2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

AndOne · Sep 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Let me get this straight. You really believe that those who believe but hate their brother aren't given eternal life? We know your pet verse doesn't say that, or anything close to that, so where in the universe did you get that from? Please identify your source.

It just says such a person doesn't have eternal life abiding in him. It says nothing about not being given eternal life.

Nor does it say that eternal life will be take away from him.

Further, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

So explain how a believer, who hates another believer and therefore doesn't have eternal life abiding in him shall never perish?

Or do you just oppose what Jesus said?

One thing is certain - the verse in question is a warning. I am believer and I personally don't want to be told by the Lord (or one of His apostles) that I don't have eternal life abiding in me. No matter how you interpret it - weather it means "perish" - or - I just don't have eternal life abiding in me at the moment I am hating my brother - its not a good thing. Hopefully we can all agree on that at least.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Using your opinion tagged with a scripture reference to refute an actual scripture shows your lack of integrity towards The doctrine of Christ.

Please fix your broken record routine. If I "tag" any verse in any kind of incorrect way, you are obligated as another poster with another view to show HOW and WHY it was incorrect. All you do is whine about citing references. Do something about it, if there is anything to complain about. Your whining isn't helpful to your own view.

Yours is the false grace message that is not according to godliness and holiness, and not according to the doctrine of Christ.

Where does godliness and holiness fit into the concept of grace? That's your whole problem. You either fail miserably to understand grace, or you just don't like it.

Grace is PRECISELY the reason we can be saved. Because our "godliness and holiness" ain't good enough to meet God's standard. But you don't believe that, it seems.

Correct me, if I'm wrong. You just hate the idea that someone who sins will enter heaven. That's a GRACELESS opinion.

The ONLY REASON you will enter heaven is because of grace. Why do you think you are going to earn the right to enter heaven, or that you deserve it?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Only those Christian’s who continue in the doctrine of Christ have Him.

Your failure to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship is stunning.

Which has led you down the path of much false doctrine.

You are far away from 2 Tim 2:15 - Be diligent (by studying) to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Your opinions demonstrate a failure to correctly handle the word of truth.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
A brother who hates his brother is a murderer.

Yep.

Did Jesus die for all sins, or only the ones that offend you?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15

It doesn't matter how many times you quote a verse. Or even just cite the reference. You just continually demonstrate your failure to correctly handle the word of truth.

And now you are quoting a verse that clearly indicates that believers who DON'T hate their brothers HAVE eternal life abiding in them.

So, you can't have it both ways. You used to argue, regarding John 10:28, that eternal life was given at "the judgment". Dum de dum dum. That one.

So, which is it? When is eternal life given? Please answer.

If you believe a person who does not have eternal life abiding in them somehow still has eternal life, then please post the scripture that says a person without eternal life abiding in them still has eternal life.
JLB

I'll do much better than to fall for your silly questions and requests.

I'll quote what Jesus said about those who believe:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These 3 verses make it very clear that eternal life is PRESENTLY POSSESSED by those who believe.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

And this verse proves that it's a done deal WHEN one believes.

Combine these FACTS (verses) with John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And you have the FACT that those who believe and POSSESS eternal life, shall never perish.

And, both John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. and 2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

say that it is only those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

I'll ask you for an equally silly request, just like yours:

Quote the verse that says those who used to believe will be condemned.

Checkmate. Over.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Please stop making up lies about what I say, if you can.

Both gr8grace and I can only respond to what you post. We have no idea what may be swirling around in your head. Nor would we presume to know.

So it should behoove you to explain yourself, at least once in a while.

This was a statement made to you:
Gr8Grace said: ↑
You don't believe ANYBODY has eternal life in them.

Your answer:

A born again Christian who is joined to Christ, in which they are one spirit with Him, are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Followed by a very long and tedious post, which did nothing to clarify anything.

So, let's just clear the air, ok? WHEN does a person receive the gift of eternal life?

Specifically when is the issue at discussion.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 23, 2018

AndOne said:
One thing is certain - the verse in question is a warning. I am believer and I personally don't want to be told by the Lord (or one of His apostles) that I don't have eternal life abiding in me. No matter how you interpret it - weather it means "perish" - or - I just don't have eternal life abiding in me at the moment I am hating my brother - its not a good thing. Hopefully we can all agree on that at least.

Sure it's a warning. But not about losing salvation. That would make Jesus a huge LIAR.

I just don't understand anyone who claims to be a believer in Christ not believing what He said in John 10:28.

AndOne · Sep 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure it's a warning. But not about losing salvation. That would make Jesus a huge LIAR.

I just don't understand anyone who claims to be a believer in Christ not believing what He said in John 10:28.

Yea - as a believer I'm more concerned about the warning itself though. I mean I would want to get to the root of what "not having eternal life abiding in him..." would exactly mean if its not about losing salvation. Even if its not about losing salvation - it can't be good. What do you think it means?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 23, 2018

AndOne said:
Yea - as a believer I'm more concerned about the warning itself though. I mean I would want to get to the root of what "not having eternal life abiding in him..." would exactly mean if its not about losing salvation.

We know from many verses that it can't be about losing salvation. It 's just not possible.

Even if its not about losing salvation - it can't be good. What do you think it means?

It has to do with living the life. It's really not a warning about loss specifically. It's more of a statement of fact of one's status; not living in the sphere of their Christianity.

And you are correct; it's not good to be in that status.

There are many verses that warn that believers who don't live a supernatural life by means of the Holy Spirit are out of fellowship with the Lord (1 Jn 1:3-9), cannot bear fruit (John 15:-6), and will lose eternal reward (2 Cor 5:10, Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12).

I'd be happy to discuss any of these verses, but one at a time.

AndOne · Sep 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd be happy to discuss any of these verses, but one at a time.

No thanks - I'm good - just curious to know what you thought it meant. Thanks for sharing.

Gr8Grace · Sep 23, 2018

Gr8Grace said: ↑
You don't believe ANYBODY has eternal life in them.

JLB777 said:
Please stop making up lies about what I say, if you can.

JLB777 said:
This of course is not the same as having a resurrected body that will never die, and given eternal life at the resurrection of life.

I ain't lying, that's for sure.

Born again Christians HAVE eternal life......right now.
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

JLB777 · Sep 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Where does godliness and holiness fit into the concept of grace?

Thank you for exposing the fact you don’t have any idea about what your talking about.

Grace is the power of God enabling us to do what we can not do without it.

Whether the power to obey the Gospel and be born again or the power to obey His doctrine and His commandments.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

All three scriptures say the same thing in different ways.

His doctrine, His commandments, His message is about love.

Loving God by obeying His commandment to love our neighbor.

Grace; The Spirit is grace empowers us to do that very thing.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

JLB

Gr8Grace · Sep 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Where does godliness and holiness fit into the concept of grace?

JLB777 said:
Thank you for exposing the fact you don’t have any idea about what your talking about.

FreeGrace said:
That's your whole problem. You either fail miserably to understand grace, or you just don't like it.

Grace is PRECISELY the reason we can be saved. Because our "godliness and holiness" ain't good enough to meet God's standard. But you don't believe that, it seems.

Correct me, if I'm wrong. You just hate the idea that someone who sins will enter heaven. That's a GRACELESS opinion.

The ONLY REASON you will enter heaven is because of grace. Why do you think you are going to earn the right to enter heaven, or that you deserve it?
~~~~~~

Worth repeating.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2018

AndOne said:
No thanks - I'm good - just curious to know what you thought it meant. Thanks for sharing.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Born again Christians HAVE eternal life......right now.

The other poster seems to be totally confused as to what to believe. He argues out of both sides of his mouth, with very loose lips.

He has argued that eternal life is given at "the judgment", without any further explanation. Then he argues that believers who hate their brother don't HAVE eternal life. So he's conflicted big time.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

From all he's posted, it appears he doesn't believe this verse, and many others.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Where does godliness and holiness fit into the concept of grace?

FreeGrace said:
That's your whole problem. You either fail miserably to understand grace, or you just don't like it.

Grace is PRECISELY the reason we can be saved. Because our "godliness and holiness" ain't good enough to meet God's standard. But you don't believe that, it seems.

Correct me, if I'm wrong. You just hate the idea that someone who sins will enter heaven. That's a GRACELESS opinion.

The ONLY REASON you will enter heaven is because of grace. Why do you think you are going to earn the right to enter heaven, or that you deserve it?
~~~~~~

Worth repeating.

Yes, absolutely worth repeating.

It's clear my post went clear over his head. And he has clearly demonstrated his own failure to understand grace.

JLB777 · Sep 26, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Where does godliness and holiness fit into the concept of grace?

FreeGrace said:
That's your whole problem. You either fail miserably to understand grace, or you just don't like it.

Grace is PRECISELY the reason we can be saved. Because our "godliness and holiness" ain't good enough to meet God's standard. But you don't believe that, it seems.

Correct me, if I'm wrong. You just hate the idea that someone who sins will enter heaven. That's a GRACELESS opinion.

The ONLY REASON you will enter heaven is because of grace. Why do you think you are going to earn the right to enter heaven, or that you deserve it?
~~~~~~

Worth repeating.

Grace is the Holy Spirit: The Spirit of Grace.

Grace is the power to obey.

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:3

JLB

Gr8Grace · Sep 26, 2018

JLB777 said:
Grace is the Holy Spirit: The Spirit of Grace.

Grace is unmerited favor from God............the moment we believe.

Your theology INSULTS His Grace, and His permanent seal of the Holy Spirit. Your theology says His blood(life, death and resurrection) is unclean and we need to clean it up a bit through our lifetime to see if we get eternal life at the end.

Heb 10:29~~New American Standard Bible
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

JLB777 said:
Grace is the power to obey.

So grace failed when you don't get your eternal life at the judgment.

JLB777 said:
And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:3

True.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2018

JLB777 said:
Grace is the Holy Spirit: The Spirit of Grace.

You don't know what you are talking about. Your statement doesn't make any sense.

Here is a scholarly definition of 'grace' from Eph 2:8 -

NT:5485 charis (khar'-ece); from NT:5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):

KJV - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Not one mention about the Holy Spirit. Grace is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Grace is the power to obey.

Go back to the definition above and see if you can find any mention about 'power to obey'.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:3
JLB

And how does this verse relate to your nonsense comments here?

JLB777 · Sep 27, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Not one mention about the Holy Spirit. Grace is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

and insulted the Spirit of grace?

JLB

JLB777 · Sep 27, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You don't know what you are talking about. Your statement doesn't make any sense.

Here is a scholarly definition of 'grace' from Eph 2:8 -

NT:5485 charis (khar'-ece); from NT:5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):

KJV - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Not one mention about the Holy Spirit. Grace is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Go back to the definition above and see if you can find any mention about 'power to obey'.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

And how does this verse relate to your nonsense comments here?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Please explain how a brother still has eternal life in him who hates his brother.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Sep 27, 2018

JLB777 said:
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

and insulted the Spirit of grace?

JLB

You sure have a strange way of understanding Scripture. I gave the Greek definition of the Greek word translated "grace". Deal with it.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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