Hell/Hades, The 1000 year reign, and the second death

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
That makes logical sense, however there's something you're not taking into account. What you're forgetting is that Jesus said he would resurrect us on the last day. (John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24) Daniel was also told that he would rest until the last day. (Daniel 12:13)

So then you have to ask yourself, which resurrection is that referring to? The first, or the second? Well, since you're a logical man who uses deductive reasoning, I'm sure you can agree that the last day resurrection can only be the second resurrection since a thousand years can not logically follow the last day.

Do you see how that throws your timeline into disarray?

It doesn't because the last day mentioned by Christ is the day before the thousand years starts...the last day of this age, before the rod of iron rule age begins. Every age or special time period has a last day except of course with the eternity which is an endless age. The last day before the eternity begins is the day of judgment for the unsaved. But when the saved resurrect is the last day of this age before the thousand year age starts.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
So how do you reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 15?

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

There is no conflict. Death is destroyed here:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That is after God kills people who tried attacking the holy city.

DavidPT · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
This is a reference to this:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Only the Father is in heaven at that time so this is not the second coming and not Jesus using the fire.

If it is referring to that, and it indeed may be, that logically places the thousand years before the 2nd coming in that case. Why? Verse 2 in Zechariah 14 happens in this age prior to the 2nd coming. Those in verse 12 that this plague happens to, are meaning the ones in verse 2 who are gathered against Jerusalem, obviously.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is meaning after verse 2 and 12 are fulfilled. The text indicates---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. Obviously that means some survived to live another day, of the nations which came against Jerusalem in verse 2, and some didn't. As to the ones that didn't, what became of them according to the text in Zechariah 14? How can it not be the following?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The text says----And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Has anyone in this verse fought against Jerusalem? Apparently so, therefore verse 12 is being applied to some of these in verse 2 of the nations that come against Jerusalem. And if verse 2 is fulfilled in the end of this present age, then so must the same be true for verse 12. And if verse 12 is meaning Revelation 20:9, there is then no logical way to place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, but that the thousand years must precede the 2nd coming in order for Zechariah 14:12 to not contradict Revelation 20:9, assuming they are both referring to the same event.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
But how do you know the scriptures that say Jesus rules on earth is referring to the current earth?

Because there is no need for a rod of iron rule in the new Earth. Ruling people so strictly is for the thousand years only and that is on this current earth because the new Earth does not happen until after judgment day is over and death is destroyed.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

DavidPT said:
If it is referring to that, and it indeed may be, that logically places the thousand years before the 2nd coming in that case. Why? Verse 2 in Zechariah 14 happens in this age prior to the 2nd coming. Those in verse 12 that this plague happens to, are meaning the ones in verse 2 who are gathered against Jerusalem, obviously.

There is a dif problem here. Verse 2 says the city is taken, women raped and half the people taken captivity but it isn't taken etc in Rev 20 so either this isn't the same event or God changed what he was going to allow the attackers to achieve.

LastSeven · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
It doesn't because the last day mentioned by Christ is the day before the thousand years starts...the last day of this age, before the rod of iron rule age begins. Every age or special time period has a last day except of course with the eternity which is an endless age. The last day before the eternity begins is the day of judgment for the unsaved. But when the saved resurrect is the last day of this age before the thousand year age starts.

But Jesus never said "the last day of this age". Did he? No, he said "the last day" and he said it five times. Martha said it once, and the angel Gabriel said "the end of days".

Clearly "the end of days" can not be a reference to the last day of the age because if there were more days to come then it would not be the end of days. That would be like me saying "After I eat the last skittle, I will eat ten more skittles". Does that sound possible to you?

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

Do you really mean to tell me that there are more days after the end of days?

LastSeven · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
There is no conflict. Death is destroyed here:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That is after God kills people who tried attacking the holy city.

But you said that God kills those people after Jesus' rule. That's definitely in conflict with 1 Corinthians 15 which says Jesus rules until death is destroyed.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
Do you really mean to tell me that there are more days after the end of days?

I have already stated concerning that in my last post. Are you saying there is not more days in a new age after the last day of this age?

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
But you said that God kills those people after Jesus' rule.

After the rod of iron rule. God does kill people after the thousand years. God cannot contradict what God has said. Nothing in Corinthians contradicts anything in Rev.

LastSeven · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I have already stated concerning that in my last post. Are you saying there is not more days in a new age after the last day of this age?

I am saying there are no more days after the last day. That's logical.

LastSeven · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
God cannot contradict what God has said.

No, but you can certainly misunderstand what he has said.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
I am saying there are no more days after the last day. That's logical.

Is it? What day do you think is the last day?

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
No, but you can certainly misunderstand what he has said.

That is what is happening here.

LastSeven · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Is it? What day do you think is the last day?

The day of the Lord of course. That's the day we are all resurrected (both the wicked and the righteous). That is literally when death is swallowed up in victory as we all come to life. It's the day we stand before the throne to receive our allotted inheritance and it is the day we live on the new earth where there will be no more night (and hence no more days beyond that day).

DavidPT · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
There is a dif problem here. Verse 2 says the city is taken, women raped and half the people taken captivity but it isn't taken etc in Rev 20 so either this isn't the same event or God changed what he was going to allow the attackers to achieve.

Keep in mind, you are the one that seems convinced Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 20:9 are referring to the same event. I don't know if it's the same event or not, but that I acknowledge it's possible it could be. And if it is, the thousand years have to precede the 2nd coming in that case. If Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled in the end of this age, and that Zechariah 14:12 is meaning Revelation 20:9, but that Revelation 20:9 is fulfilled a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, how is one to make sense out of that? How can it be the same event in that case? To be the same event they both have to occur during the same era of time. And like I already pointed out, the plagues happen to all the people coming against Jerusalem, which is exactly what some are doing in verse 2.

At least two options then. Either Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 20:9 are not referring to the same event. Or they both are, where one then has to conclude the thousand years have to precede the 2nd coming in order to arrive at a sound conclusion in that case.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

LastSeven said:
The day of the Lord of course. That's the day we are all resurrected (both the wicked and the righteous). That is literally when death is swallowed up in victory as we all come to life. It's the day we stand before the throne to receive our allotted inheritance and it is the day we live on the new earth where there will be no more night (and hence no more days beyond that day).

No night does not mean there aren't more days. It even speaks of fruit appearing every month...a month is 30 days so "the last day" can only apply to the last day of a certain time period.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

There. Where is "there"? The city.

Another mistake you are making is thinking there is no night anywhere. It says only no night in the city, because of how much light it has.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

DavidPT said:
Keep in mind, you are the one that seems convinced Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 20:9 are referring to the same event.

Yes at first glance but the details involved show that it cannot be what is found in Rev 20. Perhaps the same type of fire, but the timeframe and events described are vastly different.

DavidPT · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Yes at first glance but the details involved show that it cannot be what is found in Rev 20. Perhaps the same type of fire, but the timeframe and events described are vastly different.

So let's instead focus on one of your other points in regard to ruling with a rod of iron. I agree with your conclusions concerning that btw.

These survivors in verse 16 of Zechariah 14 have to be mortals. Mortals can't live forever though. And the fact they might not want to comply with certain things at the time, this at least tells us Zechariah 14:16 is meaning a time prior to the great white throne judgment. Zechariah 14:16 is also meaning post the 2nd coming. What periods of time precede the great white throne judgment? Is it not the thousand years and satan's little season? That has to mean Zechariah 14:16 is being fulfilled during the thousand years. And since we see that some might not like some of the rules at the time, it's not hard to envision some of these in verse 16 being of the ones satan deceives when he is loosed. And the fact Adam, a mere mortal, almost lived an entire thousand years in this age, there's no reason these survivors can't still be alive a thousand years later then.

Why some can't fathom that Premil is true, is beyond me. The only thing I can figure out is that to most of these, it's not what both testaments combined say, it's only what one testament says that counts, meaning the NT in this case.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2018

DavidPT said:
So let's instead focus on one of your other points in regard to ruling with a rod of iron. I agree with your conclusions concerning that btw.

These survivors in verse 16 of Zechariah 14 have to be mortals. Mortals can't live forever though. And the fact they might not want to comply with certain things at the time, this at least tells us Zechariah 14:16 is meaning a time prior to the great white throne judgment. Zechariah 14:16 is also meaning post the 2nd coming. What periods of time precede the great white throne judgment? Is it not the thousand years and satan's little season? That has to mean Zechariah 14:16 is being fulfilled during the thousand years. And since we see that some might not like some of the rules at the time, it's not hard to envision some of these in verse 16 being of the ones satan deceives when he is loosed. And the fact Adam, a mere mortal, almost lived an entire thousand years in this age, there's no reason these survivors can't still be alive a thousand years later then.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

men are also called beasts

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So, if the "beasts" of Dan verse 12 can also refers to mortal humans then it makes sense that their lives are "prolonged for a season" living for a thousand years....and after the Mill they all will perish in the same fire, which is exactly what shall take place.

DaDad · Sep 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:
...
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

So, if the "beasts" of Dan verse 12 can also refers to mortal humans then it makes sense that their lives are "prolonged for a season" living for a thousand years....and after the Mill they all will perish in the same fire, which is exactly what shall take place.

Ummmmmm, the "four beasts" represent the participants of the Chapter 2 Clay "divided kingdom". Thus we now have in the world THREE Superpowers and a FOURTH One-World-Government. So when GOD judges the FOURTH "dreadful beast", the THREE Superpowers will continue for a season and a time until Jesus incorporates them into HIS Millennial Kingdom.

But then again, who cares about Scripture and History?!? All we care about is preserving doctrines.

Thanks,
DaDad

Hell/Hades, The 1000 year reign, and the second death

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