Why the sea-Beast/Antichrist/w/e can't literally be Jewish

Original Happy Camper said:

HISTORICALLY

What Kingdoms persecuted GOD'd people in the OT & NT

1-Babylon Gold (secular power)
2-Medeo-Persia Silver (secular power)
3-Greece Bronze (secular power)
4-Pagan Rome Iron (secular power)
Dan 7
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings (TEN TOES of Daniels Image) that shall arise: and another(LITTLE HORN) shall rise after them; and he (LITTLE HORN) shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Papal Rome Miry clay and Iron (secular and religious power)

Ten Barbarian tribes came out of Rome, the fourth beast,
three were exterminated by papal Rome

Notice the diversity, secular and religious power

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The papacy, pope is not qualfied to be the Antichrist because he is not Jewish and is of the wrong religion.

The way the prophecies are structured - the person is...

The King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist, for ~ first half of the 7 years.

The King of the Roman Empire (the fourth kingdom)
as the little horn - before the 7 years begin.
as the beast - for ~ the second half of the 7 years.

Douggg said:

The papacy, pope is not qualfied to be the Antichrist because he is not Jewish and is of the wrong religion.

The way the prophecies are structured - the person is...

The King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist, for ~ first half of the 7 years.

The King of the Roman Empire (the fourth kingdom)
as the little horn - before the 7 years begin.
as the beast - for ~ the second half of the 7 years.

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And there in lies the difference between futurist and historicists

Futurists have to have a literal Israel where as historicists have a spiritual Israel.

The seventieth week of the 70 week prophecy by futurist is in the future (gap) and is applied to the anti-christ where as historicists see it as a continuation (no gap) of the prophecy and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ with his baptism, death, resurrection and the gospel going to the Gentiles.

"70 weeks are determined upon my people" says the prophecy not 69 weeks then wait two thousand years for the final week.

Douggg said:

the fourth beast

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If you want to talk about "kingdoms", then we're in Chapter 2. If you want to talk about "beasts", then we're in Chapter 7.
To get to Chapter 7, you have go through Chapter 2, and apparently you haven't done that. So you'll need to resolve Chapter 2, otherwise your doctrines have no foundation.
Thanks,
DaDad

Original Happy Camper said:

HISTORICALLY ...

1-Babylon Gold (secular power)
2-Medeo-Persia Silver (secular power)
3-Greece Bronze (secular power)
4-Pagan Rome Iron (secular power)

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Ummmm, perhaps you might have a history book handy, because what you assert is neither "Historical" nor Scriptural.


... and where Five ≠ Four, so the FOUR BEASTS must depict the participants in the "divided kingdom".




Hope this helps,
DaDad

Original Happy Camper said:

Are you a futurist or a historicist? It might help others understand your posts as I know it will for me.

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I'm not in any "camp" (no pun intended). I simply look at what Scripture says and what History fulfills.

Take for example 1:21 where Daniel DIED in the First year of KING Cyrus, versus 10:1 where Daniel was alive in the THIRD year of Cyrus KING OF PERSIA.

Calvin couldn't resolve both verses as PERFECTLY CORRECT, so he disregarded 1:21 in deference to 10:1 --


In fact, BOTH 1:21 and 10:1 are PERFECTLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN. All we have to do is find the solution which is IN THE TEXT. And it seems that people are so "instant" minded, that they miss the OBVIOUS.

... and there's a LOT of that in the "christian" community.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad said:

If you want to talk about "kingdoms", then we're in Chapter 2. If you want to talk about "beasts", then we're in Chapter 7.
To get to Chapter 7, you have go through Chapter 2, and apparently you haven't done that. So you'll need to resolve Chapter 2, otherwise your doctrines have no foundation.
Thanks,
DaDad

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Beasts and kingdoms are both in Chapter 7 - stated in the text. It is only kingdoms in Chapter 2.

DaDad said:

Once again, WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CHAPTER 7 "BEASTS"? We were talking about the Chapter 2 KINGDOMS.
Is marijuana legal is your state?
Thanks,
DaDad

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Look.You dont needto count.Daniel has them,numbed foryou and there are four.
Same four kingdoms as the beasts.Try to pay attention .

Daniel 2:38 Wherever the sons of men or beasts of the field or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
Daniel 2:39 But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.
Daniel 2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

Can you not read or you cant understand what you are reading?
See if you can get your mommy or daddy to help you understand these three words.

FINALLY THE FOURTH !!!
Now run get mommy.
Hurry before bedtime.

shilohsfoal said:

Daniel 2:38 Wherever the sons of men or beasts of the field or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
Daniel 2:39 But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.
Daniel 2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.

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Funny how you neglected to complete the quotation:


And of course, verse 45 validates FIVE:


Perhaps if you ask your "significant other", he can read the entire Chapter for you.

Thanks,
DaDad

Douggg said:

... It is only kingdoms in Chapter 2.

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To my point.

Now if you would establish Chapter 2, you might be able to arrive to Chapter 7.
Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad said:

To my point.

Now if you would establish Chapter 2, you might be able to arrive to Chapter 7.
Thanks,
DaDad

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What I arrive at Chapter 7 coming from Chapter 2 is the little horn emerges to the top of an end times kingdom that contains Rome, and is the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom lead by ten kings, of a kingdom that parts of it are weak and other parts strong - currently known as the EU.

btw, the Italians are talking about their own form of Brexit. There are a lot of moving parts to the end times.

President Trump is supposed to present his peace plan to the U.N. General Assembly on Sept 25. The Palestinians have shunned discussions so far. I have heard it is Egypt, Jordan, Saudi the main Arab players. And involves Gaza being taken over by Egypt and Jordan taking over the Palestinians. Jordan is on the east side of the Jordan river, but in the muslim religion the King of Jordan is supposed to be some inherited ruler of the temple mount.

DaDad said:

Funny how you neglected to complete the quotation:

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. ​

And of course, verse 45 validates FIVE:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Perhaps if you ask your "significant other", he can read the entire Chapter for you.

Thanks,
DaDad

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Your still trying to learn how to count but you cant comprehend what you read.
Pathetic

The iron is mixed with with clay.
If you cant understand it,then go get mommy to help you.

The fourth kingdom,as described by Daniel .

Daniel 2:40 KJV: And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Daniel 2:41 KJV: And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Daniel 2:42 KJV: And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Daniel 2:43 KJV: And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

If you couldnt understand daniel description of the fourth kingdom then just try to understand the first sentence.

shilohsfoal said:

... just try ...

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... to believe Scripture and History ...

Douggg said:

What I arrive at Chapter 7 coming from Chapter 2 is the little horn emerges to the top of an end times kingdom that contains Rome, and is the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom lead by ten kings, of a kingdom that parts of it are weak and other parts strong - currently known as the EU.

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Exactly my point.

You've completely ignore the Scriptural evidence of a FIVE distinct and separate world empire scenario, and also the Historical evidence of the FIFTH empire as divided between THREE Superpowers with a one-world-empire entity.

But don't let the facts change your theology.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad said:

Who said "beasts"? "Douggg" and I BOTH said "kingdoms":

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.​

34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;​

45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE
​

Do you see "four" anywhere? Does History support a "four" world empire scenario? Do we pay taxes to "Rome"?

And as previously cited, my first grade teacher INSISTED that Five ≠ Four, so the FOUR BEASTS must depict the participants in the "divided kingdom".


Thanks,
DaDad

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No, not five: FOUR. But when the clay gets mixed with the iron, it is nearing the END of the 4th Beast. I guess you know, Rome was never defeated as all the previous empires were. It is still here, but generations later. That is why chapter 7 shows us 4 beasts.

DaDad said:

Exactly my point.

You've completely ignore the Scriptural evidence of a FIVE distinct and separate world empire scenario, and also the Historical evidence of the FIFTH empire as divided between THREE Superpowers with a one-world-empire entity.

But don't let the facts change your theology.

Thanks,
DaDad

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Not facts; it is imagination.
Here are facts:

Daniel 2:40 KJV: And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Daniel 2:41 KJV: And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;...

WHAT "the kingdom?" Of course the FOURTH Kingdom of verse 40.

DaDad said:

Funny how you neglected to complete the quotation:

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. ​

And of course, verse 45 validates FIVE:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Perhaps if you ask your "significant other", he can read the entire Chapter for you.

Thanks,
DaDad

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Daniel 2:41 KJV: And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.


History
Ever hear of Constantinople
Roman Empire, 4th kingdom, was divided in two by Diocletian, East and West. The west was left to the Bishop of Rome giving him the secular powers for the western half of the kingdom in Rome,

That is why we have the RCC and EOC

Western Roman Empire

The Western Roman Empire was the western part of the Roman Empire which, later, became known as The Holy Roman Empire. By 285 CE the Roman Empire had grown so vast that it was no longer feasible to govern all the provinces from the central seat of Rome. The Emperor Diocletian divided the empire into halves with the Eastern Empire governed out of Byzantium (later Constantinople) and the Western Empire governed from Rome. Both sections were known equally as `The Roman Empire’ although, in time, the Eastern Empire would adopt Greek instead of Latin and would lose much of the character of the traditional Roman Empire.

shilohsfoal said:

Your still trying to learn how to count but you cant comprehend what you read.
Pathetic

The iron is mixed with with clay.
If you cant understand it,then go get mommy to help you.

The fourth kingdom,as described by Daniel .

Daniel 2:40 KJV: And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Daniel 2:41 KJV: And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Daniel 2:42 KJV: And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Daniel 2:43 KJV: And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

If you couldnt understand daniel description of the fourth kingdom then just try to understand the first sentence.

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Good point, Shiloh!

Nebuchadnezzar's dream had the 4th kingdom being the legs signifying divided which rome was into east and west.

Prophecy is History in advance
History is the fulfillment of prophecy

DaDad said:

Funny how you neglected to complete the quotation:

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. ​

And of course, verse 45 validates FIVE:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Perhaps if you ask your "significant other", he can read the entire Chapter for you.

Thanks,
DaDad

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WRONG!!! Nice slight of hand, but you are caught: The "clay" and the "iron" are in the SAME KINGDOM!

Original Happy Camper said:

And there in lies the difference between futurist and historicists

Futurists have to have a literal Israel where as historicists have a spiritual Israel.

The seventieth week of the 70 week prophecy by futurist is in the future (gap) and is applied to the anti-christ where as historicists see it as a continuation (no gap) of the prophecy and was fulfilled by Jesus Christ with his baptism, death, resurrection and the gospel going to the Gentiles.

"70 weeks are determined upon my people" says the prophecy not 69 weeks then wait two thousand years for the final week.

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What? Do you IGNORE that nation on the map that says ISRAEL?