Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Again as in Rev 12, we have a strong relationship between this 42 months of verse 2 and the 1260 days of Rev 11: 3.

But why are they expressed as 42 months in one verse and differently in the very next verse as 1260 days? It is because on the timeline they are are not exact equivalent to each other.

1260 days + 3.5 days + 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 months) = 2520 days, the seven years.

eleos1954 · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
But why are they expressed as 42 months in one verse and differently in the very next verse as 1260 days? It is because on the timeline they are are not exact equivalent to each other.

1260 days + 3.5 days + 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 months) = 2520 days, the seven years.

Because the 42 months is part of the 1260 not an addition to it ... that is it falls within the 1260. Study the book of Daniel (Daniel 7) along with or in relation to Revelation. Revelation is not in chronological order. I'll try and further explain.

THE 1260 DAYS OF DANIEL 7

The number 1260 is not just a rough figure because it is mentioned seven
times in the Bible in various different ways:

Daniel 7:25 "a time, times and half a time"
Daniel 12:7 "a time, times and half a time"
Revelation 11:2 "42 months"
Revelation 11:3 "1260 days"
Revelation 12:6 "1260 days"
Revelation 12:14 "a time, times and half a time"
Revelation 13:5 "forty-two months"

It can be shown that all these texts are referring to the same period of
time:

A time is one year = 360 days
Times are two years = 720 days
Half a time is half a year = 180 days
-----------------------------------------
Therefore the total = 1260 days

A month in prophecy is equal to 30 days, therefore forty-two months is
equal to 42 x 30 = 1260 days.

So we can see that these seven texts are talking about the same period of
time, but what does it mean?

First of all, the prophecy is not referring to literal days. In prophecy a
day is sometimes used to represent a year, and that seems to be the case
here. (See Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6) So the prophecy is talking about
a period of 1260 years.

If we now go back to Daniel 7:25 we can see that it is the power of the
Little Horn which will control the "saints" for this period of time. We
have already suggested that the Little Horn represents "Papal Rome" so does
our figure of 1260 years fit in with the records of history?

Papal Rome defeated the last of its major enemies (the Ostrogoths) in the
year 538 A.D. when Emperor Justinian's decree came into effect. Throughout
the Dark Ages the Catholic church was the most powerful political force in
the whole world, and it used its power for political and financial gain as
well as for religious purposes. Many millions were persecuted and put to
death - "oppressing the saints of the Most High" as Daniel puts it.

However the power of the Papal Church came to an end when the armed forces
of Napoleon, under general Berthier marched into Rome and took the Pope
captive. This happened in the year 1798 A.D. surprisingly (or perhaps not
so surprisingly) exactly 1260 years after the Papacy came to power in 538
A.D.

God Bless.

claninja · Sep 23, 2018

iamlamad said:
You just don't believe John's chronology:

No, I just don't believe your interpretation of John's Chronology, because it forces reader say things like: "now" doesn't really mean "now", but 2000+ years later. It's putting the eschatological view above what Jesus actually says.

iamlamad said:
the exact midpoint is in chapter 11 (at the 7th trumpet) and 12:6 is a second or two later. The SIGNAL for the war in heaven will be the 7th trumpet, so the war will be right after the midpoint - how ever long it takes Michael to get to Satan.

where does revelation 11:15-19 (the 7th trumpet) mention a war between michael and satan?

iamlamad said:
WHEN is Satan "cast out? At the midpoint of the future 70th week.

I actually agree with you that satan is cast out mid 70th week. But I disagree that it is future.

In revelation 12:6, why does the women flee into the wilderness to be nourished for 1260 days?
revelation 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Because the dragon pursues her:
revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Satan is thrown down when Christ ascends. Jesus clearly states this John 12 and John 14. In fact, the woman in revelation 12:6 flees right after her Child goes up to God. In order to make this future to us, one must change the meaning of what Jesus says in John 12 and John 14, which clearly associates satan being cast out and coming with the ascension of Jesus. One must also insert a 2000+ year gap in between Revelation 12:5 and revelation 12:6.

Choose Wisely · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
Anyway, the first six seals give the course of the 7 years, ending with the sixth seal at Jesus's appearing in heaven right before He descends down to earth.

Contrary to what is commonly taught, Jesus does not come down to earth at this point. Read all the scriptures talking about this event. Do any of them say that Jesus comes down to earth? What you see is that there are people being REDEEMED from the earth..........RAPTURED. What you see is angels being sent to gather the elect. This is not when Jesus comes DOWN to earth. He stays in the clouds and sends angels. The tribulation is over and the wrath of God is set to begin.

Mark 13
4 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Choose Wisely · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
Next we get to the seventh seal. And moving forward in the chapters to a critical turning point in Revelation....

The seventh trumpet - signals the time is up, the destruction of Satan and his angels' kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great has come. Which is turn with God dismantling Satan's kingdom, it will be time for the judgment of the dead forthcoming, including rewards for the prophets and saint, and them who fear God's name.

Actually Douggg, Babylon the great is destroyed during the tribulaiton.........before the 6th seal. We can prove this by Rev 14.

Douggg said:
The seventh trumpet presentation signal - where the events it presents are on the 7 year timeline, it sounds right after day 1263.5.

You are correct, and I am wrong.

Douggg said:
The war in heaven ensues, immediately following day 1263.5 and the 7th trumpet sounding. Some earth time passes as the war in the second heaven takes place. Satan and his angels come crashing down to earth, Babylon has fallen, has fallen. They have a time times half time left.

Here is the war in heaven. This is when Satan is cast to the earth.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Here is the war in heaven and then we see the coming of Christ.

Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So how do you conclude that the war in heaven is after the 7th trumpet?

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Contrary to what is commonly taught, Jesus does not come down to earth at this point. Read all the scriptures talking about this event. Do any of them say that Jesus comes down to earth?

It is 45 days later after the sixth seal event that Jesus descends down to earth.

Basically on a timeline it is... the aod setup on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns. day 2475 is the 6th seal day. The kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon and march down to Jerusalem - this takes 45 days. Jesus returns down to earth and executes judgment on them.

day 1........day 1185 aod...then add1290 days till...day 2475 6th seal.....day 2520 Jesus returns.

Jesus descends down to earth with his saints, in Acts 1:11 and Zechariah 14:4-5. And executes judgment on them gathered to make war on him, Revelation 19:19. Which Revelation 19:17-18 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:17-20.

With Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21, having returned to earth among the nations....
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect is after Jesus has returned to the earth, the gathering of the Jews - corresponds to Ezekiel 39:27-28. Jesus speaking in the text.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

CW, this is some critical information:
Ezekiel 39 is critical to understand because it lays out the front and ending of the 7 years. And Jesus Himself is the one speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:17-29.

Gog/Magog_verses 1-16,
then the 7 years
Jesus's return and Jesus speaking in verses 17-29

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
So how do you conclude that the war in heaven is after the 7th trumpet?

Michael standing up for Israel in Daniel 12:1 at that point in history, the end times, is the war in heaven (second heaven) in Revelation 12:7-9.

Why the war in the second heaven to start with... it is God's mystery plan being put into action of bringing the Kingdom of God to earth to be the ruling kingdom - replacing and eliminating Satan's kingdom and Satan himself.

Daniel 12 is about Israel, Daniel's people, as is Daniel 9. Revelation 12 is about Israel during the 7 years. The first five verses being introductory to identify the woman for the rest of the chapter as Israel.

Chapter 12 is linear. Historic Israel in Revelation 12:1-5. Then it jumps to the 7 years, in the end times. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days is the 1260 days of the two witnesses. Near the end of the 1260 days, at day 1185 the aod is setup to be worshiped, and the Jews begin fleeing Jerusalem, in shock that their perceived messiah has betrayed them, and has transformed into the beast.

It is a 75 days period they flee, until the two witnesses are killed. 3 1/2 days later they ascend. A big earthquake. Then the 7th trumpet sounds.

In Revelation 12, the 7th trumpet sounding is not noted in the text - but because the 1260 days are
over, it sounds before verse 12:7 the war in heaven. The 7th trumpet, we can say, is the go signal for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and company - crashing down to earth.

The part about now is come salvation in Revelation 12:10 - it is not talking about us. Salvation came 2000 years ago with Jesus's death and resurrection, and we have received it along with countless other Christians.

Revelation 12:10 is about the Jews finally accepting salvation and Jesus - in the middle of the 7 years.

Back to Daniel 12, after the power of the Jews is broken by the beast, it says there are a time times half time left - that they will have to endure. Daniel 12:7. Which this is time that Satan has left once he is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:14 which he tries to persecute the woman Israel.

The ones who escaped to the wilderness, the earth helps, by swallowing the flood, metaphorical, in that the vials of God's wrath will protect her while she is in the wilderness. Revelation 12:15-16.

However, the ones - the Jews - who do not flee in time, will be stuck in Jerusalem, hostages to the beast and Satan. They are the ones in Revelation 12:17 who Jesus rescues at his return in Zechariah 14, splitting the Mt. of Olives in half.
________________________________________________________
The seven years in Revelation 12:

Revelation 12:6 + Revelation 12:7-9 + Revelation 12:14 = the 7 years.

1260 days + unspecified days + time times half times = 2520 days

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

eleos1954 said:
The number 1260 is not just a rough figure because it is mentioned seven
times in the Bible in various different ways:

Daniel 7:25 "a time, times and half a time"
Daniel 12:7 "a time, times and half a time"
Revelation 11:2 "42 months"
Revelation 11:3 "1260 days"
Revelation 12:6 "1260 days"
Revelation 12:14 "a time, times and half a time"
Revelation 13:5 "forty-two months"

eleos, why different ways?

Revelation 11:3 + Revelation 11:11 + Revelaton 11:2 = the 7 years
1260 days + 3.5 days + 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 month) = 2520 days

Revelation 12:6 + Revelation 12:7-9 + Revelation 12:14 = the 7 years
1260 days + unspecified time (war in second heaven) + time, times, half times = 2520 days

In the first half of the 7 years:
Revelation 11:3, 12:6 1260 days

In the second half of the 7 years
Revelation 11:11 3.5 days
Revelation 11:2, 13:5 42 months
Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 time times half time

eleos1954 · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
eleos, why different ways?

Revelation 11:3 + Revelation 11:11 + Revelaton 11:2 = the 7 years
1260 days + 3.5 days + 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 month) = 2520 days

Revelation 12:6 + Revelation 12:7-9 + Revelation 12:14 = the 7 years
1260 days + unspecified time (war in second heaven) + time, times, half times = 2520 days

In the first half of the 7 years:
Revelation 11:3, 12:6 1260 days

In the second half of the 7 years
Revelation 11:11 3.5 days
Revelation 11:2, 13:5 42 months
Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 time times half time

Because of Daniels Vision in Daniel 8
and notice this verse contains a 3-part question within the conversation

Daniel 8

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, (Questions 1 & 2 - compounded sentence) “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and (Question 3) the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?” 14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

2300 - not 2520 ... needs to equal the 2300
evening/mornings (using day/year principle - since in vision and prophetic) 2300 years.

Choose Wisely · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
It is 45 days later after the sixth seal event that Jesus descends down to earth.

Basically on a timeline it is... the aod setup on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns. day 2475 is the 6th seal day. The kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon and march down to Jerusalem - this takes 45 days. Jesus returns down to earth and executes judgment on them.

day 1........day 1185 aod...then add1290 days till...day 2475 6th seal.....day 2520 Jesus returns.

Jesus descends down to earth with his saints, in Acts 1:11 and Zechariah 14:4-5. And executes judgment on them gathered to make war on him, Revelation 19:19. Which Revelation 19:17-18 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:17-20.

With Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21, having returned to earth among the nations....
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect is after Jesus has returned to the earth, the gathering of the Jews - corresponds to Ezekiel 39:27-28. Jesus speaking in the text.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

CW, this is some critical information:
Ezekiel 39 is critical to understand because it lays out the front and ending of the 7 years. And Jesus Himself is the one speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:17-29.

Gog/Magog_verses 1-16,
then the 7 years
Jesus's return and Jesus speaking in verses 17-29

For starters, can you show me how you conclude that the AOD is set up on day 1185.

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Because of Daniels Vision in Daniel 8
and notice this verse contains a 3-part question within the conversation

Daniel 8

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, (Questions 1 & 2 - compounded sentence) “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and (Question 3) the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?” 14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

2300 - not 2520 ... needs to equal the 2300
evening/mornings (using day/year principle - since in vision and prophetic) 2300 years.

The 2300 days is the time period for when the sacrifices are started again in the seven years, then stopped, then the transgression of desolation take place, then the temple cleansed of that which caused the desolation - at Jesus's return.

On a timeline, it looks like this....by 2520-2300 = 220.

day 1.......... day 220 sacrifices begin again......then stopped (in the middle part of the seven years)... then the transgression of desolation.... .. then day 2520 the day Jesus returns and the beast is removed and is cast into the lake of fire.

We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped. But they have to be started again in order to be stopped - which started again is on day 220. And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27.

the trangsression of desolation is an act. Different from the abomination of desolation which is a thing, an statue image of the beast, an idol. The timing of the two are slightly separated.

The transgression of desolation - the act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, and reveals the Antichrist perceived King of Israel messiah as a transgressor of the Mt. Sinai covenant, the man of sin.

God has him killed for the act, and in disdain for the person, brings him back to life.

Upon being brought back to life, the person is transformed into the beast, and the image of him made. The abomination of desolation. It triggers the great tribulation.

__________________________________________________________________________
It is should be noted that the stages the person goes through follows the chapters of the bible in order.

The little horn, Daniel 7, 8
The prince who shall come, Daniel 9
The Antichrist - the gospels (John 5:42) and 1John2:18
The revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2
The beast - Revelation

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
For starters, can you show me how you conclude that the AOD is set up on day 1185.

First, it is should be noted that the stages the person goes through follows the chapters of the bible in order.

The little horn, Daniel 7, 8
The prince who shall come, Daniel 9
The Antichrist - the gospels (John 5:42) and 1John2:18
The revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2
The beast - Revelation
____________________________________________________________________________

The two witnesses war with the beast - so the person is the beast at that time. Which is near the end of the 1260 days of their time.

From Revelation 11:2 (42 months) and 11:3 (1260 days) , we can see those are different time slots.

The 42 months are also in Revelation 13:5 which are specifically the time the beast rules the world.

So since the beast kills the two witnesses - when they are gone, he is able to rule the remaining 42 months without being hampered by them.

_________________________________________________________________________________

So now we are tasked with the woman in Revelation 12 in the wilderness where she is protected. Why is she in the wilderness? Because she has fled there during the last 75 days of the two witnesses time.

Why has she fled? Because the abomination of desolation is in the holy place, which Jesus said to flee when that happens. And Jesus referenced Daniel the prophet.
_________________________________________________________________________________

So we look at Daniel 12, the abomination of desolation in the end times.

What are our choices? It is not abundantly clear just from the text, imo. We have to incorporate other information from Revelation.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days

_______________________________________________________________________________

Verse 11 could be read a couple of different ways. One is that the daily sacrifice is stopped. Then 1290 days pass. Then the abomination of desolation setup.

But from Daniel 9:27, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the abomination, are connected to take place in the middle of the week - without 1290 days separation.

So the stopping of the daily sacrifice and abomination of desolation are closely coupled. Which 1290 days are related to and take place until something. That something is the sixth seal event in Revelation 12 - the cosmos parting and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Which brings us to verse 12, blessed he that waitheth, which is remain faithful, to the 1335th day - from when the abomination of desolation is setup. The 1335th day is the Day that Jesus returns to planet earth. To end the 70th week, the 2520 day 7 years.

So subtracting 2520-1335= 1185. as the day the abomination of desolation will be placed in the temple.

And from day 1185, 1290 days later - the sixth seal will take place of the cosmos parting and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God. day 1185 +1290 = day 2475. The sixth seal day.

And from day 2475, 45 days later as the armies assemble at Armageddon and head down to Jerusalem - Jesus descends to heaven, in great power and glory, with the saints. And Jesus passes judgment on those armies.

mkgal1 · Sep 23, 2018

Biblegateway has these verses all listed as parallels:

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-21, Revelation 12:6-17, Revelation 12:13 - King James Version

Daniel 9:27

Matthew 24:15-21

Revelation 12:6-17

Revelation 12:13

mkgal1 · Sep 23, 2018

I just can't get the timeline to work to reconcile this passage (Rev 12:6) to fit with the idea that it's referring to the flight to Pella (it's too early, it seems).

This seems to make sense to me right now:

The imagery of the woman’s flight into the wilderness in both v. 6 and v. 14 is clearly based on and alludes to Israel’s exodus from Egypt in the OT. On this see especially Exod. 16:32; Deut. 2:7; 8:3,15-16; 29:5; 32:10; Joshua 24:7; Neh. 9:19,21; Pss. 78:5,15,19;136:16; Hosea 13:5. Indeed, “the two wings of the great eagle” (v. 14) clearly alludes toExod. 19:4 (“I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself”), as well as Deut. 1:31-33 and 32:10-12. The imagery of finding protection beneath God’s “wings” is well-attested in the OT (see Pss. 17:8ff.; 36:7-8; 63:1-2,7; 91:4,11-13; 57:1; 61:4; 55:3,6-8,12-15,21-22. Also see Isa. 40:31 “which predicts that in the future Israel ‘will mount up with wings like eagles’ in the process of returning through ‘the wilderness’ (Isa. 40:3) to their land in the second exodus from Babylon” (Beale, 670).

In the OT the “wilderness” or “desert” often pointed to an uninhabitable place of evil and judgment (see Lev. 16:10; Isa. 13:20-22; 34:10-15; Jer. 9:10-12; 12:10-12; 50:39-40; Lam. 4:19; Ezek. 6:14; 29:5; etc.). On the other hand, Israel’s end-time restoration is often described in terms of yet another exodus or deliverance out of the sinful conditions and oppression of the world and her pagan enemies and into the protective place in the “wilderness” prepared for her by God where she would be nourished and sustained. SeeIsa. 32:15; 35:1; 40:3; 41:18; 43:19-20; 51:3; Jer. 31:2; Ezek. 34:25; Hos. 2:14-15.

The point of all this is that the protective deliverance and nourishment provided by God on behalf of his people, the church, during this present age in which Satan seeks her destruction is likened by John unto yet another, indeed, consummate exodus. The protection is not necessarily physical, for many will suffer martyrdom. Rather, like Rev. 11:1-2 it is a spiritual preservation in the midst of terrible trial and tribulation instigated by the dragon/devil and those on earth through whom he works. ~ War in Heaven, War on Earth: A Study in Revelation 12 - Part I

From BibleStudyTools:
As Israel had its time of first bridal love, on its first going out of Egypt into the wilderness, so the Christian Church's wilderness-time of first love was the apostolic age, when it was separate from the Egypt of this world, having no city here, but seeking one to come; having only a place in the wilderness prepared of God ( Revelation 12:6 Revelation 12:14 ) ~ Revelation 12 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

ToServe · Sep 23, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

Also.....doesn't it mark the "end of the age" (the Old Covenant/Temple Age)?

Quoting Doug Beaumont-------->The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.

Preterist presupposition galore.

I find your post very interesting and accurate, yet missing vital points that invalidate the 70AD narrative.

First of all, I will endeavour to address your post at length later God willing.

The major flaw in the 70AD narrative which I term the Full Preterist Fake News is that it is reported that the Book of Revelation was dispensed before 70AD, around the turbulent times leading up to the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman forces made up of the coalition of the many nations.

John is instructed to write urgent letters to the 7 Churches in Asia Minor instructing their Apostolic Heads to preach yet again from the little sweet book that alludes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sending letters to the 7 Churches that have fled and are in hiding is a sure way to flush them out and so the letters could have been seen as a trap. Secondly, no one in their right mind would preach the Gospel when a war is looming that will incinerate Jerusalem whereby the factionalized enemies would cease on anyone who is found to be not siding with them in this war. The essence of preaching the Gospel and the importance therein is that people who are being preached to, need to be receptive to the gospel and wartime is not an environment that would be conducive for the commission.

The book could not have been written in 68 AD as Full Preterists presume, but rather it is written three decades later after the 70AD fact which is symbolically alluded to by John as the 1st Beast and false religious system (False Prophet) that went down in flames in 70AD.

eleos1954 · Sep 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The 2300 days is the time period for when the sacrifices are started again in the seven years, then stopped, then the transgression of desolation take place, then the temple cleansed of that which caused the desolation - at Jesus's return.

On a timeline, it looks like this....by 2520-2300 = 220.

day 1.......... day 220 sacrifices begin again......then stopped (in the middle part of the seven years)... then the transgression of desolation.... .. then day 2520 the day Jesus returns and the beast is removed and is cast into the lake of fire.

We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped. But they have to be started again in order to be stopped - which started again is on day 220. And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27.

the trangsression of desolation is an act. Different from the abomination of desolation which is a thing, an statue image of the beast, an idol. The timing of the two are slightly separated.

The transgression of desolation - the act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, and reveals the Antichrist perceived King of Israel messiah as a transgressor of the Mt. Sinai covenant, the man of sin.

God has him killed for the act, and in disdain for the person, brings him back to life.

Upon being brought back to life, the person is transformed into the beast, and the image of him made. The abomination of desolation. It triggers the great tribulation.

__________________________________________________________________________
It is should be noted that the stages the person goes through follows the chapters of the bible in order.

The little horn, Daniel 7, 8
The prince who shall come, Daniel 9
The Antichrist - the gospels (John 5:42) and 1John2:18
The revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2
The beast - Revelation

We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped. But they have to be started again in order to be stopped - which started again is on day 220. And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27.

Douggg said:
The 2300 days is the time period for when the sacrifices are started again in the seven years, then stopped, then the transgression of desolation take place, then the temple cleansed of that which caused the desolation - at Jesus's return.

On a timeline, it looks like this....by 2520-2300 = 220.

day 1.......... day 220 sacrifices begin again......then stopped (in the middle part of the seven years)... then the transgression of desolation.... .. then day 2520 the day Jesus returns and the beast is removed and is cast into the lake of fire.

We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped. But they have to be started again in order to be stopped - which started again is on day 220. And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27.

the trangsression of desolation is an act. Different from the abomination of desolation which is a thing, an statue image of the beast, an idol. The timing of the two are slightly separated.

The transgression of desolation - the act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, and reveals the Antichrist perceived King of Israel messiah as a transgressor of the Mt. Sinai covenant, the man of sin.

God has him killed for the act, and in disdain for the person, brings him back to life.

Upon being brought back to life, the person is transformed into the beast, and the image of him made. The abomination of desolation. It triggers the great tribulation.

__________________________________________________________________________
It is should be noted that the stages the person goes through follows the chapters of the bible in order.

The little horn, Daniel 7, 8
The prince who shall come, Daniel 9
The Antichrist - the gospels (John 5:42) and 1John2:18
The revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2
The beast - Revelation

****
"We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped".

will be? They were and are stopped.

Didn't say specific day .... it was the ending of the need of the sacrificial system ( year when Jesus was sacrificed ... Jesus was/is the final sacrifice .... granted it took a few years for the practice of it to totally stop ... they didn't have email and TV ;o) joking .... but the point is they stopped .... the need for them to continue was stopped at the cross.

Hebrews 10

7 Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:

I have come to do Your will, O God.’”

... 8 In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are required by the Law) {Mosaic Law - sacrificial system}. 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation). 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

ok .... so you put forth a lot of theology that's fine we may or may not get to all the discussion about all that .... What was the purpose of the earthly sanctuaries? On Mt. Sinai God told Moses to put the sanctuary system (on earth) in place and with significant detail. Why? And what about all those details and why so detailed? Why? What is Jesus doing in heaven right now?

No need for sacrifices, priests etc. nor the earthly sanctuary/system. The earthly sanctuary(s) were on earth so we would understand the "real sanctuary" (in heaven) that is and always has been in heaven. Jesus is our high priest ....

Psalm 77
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

A lot to consider.

God Bless.

DaDad · Sep 23, 2018

eleos1954 said:
... And stopped in the middle of the seven years, Daniel 9:27. ...

Hey eleos1954,
Please be aware that the Daniel 9 commentary version has so many problems, that it's a USELESS "ancient-fulfillment" portent *. Neither the Scriptural specifics nor the Historical assignments work.

As such, you might wish to consider obeying the angel's guidance in 12:4 & 9.

*

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".
2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.
3. Per "Young": Daniel 9:25"going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD.
4. Per "Newton": The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.
5. Per "Newton": The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.
6. Per "Young, Keil, & Kliefoth": The "weeks" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.
7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.
8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth"week", but "shall come" after the seventieth "week".
9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.
10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.

Thanks,
DaDad

ToServe · Sep 23, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

3.5 symbolizes the two witnesses who go through the Great Tribulation when commissioned to Preach the Gospel.

The two witnesses before God is the Commissioned Church. The Church who symbolizes the Woman fled into the wilderness and her seed who had the Gospel of the Son went to preach the Gospel AFTER the 1st Beast and the False Religious System went down in flames AFTER the 70AD Fact.

Revelation 1:10-11
I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel, and I ate it; and it was sweet as honey in my mouth; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter.

11And they say to me, “It is necessary for you to prophesy again concerning many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.”

John is writing to the 7 Churches instructing them to restart the commission to preach YET AGAIN from the little sweet book that is the Gospel and to accept its bitterness after preaching it, implying that it will get you into trouble, therefore, pointing to Tribulation AFTER the FACT (70AD).

mkgal1 said:
Also.....doesn't it mark the "end of the age" (the Old Covenant/Temple Age)?

It marks the End of the New Covenant Age when Christ returns and when the books are opened and where Jesus Judges the Living and the Dead in the Final Judgement of the Dead.

The END implies that everyone that needs to be saved throughout the Great Harvest of God from the New Testament Temple is now accounted for in the Book of Life (BOL) and there are no more humans to be born that would add further names to the BOL registry. Hence the phrase

The Judgment of the Dead

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

When Hell and Biological Death are both thrown in the Lake of Fire then it signals that Satan is no more, Death biological and spiritual is no more, pointing to the time where Jesus has reigned through his Cross and defeated the last enemy death, so that he now becomes subject to the Father implying that His Cross has run its course in saving all who are to be born and to be saved throughout the Great Harvest in the NT and that the Registry of Book Of Life accounts for everyone, that is GOD is ALL in ALL.

This obviously did not happen in 70AD, because you and I were not yet born and were yet to be accounted for in the Book of Life until the Cross saved us and hence the Power of the Cross continued after 70AD and Jesus continued to reign through his Cross by making many subjects /disciples to it.

The Full Preterist implications are now being divulged by their teachers is that the Power of the Cross and of the Holy Spirit ended in 70AD and that Jesus stopped reigning in 70AD and was made subject to the Father where God should have been all in all accounting for everyone that ever needed to be written in the Book of Life registry.

The 3.5 years must line up with the seed of the 1st Century Woman the Church who continued as the symbol of the two witnesses to preach from the little sweet book until the end of the Great Harvest that is at the end of the New Covenant Age when Jesus would have defeated the Last enemy Death and that the mission of the Cross would have accomplished what it was set out to do.

3.5 years after Christ's 3.5 years ministry is the entire NT commission of the Church to Yet Preach Again as John instructed the 7 Church Heads in Asia Minor. Notice the two witnesses are raised into Heaven after 3.5 days, at the Resurrection of the Dead at Christ's brilliant return when he Judges the Living and the Dead at the Final Judgement of the Dead.

mkgal1 · Sep 23, 2018

ToServe said:
It marks the End of the New Covenant Age

The New Covenant Age (which, when the Bible was written, was the "age to come") has NO end. Where do you see more than two "ages" mentioned in the Bible, because I only see two? :

"This age" and the "age to come."

Matthew 12:32 (NKJV) "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
The word "come" at the end of the verse is the Greek word mello, which means: " about to be." We could translate this, the "age about to come" (in the first century). Many think that the age to come will be a sinless age; not according to this verse. Sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in that age, referring to the age of the New Covenant, our present age. We see here that both of these ages have sin in them.

Ephesians 1:21 (NKJV) far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
Here again, we see the two ages. So, the New Testament speaks of two ages, "this age" and "the age to come." The understanding of these two ages and when they changed is fundamental to interpreting the Bible. ~ David B Curtis

The age that has (had) an end was the Old Covenant age (the present age, when the Bible was written).

Douggg · Sep 23, 2018

eleos1954 said:
"We don't have enough information of what specific day the sacrifices will be stopped".

will be? They were and are stopped.

Didn't say specific day .... it was the ending of the need of the sacrificial system ( year when Jesus was sacrificed ... Jesus was/is the final sacrifice .... granted it took a few years for the practice of it to totally stop ... they didn't have email and TV ;o) joking .... but the point is they stopped .... the need for them to continue was stopped at the cross.

The vision of the 2300 days and little horn is time of the end - end times.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The reason why we can not determine the day in the seven years is because the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation - without warning.

The Jews and the world at the time, the first three years of the 7 years, will be thinking they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety - following Gog/Magog. The 7 years are between Ezekiel 39:16 and Ezekiel 39:17.

It will be the peace and safety of 1Thessalonains5. 1Thessalonians5 is actually a continuation of the resurrection/rapture verses in 1Thessalonias4:15-18. But it is also Paul saying when the Day of the Lord takes place - at a time when the Jews and the world are saying peace and safety.

1Thessalonian5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
____________________________________________________________________________

Although they shall not escape, them looking for Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 shall escape. Which the resurrection/rapture - whether asleep in Christ or alive in Christ at the time shall escape - before the Day of the Lord begins. What is not known is how long before. Could happen anytime.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

___________________________________________________________________________

So when we go to 2Thessalonians2:3-4, regarding the sudden beginning of the Day of the Lord, Paul expands to say....

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The falling away will be when the Antichrist is touted as the messiah by the Jews and anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet - it will appear to many that the Jews were right all along, and many will turn away from believing that Jesus is the messiah. That will take place during the first thee years of the seven years.

Then on the unknown day, the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and commits the Transgression of Desolation act. Which triggers the Day of the Lord beginning years.

God has him killed for it in Ezekiel 28:1-10, code name the prince of tyre (Tyrus).

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up *, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God,** in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:*

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

*Daniel 8:25 and he shall magnify himself in his heart,
**2Thessalonians2:4 so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
_____________________________________________________________

Then in Isaiah 14:19-20, in disdain for the person, God brings him back alive, to fulfill His purpose. And brought back alive, the person transitions from having been the Antichrist, the illegitimate King of Israel, to being the revealed man of sin, to becoming the beast of Revelation 13. Of whom, the image is made of him and placed in the temple - the Abomination of Desolation.

Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

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