Predestination is based on Free Will

sdowney717 said in post #199:

Another thing those who reject God for choosing us is the verse that says we are His workmanship.

Since we are that, then Salvation is of the lord, not of yourself, for by grace are you saved. He is the potter, He has made from the same lump both vessels of His mercy for glory and of His justice for wrath.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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That's right.

And it is a hard pill to swallow for us proud humans, but the fact remains that God does not love every human, for He hates nonelect humans (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect humans in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.

God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

Bible2+ said:

Or John 6:29 can mean that only God can make people believers (John 6:65).

For believers must ultimately have works in addition to their belief (James 2:24).



No, it does not precede it. They are simultaneous (Acts 15:9).

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Once again cherry picking one verse when previous verses show that God saves based on what is in the heart, not by irresistible regeneration. This is not how one discovers the whole of truth. The Word is not meant to be read as isolated verses, but as a whole.

Loren T. said in post #202:

[Re: John 6:65]

Once again cherry picking one verse when previous verses show that God saves based on what is in the heart, not by irresistible regeneration.

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Note that the previous verses don't say that God saves based on what is in the heart, because it is evil in everyone (Romans 3:9-12).

That's why John 6:65 is necessary.

Loren T. said in post #202:

This is not how one discovers the whole of truth. The Word is not meant to be read as isolated verses, but as a whole.

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Note that what John 6:65 says is in accord with the whole of Biblical truth.

That is, no other verse contradicts what John 6:65 says.

Bible2+ said:

Note that the previous verses don't say that God saves based on what is in the heart, because it is evil in everyone (Romans 3:9-12).

That's why John 6:65 is necessary.



Note that what John 6:65 says is in accord with the whole of Biblical truth.

That is, no other verse contradicts what John 6:65 says.

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John 6:65 is not a problem verse for the arminian. We agree that God has to give souls to Jesus. But, you need to read scripture as a whole to understand it. Picking out a verse here and there will always lead to misunderstandings. You might ask, why was Jesus telling the jews these things?
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

If God had rendered them incapable of believing then what is the point of telling them to believe?

"Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life."

What he was telling them was that the father would bring all who had truly learned from God. Why? Because these men had the scriptures that testified of Jesus but most were blind to them, because they refused to see. Jesus would late say that all who seek, find. To all who knock, the door will be opened. These Jews for the most part were not truly seeking, but Jesus still explains to them what they needed to do to become his. And as Paul says, they did not fall so far that they could not be saved. Perhaps some later became believers when they realized that Christ had fulfilled the law with his death and resurrection. Reading individual election into the text is importing ideas that are not there in a plain reading.

Loren T. said in post #204:

[Re: John 6]

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

If God had rendered them incapable of believing then what is the point of telling them to believe?

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Note that He is not telling them to believe, because only God can cause people to become believers (John 6:65).

Instead, John 6:28-29 means that for people to work the works of God, they must believe in Jesus Christ. For apart from Jesus, people cannot work any works of God (John 15:5b).

Loren T. said in post #204:

[John 6:45b]

"Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life."

What he was telling them was that the father would bring all who had truly learned from God.

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Something which nonelect people can never do (John 8:42-47).

Loren T. said in post #204:

Jesus would later say that all who seek, find. To all who knock, the door will be opened.

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But He does not say that all can seek. For on our own, we would never seek God (Romans 3:11).

God has to miraculously cause elect people to do that (John 6:44).

bcbsr said:

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

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This was my understanding too, but I'm pretty sure I heard a sermon from JM in which he said it isn't the case. He said these concepts are something we just have to accept, knowing we will never understand them. He said it is both--God's foreknowledge and our free will--but it is NOT based on God knowing who will believe in him.

I may not have remembered it correctly though. I will need to listen to his sermon again.

"God knows beforehand what we will freely choose" - this is a logical construct..backwards.

Geralt said:

"God knows beforehand what we will freely choose" - this is a logical construct..backwards.

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