Can God be improved?

Can God every improve any part of himself?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • No

    Votes: 34 97.1%

  • Total voters
    35

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Jason0047 said:
#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
.#1 A reference to what he could do by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, the verse doesn't say that here. Jesus simply says He has His own power. In other places in Scripture: Jesus gave credit to the working of the Father and the Spirit. However, this time He is saying He has power of His own.

Jason0047 said:
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
You said:
#2 This passage is about Jesus being the representation of the Father's being. I do not recall anywhere in Scripture that the Father's Word (Father's power in this verse) comes from Jesus. Jesus is the Word.

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Hebrews 1:3).

Who purged us of our sins? Jesus. Skip back a few words and it says that He was upholding all things by the word of His power.

The word of His power.
Jesus.
He has has power.

Jason0047 said:
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
You said:
#3 This was after his glory was restored and He was with the Father. God, the Father raised Jesus from the dead: Acts 2:24, Acts 2:32, Romans 6:4, Romans 8:11, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 1 Peter 3:18

No. This would also include His resurrection from the dead. He could not ascend to the Father without first having risen from the dead. Jesus said that he would raise up the temple (His body) from the dead. He does not give credit to another for this. Granted, Scripture does say all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity were said to be involved in the resurrection.

You said:
#4 Jesus never stopped being God. He could say this in unity with the Father. / Who received eternal life before he died?

Okay. This is very serious and i am going to stop here on the list. Why? Because you are failing to grasp a basic foundational truth to Christianity. Jesus did not need to receive "eternal life." Jesus is the source of "eternal life" and salvation!!!! Jesus says He is the way the truth and the Life and no man comes unto the Father but by me (See John 14:6).

Jesus came as an example for us to follow.
We can follow him in every way he did while he was alive.

While that is true to a degree, that was not the main reason why Jesus came. The main reason why Jesus came was to pay the price for man's sins so as to offer him the free gift of salvation.

You said:
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:11-12, 1984 NIV)

Again, I believe Jesus operated power by both the Father and the Holy Spirit. But Jesus also said He had power of His own, too. It is your choice if you want to believe what He says or not.

You said:
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. (John 8:28, 1995 NASB)

As for Jesus saying He does nothing of His own initiative. That has nothing to do with His possessing His own divine attributes. This merely means that everything that He did was under the direction and will of the Father. Remember, Jesus could have prayed to the Father to ask for a ton of angels to protect Him instead of Peter having to use a sword to protect him in the Garden of Gethsemane. If the Father granted His prayer, He would have been acting in accordance with the Father's will.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Well, that is your perspective that you think I am blind;
But I do not ascribe to your reasoning, my friend.
I wrote a long post with scripture to explain my position. You argued not a single point in it, only to write an assessment "Then God ceased to be God in some way.". I do not think you blind, generically one is blind to think that the Son of God had the body of a baby in heaven. Did you say God had a physical baby's body in heaven?

I get you don't ascribe to my post, but can you read it and argue the points and scripture I referenced, as I will try to do?
The Eternal Word is one with the Father. For Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). Jesus also says, "Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?" (John 14:10). In other words, the Eternal Word ruled even by abiding in the Father (who was in Heaven). For why do you think Jesus says the Son of Man is in Heaven to Nicodemus? (See John 3:13). It's because He is one with the Father and He abides in Him (even when He was just an infant).
I don't see where you think Jesus' physical body of a baby was in heaven. With the spirit it is possible to be one with one that is not at your physical location. And your John 3:13 translation is argued, and it does not make sense. Do you think that the spiritual body of the Son of God was in heaven while he took on a physical body on earth?

So when scripture says we are one in the Church with Christ the head of it, do you think that means we have all the capabilities of God? Does that mean we are all in the same location?
Also, the Eternal Word (Who became flesh) also suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge). Why? Because it is the only conclusion that we can logically come to. On the one hand, Luke tells us how Jesus increased (or grew) in wisdom (Luke 2:52). Yet, on the other hand, Paul say that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily (Colossians 2:9). Not 30% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not 50% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not 75% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily (Meaning 100% of the Godhead dwelled within the body of the man known as Christ Jesus). For if the fulness of "deity" or if the fulness of the Eternal Logos (Which is a part of the Godhead or the Trinity) dwelled within the body of the man Jesus, then that would include all of the Eternal Word's divine attributes. So I believe Colossians 2:9 when it says the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Do you?
You contradict yourself with Jesus had all his (heavenly)/divine attributes while on earth. You say he had onmiscience but suppressed it. That is like saying you don't know something you know. Now this is different than forget, which God does not do except for forgiveness.

I don't think you have a correct understanding of the fullness of God. If you would read the context of Colossians 2 you would find a discourse on being alive in Christ through faith. If you would have at least quoted verse 10 which finishes your quoted sentence you would find that we are filled with what Jesus is full of.

Colossians 2:9 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.​

But read more of scripture to see what the fullness of God is.
John 1:16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

Ephesians 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Ephesians 3:19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,​

Please show me where scripture defines fullness as you say it does " include all of the Eternal Word's divine attributes" because all the verses in scripture don't have that meaning.

n other words, if what you say is true, then Colossians 2:9 would not be true in what it says. Well, either that or you would have to change the word "fulness" to mean something else. But I am not going to do that. I am just going to read and believe the Bible plainly in what it says.
You do have an incorrect understanding of fullness.

Read this plain scripture text.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Eternal Logos never ceased to be God, all-glorious, Almighty, ineffable, incomprehensible, unimaginable, eternal, and wonderful God.

As St. Athanasius says, "For while He Himself was in no way injured, being impassible and incorruptible and very Word and God, men who were suffering, and for whose sakes He endured all this, He maintained and preserved in His own impassibility." - On the Incarnation of the Word, 54.3

That He was made "a little lower than the angels" speaks of His mortal condition. This is not the case any longer, not because He has ceased to be true man; but because He is risen. We, likewise, in the resurrection shall be more glorious than even the angels, for indeed what does the Scripture say? "Do you not know that we are to judge angels?" (1 Corinthians 6:3) If we shall judge the angels, then to suggest that Christ, the Risen Lord, remains lower than the angels though He is, both as God and Man, greater and higher than all the angels becomes patently absurd.

He was made lower, when He partook of our mortality and corruptibility; but He is risen, glorified, and the Scripture came to pass which says, "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption." (Psalm 16:10, Acts 13:35).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I wrote a long post with scripture to explain my position. You argued not a single point in it, only to write an assessment "Then God ceased to be God in some way.". I do not think you blind, generically one is blind to think that the Son of God had the body of a baby in heaven. Did you say God had a physical baby's body in heaven?

I get you don't ascribe to my post, but can you read it and argue the points and scripture I referenced, as I will try to do?

I don't see where you think Jesus' physical body of a baby was in heaven. With the spirit it is possible to be one with one that is not at your physical location. And your John 3:13 translation is argued, and it does not make sense. Do you think that the spiritual body of the Son of God was in heaven while he took on a physical body on earth?

So when scripture says we are one in the Church with Christ the head of it, do you think that means we have all the capabilities of God? Does that mean we are all in the same location?

You contradict yourself with Jesus had all his (heavenly)/divine attributes while on earth. You say he had onmiscience but suppressed it. That is like saying you don't know something you know. Now this is different than forget, which God does not do except for forgiveness.

I don't think you have a correct understanding of the fullness of God. If you would read the context of Colossians 2 you would find a discourse on being alive in Christ through faith. If you would have at least quoted verse 10 which finishes your quoted sentence you would find that we are filled with what Jesus is full of.

Colossians 2:9 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.​

But read more of scripture to see what the fullness of God is.
John 1:16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

Ephesians 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Ephesians 3:19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,​

Please show me where scripture defines fullness as you say it does " include all of the Eternal Word's divine attributes" because all the verses in scripture don't have that meaning.


You do have an incorrect understanding of fullness.

Read this plain scripture text.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

As for Jesus being one with the Father:

When Jesus says He is one with the Father, this is talking about His spirit portion of Him that would be the Eternal Word (or Logos) and not the physical body alone. So the spirit portion of the Eternal Word was one with the Father up in Heaven. Obviously this would not be the physical body up in Heaven. Do you believe Jesus when He says He is one with the Father?

As for the Son of Man reference in John 3:13:

It's just one of the many titles or a names of who Jesus is. Surely the use of this name does not indicate that He is talking about His incarnate form. It does not mean His physical body had to be up in Heaven. Again, the verse says that the Son of Man is in Heaven. It's what the verse says. You either believe it, or you don't believe it. The choice is yours.

As for your reference of the fulness of God in Colossians 2:9:

The Bible can use the same word in different ways. In fact, the Bible even has homonyms in it. Anyways, Jesus says I and my Father are one. If they are one, then this suggests that they dwell with each other fully. Also, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon the disciples. This also suggests that He is one with the Holy Spirit, too. So if fulness does not mean fulness of deity or fulness of the Godhead or the Trinity, then what exactly does it mean?

As for Jesus being made lower than the angels:

This is in reference to his physical body only. The body is just an empty shell or temple that was filled by the Eternal Word (or Logos). God did not cease to be God by becoming a man.
 
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Sam81

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The ease with which we all debate such things...myself included.

If we could catch a glimpse, just the tiniest glimpse, of this God... any time thereafter someone brought up threads like this, we'd be relapsing into a corner peeing ourselves and shaking.
 
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Dave L

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One can be changed to a lower position and still be "perfect"/without fault.
This is what occurred in the Son of God when he became man for a little while. He did not become imperfect, he became lower than angels to become "perfect", which as I already explained means he completed God's plan of redemption for us.

Also, there are angels in heaven that are perfect but at different ranks.
Jesus caused the universe to exist as God while he wept as a man. God does not change.
 
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mindlight

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Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

God in Himself never changes. He is what He is and He will be what He will be. But clearly there have been phases in his self expression which revealed new aspects of who He was.

Before all creation He existed. There was a time when He was creative but not yet a Creator..
Before all creatures He existed. He had no need to be a Redeemer of what was not perfect before imperfection existed. He had no need to show compassion until His creatures cried out to Him for that. He had no need to demonstrate the courage of Christ on the cross before he determined to save His creatures from their own sins.
 
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The ease with which we all debate such things...myself included.

If we could catch a glimpse, just the tiniest glimpse, of this God... any time thereafter someone brought up threads like this, we'd be relapsing into a corner peeing ourselves and shaking.

I agree that we should fear God indeed. Many today do not have a reverence for Him. But truth about God is revealed in the Scriptures. Jesus said believers will worship God in spirit and in truth. So I think it is extremely important that we know every aspect of God that we are able to know (as revealed within His Word). Jesus is 100% God. I believe some may not like that idea and so they seek to make Him more like a man or human so that they can relate to Him. For the idea of the Kenosis never sat right with me. It is a concept that cripples or destroys the very unchangable nature of God and who He is. They look to the Greek (as if they really know Greek) and say that He emptied Himself of His divine attributes and or privileges. Even in some corrupted Modern Translations it says this.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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One pastor I heard explained it very well. Sermon topic, "Measuring Up." Statement, "God doesn't stand next to the wall and check to see if He measures up. God IS the wall."

He doesn't "conform" to the standard of holiness and perfection. He Himself is that standard. As such, no, He cannot be improved.

He changes the way He relates to us, because WE are imperfect and in need of improvement.
 
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joshua 1 9

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For if God existed in some future time
I think you are not ready to understand quantum physics. I had a conversation with Paul in the Bible once. The conversation lasted for 3 seconds. For 1.5 seconds he talked about one of Davids Psalms in the Old Testament to explain that. Then for 1.5 seconds he talked about what he wrote in the New Testament and how what David said applies to us today. The question I asked was David used the word Good or Goodness and Paul changed the word to Righteousness. Still this took 3 seconds. Actually it took Paul 3 seconds to get to where we had the conversation, then it took him 3 seconds to get back to where he was. Then after he was there he spend 3 seconds thinking about me because they are interested how the future generations are receiving what he wrote.

Now if I had a conversation with God, the whole conversation would have taken place in a instant. Paul is limited by the speed of light. He is still constrained by time. God does not have any limits at all. I guess this is still not adequate for you to understand, but when you are ready, you will understand.

After Paul answered my question, he had a question for me. He wanted to know why I was not living my life according to his teaching. Why was I not living a life of righteousness free from sin.
 
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joshua 1 9

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He could not have truly rested on the 7th day because He is still doing something in another point in time.
The point is He rested from the work that He was doing here on the Earth. He did not do any work here on Earth on that day. For 1,000 years. Then on the Eighth day He began a new work with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We do not know if He was off working on another universe we only know He did not do any work here on this universe that we are a part of.

God writes the book of our life before we are even born. We have to decide if we want to follow His plan for us and our life or not.
 
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I think you are not ready to understand quantum physics. I had a conversation with Paul in the Bible once. The conversation lasted for 3 seconds. For 1.5 seconds he talked about one of Davids Psalms in the Old Testament to explain that. Then for 1.5 seconds he talked about what he wrote in the New Testament and how what David said applies to us today. The question I asked was David used the word Good or Goodness and Paul changed the word to Righteousness. Still this took 3 seconds. Actually it took Paul 3 seconds to get to where we had the conversation, then it took him 3 seconds to get back to where he was. Then after he was there he spend 3 seconds thinking about me because they are interested how the future generations are receiving what he wrote.

Now if I had a conversation with God, the whole conversation would have taken place in a instant. Paul is limited by the speed of light. He is still constrained by time. God does not have any limits at all. I guess this is still not adequate for you to understand, but when you are ready, you will understand.

After Paul answered my question, he had a question for me. He wanted to know why I was not living my life according to his teaching. Why was I not living a life of righteousness free from sin.

Are you saying you literally talked with Paul?
Was this in some kind of vision?
Also, if God is outside of time in some other dimension, then if He interacts with our linear point in time (Which is like an unending line going forward), then how is He able to not be in the future time line doing something? Do you believe there is a future timeline? Or does time need to happen still for us?
Granted, I understand that God could slow things down for us. Things could be faster for Him in another dimension. But the problem is His interacting with all points in time on our timeline. It causes a contradiction in Scripture in several places.
 
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lsume

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Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.
God The Father is the same yesterday today and forever. No man can comprehend God The Father nor see Him and live. The host of Heaven most likely don’t know the true limits of God’s Absolute Power and Wisdom. It is doubtful that He has ever shown his True Power. His Wisdom and humility are attributes of His Ways. Christ walked the earth as a reflection of God’s Ways.
 
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Father and Son are One: ἓν They are on the same wavelength or the same frequency. They are the same but the Son is a lesser amount than the Father.

I see it more as rank and not ontological within the Trinity.
 
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The point is He rested from the work that He was doing here on the Earth. He did not do any work here on Earth on that day. For 1,000 years. Then on the Eighth day He began a new work with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We do not know if He was off working on another universe we only know He did not do any work here on this universe that we are a part of.

God writes the book of our life before we are even born. We have to decide if we want to follow His plan for us and our life or not.

Technically speaking He could not have truly rested if that was the case.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Being "made lower" refers to his humility, not to ontology or being.
And what do you think humility means?
God only cares for us for a little while?
Or God only died for a little while?
Or God was on earth as a man for a little while?

And his death required him to be in flesh, they go hand in hand. This is exactly what scripture says.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

The Son of God was made lower so that he could die. Yes it was humiliating for him, but he didn't come just so God could be humiliated, he came as an act of love to die for our sins.
 
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The ease with which we all debate such things...myself included.

If we could catch a glimpse, just the tiniest glimpse, of this God... any time thereafter someone brought up threads like this, we'd be relapsing into a corner peeing ourselves and shaking.
If you only realized this thread is about finding out what God is, beyond the same old same old.

As St. Athanasius says, "For while He Himself was in no way injured, being impassible and incorruptible and very Word and God, men who were suffering, and for whose sakes He endured all this, He maintained and preserved in His own impassibility." - On the Incarnation of the Word, 54.3
 
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