Why the sea-Beast/Antichrist/w/e can't literally be Jewish

iamlamad · Sep 23, 2018

DaDad said:
Once again, WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CHAPTER 7 "BEASTS"? We were talking about the Chapter 2 KINGDOMS.
Is marijuana legal is your state?
Thanks,
DaDad

In cast you missed it, DANIEL called them beasts! (Ignoring your degrading remark)

iamlamad · Sep 23, 2018

DaDad said:
If you want to talk about "kingdoms", then we're in Chapter 2. If you want to talk about "beasts", then we're in Chapter 7.
To get to Chapter 7, you have go through Chapter 2, and apparently you haven't done that. So you'll need to resolve Chapter 2, otherwise your doctrines have no foundation.
Thanks,
DaDad

We all did that long ago: it is you that are confused on the number of Kingdoms: Daniel says 4, but you wish to add one. Shame.

iamlamad · Sep 23, 2018

DaDad said:
Ummmm, perhaps you might have a history book handy, because what you assert is neither "Historical" nor Scriptural.

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.

34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;

45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

... and where Five ≠ Four, so the FOUR BEASTS must depict the participants in the "divided kingdom".

1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided kingdom"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven

Hope this helps,
DaDad

AGain you seem to have a serious READING problem! "the kingdom" refers right back to #4! You are trying to ADD one that Daniel did not.

I wonder, do you have any concept of TIME? Do you realize how long it has been since the last Roman empirer? Do you have any understanding at all of the millions of refugees that have moved into Europe in the last 20 years or so? Do you imagine (is it legal in your state?) that Muslims with integrate with the former populations they have moved in to? NEVER! Not EVER. They are clay and the original folks are IRON. It is the SAME kingdom, but TIME has happened. Don't try to ADD to God's word!

(I wonder, have you ever in your life admitted that you were wrong?) This might be a good time.

Now try to concentrate on what is written instead of imagination?

iamlamad · Sep 23, 2018

DaDad said:
I'm not in any "camp" (no pun intended). I simply look at what Scripture says and what History fulfills.

Take for example 1:21 where Daniel DIED in the First year of KING Cyrus, versus 10:1 where Daniel was alive in the THIRD year of Cyrus KING OF PERSIA.

Calvin couldn't resolve both verses as PERFECTLY CORRECT, so he disregarded 1:21 in deference to 10:1 --

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.

In fact, BOTH 1:21 and 10:1 are PERFECTLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN. All we have to do is find the solution which is IN THE TEXT. And it seems that people are so "instant" minded, that they miss the OBVIOUS.

... and there's a LOT of that in the "christian" community.

Thanks,
DaDad

So why don't you do this with Daniel 2 text?

Original Happy Camper · Sep 23, 2018

r
No I do not Ignore Israel.

The prophecy said seventy weeks are determined upon my people. They failed and crucified our LORD.
They are no longer a corporate entity in the eyes of the LORD.
Israel in the NT is spiritual not a physical nation or people.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

DaDad · Sep 23, 2018

iamlamad said:
WRONG!!! Nice slight of hand, but you are caught: The "clay" and the "iron" are in the SAME KINGDOM!

Yep, you CAUGHT ME:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

... well you caught both GOD and me, -- and I was only repeating what GOD said, so you really CAUGHT GOD.

Perhaps if you knew history, you could come up with a solution as to why there is a residue of Iron in the Feet of Clay. -- But I doubt it ...

Good Job,
DaDad

DaDad · Sep 23, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
Nebuchadnezzar's dream had the 4th kingdom being the legs signifying divided which rome was into east and west.

I guess you've never eaten a chicken, because if you had, you'd know that the "division" starts at the thighs. But of course the (bronze) belly and thighs are the Grecian Empire, and that would disrupt your Roman Empire premise. So Scripture and History be discarded (I was going to use a different "d" word), so long as we protect our doctrines.

Thanks,
DaDad

iamlamad · Sep 24, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
r
No I do not Ignore Israel.

The prophecy said seventy weeks are determined upon my people. They failed and crucified our LORD.
They are no longer a corporate entity in the eyes of the LORD.
Israel in the NT is spiritual not a physical nation or people.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Please then, explain the country north of Egypt and south of Syria on the maps today? Is that just a happenstance?

iamlamad · Sep 24, 2018

DaDad said:
I guess you've never eaten a chicken, because if you had, you'd know that the "division" starts at the thighs. But of course the (bronze) belly and thighs are the Grecian Empire, and that would disrupt your Roman Empire premise. So Scripture and History be discarded (I was going to use a different "d" word), so long as we protect our doctrines.

Thanks,
DaDad

"The Roman empire branched into ten kingdoms, as the toes of these feet." (Matthew Henry Commentary) It is still the 4th kingdom - just many years later. As for the two thighs, after Alexander's death, two of the four were much stronger than the lessor two, and lasted much longer.

DaDad · Sep 24, 2018

iamlamad said:
"The Roman empire branched into ten kingdoms, ...

The Roman empire collapsed into the dust bin of history. If not, I've been sending my taxes to the IRS in Washington DC by mistake.

But if you are correct, and Chapter 2 only accounts for FOUR empires, then why does verse 45 depict FIVE:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

Certainly GOD's nature is Intelligent Design. And if the sequence is thereby Intelligent Design, -- one might anticipate it's because the FIFTH empire of Clay is a "Divided KINGDOM" between the THREE Superpowers and the Fourth one-world-government.

Secondly, if the Clay has a residue of Iron, could it be because there was no "replacement" for the Roman Empire, so all the disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages simply retained the Senatus Populusque Romanus, “Senate and the Roman People,” which nearly all nations still use today?

Are we ROMAN? NO! -- Do we still use the Roman based bi-caramel form of government? YES.

Thanks,
DaDad

Ripheus27 · Sep 24, 2018

I just checked up on this thread and I've discovered mineralogy and chicken-eating being used as metaphors for end-times factoids... :bigeye:

iamlamad · Sep 24, 2018

DaDad said:
The Roman empire collapsed into the dust bin of history. If not, I've been sending my taxes to the IRS in Washington DC by mistake.

But if you are correct, and Chapter 2 only accounts for FOUR empires, then why does verse 45 depict FIVE:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

Certainly GOD's nature is Intelligent Design. And if the sequence is thereby Intelligent Design, -- one might anticipate it's because the FIFTH empire of Clay is a "Divided KINGDOM" between the THREE Superpowers and the Fourth one-world-government.

Secondly, if the Clay has a residue of Iron, could it be because there was no "replacement" for the Roman Empire, so all the disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages simply retained the Senatus Populusque Romanus, “Senate and the Roman People,” which nearly all nations still use today?

Are we ROMAN? NO! -- Do we still use the Roman based bi-caramel form of government? YES.

Thanks,
DaDad

You are still trying to slip and extra one in! But again you are caught. The iron and clay are together in the 4th kingdom which was ROME. Rome was never defeated. It just faded away. Europe is a part of what was once called Rome.

Millions of immigrants or refuges have migrated into Europe in the last few years. Many of them came from Syria and Iraq. Most of them are Muslims. They will not "mix" with the local populations or as they say "melt" in (melting pot). Their main purpose is to remain Islam. It goes without saying that a good number of them are radical Muslims.

This is what the IRON and CLAY together means - in my opinion.

DaDad · Sep 24, 2018

iamlamad said:
- in my opinion.

I'd much prefer if you'd present Scripture as provided by GOD, and fulfilled by History:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

Thanks,
DaDad

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
They expect this messianic king to save Israel from it's enemies and establish it as the nation to rule over every other nation. This is exactly what the antichrist will do, and every person that claims to be a Christian who doesn't know that Jesus will come back with the clouds will be fooled by the imposter.

Isn't this what happened during the Jewish Roman war. The zealots factions, inside Jerusalem, fought for control over the city and temple area. John of Giscala, Eleazer ben Simon, and Simon bar Giora were the leaders of the 3 different zealot factions. Each one these men fought to restore the kingdom of Israel. Simon bar Giora even had coins with his name that stated "redemption of zion".

These false leaders incited Jerusalem to war against Rome. Many of the Jews followed along with them, believing Israel would be restored, which ultimately lead to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

Call me Nic · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
Isn't this what happened during the Jewish Roman war. The zealots factions, inside Jerusalem, fought for control over the city and temple area. John of Giscala, Eleazer ben Simon, and Simon bar Giora were the leaders of the 3 different zealot factions. Each one these men fought to restore the kingdom of Israel. Simon bar Giora even had coins with his name that stated "redemption of zion".

These false leaders incited Jerusalem to war against Rome. Many of the Jews followed along with them, believing Israel would be restored, which ultimately lead to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

I have to be honest with you, I don't know about the events in which you're referring to, except that Jerusalem was indeed sacked in 70 A.D.

However, the beast whose empire rules and stamps down the earth to rule over all kindreds and nations hasn't appeared yet, however. That much is sure.

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

Nicolaus Mourer said:
I have to be honest with you, I don't know about the events in which you're referring to, except that Jerusalem was indeed sacked in 70 A.D.

When you get a chance, read through Joseph' wars of the jews. Its very interesting.

Nicolaus Mourer said:
However, the beast whose empire rules and stamps down the earth to rule over all kindreds and nations hasn't appeared yet, however. That much is sure.

The beast existed and had existed for while when John wrote revelation:
Revelation 17:10 are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, ONE IS, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while

the 4th beast (rome) came after the 3rd (leopard/Greece), which came after the 2nd (Bear/Persia/mede), which came after the 1st (lion/Babylon)
Daniel 7:18 The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’

It is during the 4th beast (rome) that God would set up his eternal kingdom
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

It is during the roman empire (4th kingdom) that Christ died, rose again, and ascended to receive his kingdom with all authority, power, and dominion. It is during the 1st century that Christ was made ruler of the kings of the earth
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.
Ephesians 1:20-21 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

The Jews killed God's servants
Matthew 22:6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them
And Jesus stated the Jews of the 1st century, who rejected Christ, would be responsible for all the righteous blood shed
Matthew 23:35 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The king is angry because the Jews killed his servants, so he sends an army to destroy them and burn their city
Matthew 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Revelation 17:16-17 the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

After the city of the murders is destroyed, the wedding feast occurs
Matthew 22:8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

After the prostitute is destroyed by the beast, the marriage supper of the lamb comes.
Revelation 19:7,9 for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready; and the angel saida to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

ewq1938 · Sep 25, 2018

Ripheus27 said:
Christianity (the sea-Beast will claim to be an Incarnation of God)

The sea beast is not an individual and will not be the AC nor claim to be God. The sea beast is 10 kings/kingdoms spanning 7 mountains or major land masses which likely symbolizes the entire world.

Only the land beast is an individual, the one who performs miracles, who exercises all the power of the sea beast, the false prophet. He is the one who will be the AC, the one claiming to be God who will sit in the temple of God claiming to be God. His massive world wide beast kingdom will not claim to be God and cannot because it is a massive government. The one wielding all the power, the only individual mentioned in Rev 13 can be the only one we know from outside of Revelation as "the Antichrist".

ewq1938 · Sep 25, 2018

The FP is the Antichrist, the leader and ruler of the ten kingdom/7 mountain empire. The number of his name adding to 666 is the name of the false prophet, the mark of the beast is issued by him because it's his mark. He is also known as the little horn in Daniel.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The same little horn makes war with the saints and prevails!

Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? Same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power.
Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power.

Same "players" same order of appearance.

Little horn = false prophet = antichrist.

DaDad · Sep 25, 2018

ewq1938 said:
...

1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven

And of course the THREE Daniel 7 concurrent beasts for a total of 10 nations:

Permanent Membership on the Security Council

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council [1]

6. Germany – economic power
7. Japan – economic power
8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
10. India – regional representative for the Near East

[1] “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46

The Rev. 13 beast attributes are:

1. Mouth of the Lion -- where the U.K./U.S. has proficiency in Trade, Commerce, Finance, Science, and Technology
2. Body of the Leopard (actually a Tiger) -- where China has the most population mass
3. Feet of the Bear -- where Russia has the most land mass: U.S. ~ 3M; Canada ~3M; China ~3M; Russia ~8M sq. miles.

And there are 10 "little horns", plus the U.N. which makes 11 "little horns":

20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows.

Both Scriptural and Historical. Quite simple.

Thanks,
DaDad

Douggg · Sep 26, 2018

DaDad said:
1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven

And of course the THREE Daniel 7 concurrent beasts for a total of 10 nations:

Permanent Membership on the Security Council

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China
NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council [1]

6. Germany – economic power
7. Japan – economic power
8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
10. India – regional representative for the Near East
[1] “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46
The Rev. 13 beast attributes are:

1. Mouth of the Lion -- where the U.K./U.S. has proficiency in Trade, Commerce, Finance, Science, and Technology
2. Body of the Leopard (actually a Tiger) -- where China has the most population mass
3. Feet of the Bear -- where Russia has the most land mass: U.S. ~ 3M; Canada ~3M; China ~3M; Russia ~8M sq. miles.

And there are 10 "little horns", plus the U.N. which makes 11 "little horns":

20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows.

Both Scriptural and Historical. Quite simple.

Thanks,
DaDad

These are the territories once held by the historic empires that make up the component parts of the beast kingdom. The beast kingdom of the EU, the ten kings, and the beast king, will be controlling these territories with 42 months left in the 7 years, plus all of the historic Roman Empire territory. Basically all of the middleast oil.

Why the sea-Beast/Antichrist/w/e can't literally be Jewish

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One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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Holeless fox

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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