-9) There is no such thing as a worldwide church through one man appointed by God. In fact, why would any man have to answer to any other man if the Holy Spirit Himself put a call on someone's life to become a pastor who then worships God alone. God desires some pastors to yield to a more senior pastor (which is often quite wise), but others he does not. But the choice to yield is not usually directly from God anyway, but rather because the junior pastor himself chooses to submit to someone so they can get a job (even if God led them to the job). It was his choice.
   
   
10. Jesus didn't die so those who entrust themselves to him can freely choose to be the slaves of men (Acts 5:29). You are a slave to the one whom you obey—Romans 6:16. From God's point of view, the Pope is a spiritual leader to those who accept him as their spiritual leader, but not lord and master over anyone who yields to God's authority. There is only one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). There is no such thing as an automatic inheritance of authority from God's point of view. It is not God's desire that any evil leader be raised up, but evil men did and do ascend to positions of authority. When an evil leader comes to power, it is due to the sin of men, therefore when a good leader comes to power, it is due to the goodness of men. When the masses worship God with their lives, they will get a Godly leader. (Be sure to be deeply thankful to the Lord that we don't get leaders in the flesh according to what we have earned through our flesh. Even so it has happened and will happen again.)
    
    The spiritual authority of a leader depends on who he obeys, not upon who his purported spiritual father was. We are all commanded to become spiritual leaders directly by God because we are commanded to be sons of God. The institutions of men are given to us by God for our benefit, since we need help the help of humans to not get knocked off the path to God (or the path to unity with other people). The God-given authority to all leaders, good and evil, is to obey God directly, teach his followers to obey God directly, and to protect them from evil. (Ezekiel 3:17, 33:1-9+ ala 1 Corinthians 13.)

Knocking On Heavens Door said:

Anathemas are a way of using it though...

Click to expand...

ArmyMatt said:

if that were the case, Popes wouldn't have been on the wrong side of those anathemas.

Click to expand...

Knocking On Heavens Door said:

Exactly and they haven't
(He said while awaiting a storm )

Click to expand...

Knocking On Heavens Door said:

Anathemas are a way of using it though...

Click to expand...

All4Christ said:

An interesting tidbit, there are two sees established by Peter, not just the Roman see.

Click to expand...

ArmyMatt said:

Honorius and Vigilius both disprove that one.

Click to expand...

All4Christ said:

And anathemas have not been done just by the Pope. A lot of the Church accepted the anathema on the Eastern side over the anathema on the Western side. The split isn’t something that definitively proves that the pope had overall authority over the Church. Otherwise, we’d have a pretty different outcome (if everyone followed the Pope’s authority).

Click to expand...

Knocking On Heavens Door said:

I was kind of kidding, but truth being told anathemas wasnt proclaimed by any of them.

Click to expand...

dzheremi said:

Three if you count Alexandria as being essentially a 'Petrine' see due to St. Mark's relationship to St. peter, as Gregory I, bishop of Rome from 590 to 604, did in his letter to Eulogius:

Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself.

Click to expand...

Greg J. said:

Sola Scriptura perspective:

1. Does the RCC have the right to exist? Yes
2. Does the RCC have the right to elect a leader? Yes
3. Have any of the Popes writing ex cathedra written something that is contrary to God's will as revealed in the Canon? Yes
4. Does that mean all the Popes were fallible? No
5. Were all the Popes fallible? No human but Jesus was/is perfect.
6. Does that mean that the Popes that wrote ex cathedra contrary to God's never spoke according to the will of the Holy Spirit? No
7. Even if God showed up one day and altered even the least stroke of a pen in Scripture, we are commanded to reject the alteration. If it really was God, it was a test (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). In the instance of a Pope's writings, it doesn't matter if it was ex cathedra or not. If it was contrary to Scripture we are commanded to reject it (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22. (Note that prophecy is God speaking through a person.) Claiming to speak for God when not doing so demanded death under the Mosaic Law, which reveals how serious a sin it was (but death is not the correct moral response these days).
   
   
8. Were past/current Popes successors to Peter? Elisha inherited Elijah's spirit. John the Baptist inherited Elijah's spirit. Neither was due to the power of men (but they or their parents could have asked God). God causes these inheritances to happen if he wants to. However, men actually have the power to do so, too; it is accomplished by the "son" believing in his spiritual father, which is displayed by doing the deeds of his spiritual father. (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 6:16, Implied in John 8:39, et al.)
   
   Solomon was David's son in regard to the flesh, but he did not do all the deeds of his father, and that made God angry. Solomon was partially opposed to God. Solomon was the wisest man ever (with human wisdom), and yet was spiritually foolish by raising up altars to other gods. Solomon's son, Rehoboam, was foolish and became evil by being opposed to God.
   
   If we believe in a man or do the deeds of a man, we are his spiritual sons, not God's. We are commanded to be sons of God, meaning that if we want the inheritance of closeness, wisdom, authority, and power of God, we must believe in God and do the deeds of God (John 12:36).
   
   
9. A group of people appointing a leader has a powerful spiritual effect because God accepts of the will of a group (which is comprised of the free will of the individuals), but just because it happened does not mean that is what God desired. God usually works with what we give him. He accepts as leaders those the masses have entrusted themselves to, instead of trying to change the mind of the masses or just ejecting their leader. There are reasons why every leader is put in place. However, if that is how a man's authority came to be, it only applies to the masses who have accepted his leadership.
   
   God does not appoint any man as a worldwide leader, because that position is already filled. There is plenty of evidence that there is a limit to the number of people a man can manage, even with a large, established bureaucratic structure. It gets so that the head cannot know what the body is doing. Consider also that a leader shares in the responsibility of everything done by those he accepts as followers according to the agreement between him and the follower (often implied). If a leader tell someone to do something, that leader shares responsibility for the consequences. God does not raise anyone up to impossible tasks. It is God himself who prepares the tasks that a person should do (Ephesians 2:10). A looser association of leaders is necessary—which happens to be what we see in New Testament times.
   
   On the world-level scale, Paul was raised up directly by God and appointed over the gentiles. It had nothing to do with Peter. God raised Peter up directly and was appointed over the Jews. (Galatians 2:7-9) There is no such thing as a worldwide church through one man appointed by God. In fact, why would any man have to answer to any other man if the Holy Spirit Himself put a call on someone's life to become a pastor who then worships God alone. God desires some pastors to yield to a more senior pastor (which is often quite wise), but others he does not. But the choice to yield is not usually directly from God anyway, but rather because the junior pastor himself chooses to submit to someone so they can get a job (even if God led them to the job). It was his choice.
   
   
10. Jesus didn't die so those who entrust themselves to him can freely choose to be the slaves of men (Acts 5:29). You are a slave to the one whom you obey—Romans 6:16. From God's point of view, the Pope is a spiritual leader to those who accept him as their spiritual leader, but not lord and master over anyone who yields to God's authority. There is only one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). There is no such thing as an automatic inheritance of authority from God's point of view. It is not God's desire that any evil leader be raised up, but evil men did and do ascend to positions of authority. When an evil leader comes to power, it is due to the sin of men, therefore when a good leader comes to power, it is due to the goodness of men. When the masses worship God with their lives, they will get a Godly leader. (Be sure to be deeply thankful to the Lord that we don't get leaders in the flesh according to what we have earned through our flesh. Even so it has happened and will happen again.)
    
    The spiritual authority of a leader depends on who he obeys, not upon who his purported spiritual father was. We are all commanded to become spiritual leaders directly by God because we are commanded to be sons of God. The institutions of men are given to us by God for our benefit, since we need help the help of humans to not get knocked off the path to God (or the path to unity with other people). The God-given authority to all leaders, good and evil, is to obey God directly, teach his followers to obey God directly, and to protect them from evil. (Ezekiel 3:17, 33:1-9+ ala 1 Corinthians 13.)

Remember that there is only One who is our Teacher (Matthew 23:10) and One that can lead us into all truth (John 16:13).

“The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. (John 3:31, 1984 NIV)

Click to expand...

ArmyMatt said:

plus, since infallibility is above any council decision, there would have been no reason to call a council at all.

Click to expand...