Hell/Hades, The 1000 year reign, and the second death

DavidPT said:

What should we make of the following then?
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

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This unfulfilled prophecy is one of the 100+ that describe the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a literal day of extreme heat, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, which will all be caused by an explosion of the suns surface, with a massive CME striking the earth.

The Lord will not be seen on that Day; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

It is quite wrong to think that Jesus actually comes in fire, at His Return. The 3 main scriptures we have that describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21, do not mention fire at all and Jesus simply destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

ewq1938 said:

This one makes clear Christ comes in "fire" not using it as a weapon.

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Did you read the rest of them is the question?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Or do you always ignore or explain away those verses that destroy your doctrine?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(How many mortals are left on earth at the end of the passage above?)


Do you claim that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order?
.

keras said:

This unfulfilled prophecy is one of the 100+ that describe the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
It will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a literal day of extreme heat, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, which will all be caused by an explosion of the suns surface, with a massive CME striking the earth.

The Lord will not be seen on that Day; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

It is quite wrong to think that Jesus actually comes in fire, at His Return. The 3 main scriptures we have that describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21, do not mention fire at all and Jesus simply destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

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Per my understanding the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming at some point, where it in turn involves the day of the Lord. I tend to think some of the events in the 6th seal fits after the GT but prior to the 2nd coming. IOW they fit where what I have underlined below.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice that what I have underlined follows the GT. Also notice the two 'then's in verse 30. Notice what the 2nd 'then' leads to----and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Maybe Preterists might argue that that is not the 2nd coming, but I'm not Preterist though, so to me it is referring to the 2nd coming and that what I have underlined appears to match some of the events in the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



and the stars shall fall from heaven(Matthew 24:29). Wonder where they might be falling to? Could it be the earth? I would think so. And isn't that exactly where Revelation 6:13 indicates they fall unto? How many times are the stars of heaven going to do that? Only one time? Or more than one time? If only once, it is then ludicrous to conclude the events of the 6th seal do not also involve the 2nd coming since Matthew 24:29-30 proves otherwise. Only a Preterist would have reason to argue otherwise. Maybe Pretribbers as well, almost forgot about them. And since you are not a Preterist nor a Pretribber as far as I can tell, it would seem pretty strange if you were to argue against the 2nd coming being involved during the 6th seal.

keras said:

It is quite wrong to think that Jesus actually comes in fire, at His Return. The 3 main scriptures we have that describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21, do not mention fire at all and Jesus simply destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

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As to Him coming in fire, as in using fire as a weapon, if it involves raining fire and brimstone down on folks, such as Ezekiel 38:22 tends to show, how can it not be used as a weapon then?

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

This also involves the 2nd coming, what I have underlined. As to verse 12, could raining fire and brimstone down upon these cause those things to happen? I don't know for certain since I have never seen fire and brimstone rained down on anyone before, yet I don't have a hard time imagining that fire and brimstone might do that to someone if rained down on them though.

BABerean2 said:

Did you read the rest of them is the question?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Or do you always ignore or explain away those verses that destroy your doctrine?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(How many mortals are left on earth at the end of the passage above?)


Do you claim that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order?
.

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You would do well if you tried interpreting these things with all of the Scriptures involved, and not just some of them. Yet once again you are totally ignoring Zechariah 14 and the fact it shows mortal survivors post the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

How can this not involve the DOTL and the 2nd coming?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

How can this not be meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?

DavidPT said:

You would do well if you tried interpreting these things with all of the Scriptures involved, and not just some of them. Yet once again you are totally ignoring Zechariah 14 and the fact it shows mortal survivors post the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

How can this not involve the DOTL and the 2nd coming?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

How can this not be meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?

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Why would you totally redefine the clear words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-46, and the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the words recorded by John in Revelation 11:18, in favor of the less clear revelation found in the Old Testament?

If you have to ignore the New Testament, and use the Old Testament instead, you are on very shaky ground.
This is what is required to make the Premill doctrine work.

.

ewq1938 said:

Rev 2 says the saints do not rule until after the second coming and after the end has come. Has Jesus returned yet? Have the dead in Christ resurrected from the dead? Did the rapture happen? Where are all these immortal people at?

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Please be specific so I know what to debate you on.

ewq1938 said:

If you are ruling now you are doing a horrible job of it since the nations are running amuck and killing Christians. The rod of iron reign isn't happening because all that craziness in the world would not be able to happen.

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You're expecting Christ's reign to be a physical reign ruling over all the people on earth? Isn't that the same mistake the Jews made when He was here 2000 years ago?

ewq1938 said:

TIn Premil, there is no sin and death during that time.

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So you believe there is no death during Jesus reign? You must then believe that death is defeated at the beginning of Jesus' reign. Is that what you believe?

ewq1938 said:

Christ returns before th Millennium even begins.

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On what basis do you believe that Christ returns before the millennium begins?

ewq1938 said:

No. After the reign God in heaven will kill people with fire.

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So there is no death during Jesus' reign but there is death after Jesus' reign? That doesn't jive with 1 Corinthians 15. It says that Jesus reigns until death is swallowed up in victory. Which means death is destroyed first, then Jesus reign ends. So there can be no death after Jesus' reign. It also means that there is still death during Jesus' reign because as soon as death is swallowed up in victory (the last enemy is made his footstool) his reign ends.

ewq1938 said:

"You're expecting Jesus' reign to be a physical reign on earth".

That's what the bible states.

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But how do you know whether that's referring to the new earth or the old earth?

ewq1938 said:

Rev 20 says the dead will be resurrected and rule with Christ, and they died for refusing the mark of the beast. That mark comes in the great Trib, and Jesus comes at the 7th trump and the trib ends so they only time the dead saints resurrect is the 7th trump thus Rev 20 places that resurrection before the start of the thousand years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The only way the dead can "live and reign" is to be resurrected and the resurrection happens when Christ returns. This is why we know Jesus returns and resurrects the dead in Christ before the start of the thousand years.

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That makes logical sense, however there's something you're not taking into account. What you're forgetting is that Jesus said he would resurrect us on the last day. (John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24) Daniel was also told that he would rest until the last day. (Daniel 12:13)

So then you have to ask yourself, which resurrection is that referring to? The first, or the second? Well, since you're a logical man who uses deductive reasoning, I'm sure you can agree that the last day resurrection can only be the second resurrection since a thousand years can not logically follow the last day.

Do you see how that throws your timeline into disarray?

ewq1938 said:

Rev 20 assures that there is death after the reign.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Do you think they survive this?

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So how do you reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 15?

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

ewq1938 said:

It's the current Earth...the new Earth doesn't happen until judgment day is finished.

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But how do you know the scriptures that say Jesus rules on earth is referring to the current earth?