Regarding Salvation

Jayfrost123 · Sep 21, 2018

What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

Hazelelponi · Sep 21, 2018

HTacianas · Sep 21, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

To answer your question, yes, it is possible for a person to forfeit their salvation. The new testament is filled with warnings against "falling away" through apostasy and gross sin. Your use of "trampled on what Christ did for me" tells me that you have read some of them.

The new testament states, in plain language, that once a person falls away it is "impossible to renew them once again to repentance".

That warning was at the heart of a major rift in the Church just after the last Roman persecution. When faced with persecution (real persecution, not merely hurt feelings) many Christians, yes, "saved" Christians, denied Christ, renounced their faith, and burned incense to the image of the Roman emperor to save themselves from death or torture.

When the persecutions ended, the question left was what to do with those "lapsis" who had denied the faith. One camp had it that it is "impossible to renew them once again to repentance" as was testified to by scripture. The other side had it that they should be allowed back into the Church after a period of penance.

The penance side won out, and the Church set aside scripture in favor of mercy. Now, through the sacrament of reconciliation, if you find yourself in some predicament, you can be reconciled to the Church. Reconciliation is "the plank that rescues us from the shipwreck of faith".

singpeace · Sep 21, 2018

This is my conviction and personal belief. However, I understand others may differ in their opinions and interpretation of Scripture on this subject. I am simply including my belief here for anyone it may help in any way.

I believe it would make no sense to say that Christ paid for "all" of a person's sins (past, present, and future) so he could be saved, if ultimately a believer can, in a moment of weakness to sin, lose it all. This would mean that sin somehow has greater power than the blood Jesus shed for us.

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. Romans 8:28

If nothing... no one... not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love, then how can a believer who tries but isn't perfect, be separated from God's love?

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." John 6:36

How can Jesus lose one if according to him, He loses none?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." John 10:27-28

If we shall never perish and cannot be snatched from his hand, how is it possible for a Christian who may struggle with issues not yet perfected to have an imperfect record snatch them from His hand and perish?

Jayfrost123 · Sep 21, 2018

HTacianas said:
To answer your question, yes, it is possible for a person to forfeit their salvation. The new testament is filled with warnings against "falling away" through apostasy and gross sin. Your use of "trampled on what Christ did for me" tells me that you have read some of them.

The new testament states, in plain language, that once a person falls away it is "impossible to renew them once again to repentance".

That warning was at the heart of a major rift in the Church just after the last Roman persecution. When faced with persecution (real persecution, not merely hurt feelings) many Christians, yes, "saved" Christians, denied Christ, renounced their faith, and burned incense to the image of the Roman emperor to save themselves from death or torture.

When the persecutions ended, the question left was what to do with those "lapsis" who had denied the faith. One camp had it that it is "impossible to renew them once again to repentance" as was testified to by scripture. The other side had it that they should be allowed back into the Church after a period of penance.

The penance side won out, and the Church set aside scripture in favor of mercy. Now, through the sacrament of reconciliation, if you find yourself in some predicament, you can be reconciled to the Church. Reconciliation is "the plank that rescues us from the shipwreck of faith".

Yes I have read some of the warnings and heard people say them. This really puts fear into me because my soul desires to live in the peace, truth, love and life that Jesus Christ offers, and as someone who Christ begun a good work in me, I feel empty, dry and unsatisfied when I am living in the bondage of sin.

So is there now no hope at all?

HTacianas · Sep 21, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
Yes I have read some of the warnings and heard people say them. This really puts fear into me because my soul desires to live in the peace, truth, love and life that Jesus Christ offers, and as someone who Christ begun a good work in me, I feel empty, dry and unsatisfied when I am living in the bondage of sin.

So is there now no hope at all?

A lot of people never reach the point that you are at. What I mean by that is that most people you meet think they're "special" for some reason or another and that they can do no wrong. Those who feel the way you do, with your conviction and repentance, oftentimes end up in monasteries to atone for their sins. I'm not saying you should do that, only that some do.

But in answer to your question, I believe there is always hope. I think you should find an Orthodox Priest and tell him everything you've just told us.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Sep 22, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

1. Most(if not all) Christians deal with this very same issue either their entire lives or at least at some point in their lives. Paul himself describes this feeling of war between flesh and spirit
Romans 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2. If at any time after sinning you truly seek and ask for forgiveness then it will be given. Confess your sins unto God and he is just to forgive you(1 John 1:9-10; Psalms 32:5;James 4:8).
2 Peter 3:9
1 John 1:6-10
James 4:7-10
Revelation 3:19
So long as you have breath in your body there is hope.
Ecclesiastes 9:4
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

3. The Only way you are damned(after the hearing the truth) is by Denying the truth and calling it a lie until the day you die. You Cannot lose Salvation, but you can make it void by choosing instead to do evil for the rest of your life.
2 Peter 2:18-22
Hebrews 10:26-31
I hope this has helped. May God Bless and Guide you in all things.

St_Worm2 · Sep 22, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

Hi Jay, actually, with the ever-present help of our enemy, and the many lies and deceptions that he and his demons whisper in our ears, you can be in an otherwise great place spiritually and still be caused to think that you may not be a Christian, and/or that you never were .. e.g. 1 Peter 5:8; Ephesians 6:12.

This is but one of the reasons why you need to meditate day and night on God's word, so that you can always remember exactly what it teaches us .. cf Joshua 1:8, Psalm 1:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

This is very important as well, you need to decide ahead of time to take God at His word/always listen to Him and believe Him, no matter how you are "feeling" in the moment, and no matter what the loud and persuasive voice of the enemy is attempting to convince you of. You need to take dark and/or confusing thoughts "captive" and give them over to the Lord to deal with .. 2 Corinthians 10:5.

St. Paul tells us to test ourselves in regards to the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, and St. John tells us that all the words He wrote were to help us understand that we have nothing to fear about the age to come with God, that we can feel and know that we are secure in our faith because we are secured in it by Him .. 1 John 5:13 (the One who promised to grow us up in His Son and to see us safely through this life to Glory .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - the Lord tells us that no one can come to Him unless they are drawn by His Father first .. John 6:44, 65. He also speaks of those who are drawn and given to Him by His Father when He tells us:

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

longwait · Sep 22, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

You should be faithful to the Lord till the very end.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Mountainmanbob · Sep 22, 2018

Can one lose their salvation?
No because Jesus said that He would not lose one that the Father had given to him.

If a person could lose their salvation on one day then they could also gain it back on another and then lose it down the road again and then gain it back again.
Seems ridiculous and
one had better be careful what day they die on.
M-Bob

Tolworth John · Sep 22, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost

Only someone who is saved, wories about loosing that salvation.
So treat thoughts like the above as what they are, thoughts, not facts.
Accept that you are saved and seek to grow in your knowledge of Jesus and in your ability to serve him.

Use your fears of loosing salvation to drive you in your search for understanding of God and of the bible, theology and church history.

Read romans 12 v 1+2 and start getting, bible biased brains.

Mountainmanbob · Sep 22, 2018

Tolworth John said:
Only someone who is saved, wories about loosing that salvation.

Or possibly one who is called to Repentance?

Or one who is being called away from their father the devil?

Or one that is being called.

MB

Greg J. · Sep 22, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

If you genuinely believe Jesus is real and have accepted the He is your Lord (the one who gets to tell you want to do and what not to do), then you are saved. You do not need to know if it is possible for someone to lose their salvation if you keep him as the most important thing/person in your life—which is what will be best for you in the long-term, anyway. If you are uncertain and want to be more certain the Jesus is real, then God will grant that faith through your obedience to him (read Scripture to know the Lord better and how to please him). Trying to keep one foot in the world and one in heaven won't bring the internal peace and certainty that you are saved, which is exactly what it sounds like you want.

redleghunter · Sep 22, 2018

HTacianas said:
To answer your question, yes, it is possible for a person to forfeit their salvation. The new testament is filled with warnings against "falling away" through apostasy and gross sin. Your use of "trampled on what Christ did for me" tells me that you have read some of them.

I would be interested in your exegesis of the passages you allude to.

redleghunter · Sep 22, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Jay, actually, with the ever-present help of our enemy, and the many lies and deceptions that he and his demons whisper in our ears, you can be in an otherwise great place spiritually and still be caused to think that you may not be a Christian, and/or that you never were .. e.g. 1 Peter 5:8; Ephesians 6:12.

This is but one of the reasons why you need to meditate day and night on God's word, so that you can always remember exactly what it teaches us .. cf Joshua 1:8, Psalm 1:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

This is very important as well, you need to decide ahead of time to take God at His word/always listen to Him and believe Him, no matter how you are "feeling" in the moment, and no matter what the loud and persuasive voice of the enemy is attempting to convince you of. You need to take dark and/or confusing thoughts "captive" and give them over to the Lord to deal with .. 2 Corinthians 10:5.

St. Paul tells us to test ourselves in regards to the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, and St. John tells us that all the words He wrote were to help us understand that we have nothing to fear about the age to come with God, that we can feel and know that we are secure in our faith because we are secured in it by Him .. 1 John 5:13 (the One who promised to grow us up in His Son and to see us safely through this life to Glory .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - the Lord tells us that no one can come to Him unless they are drawn by His Father first .. John 6:44, 65. He also speaks of those who are drawn and given to Him by His Father when He tells us:

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

Excellent and most informative post.

I think what most Christians tend to struggle with is assurance. And when this arises are given over to feelings and thoughts of lost salvation.

I believe this is due to not walking in the Spirit and as such not enjoying and benefiting from the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies to Christ and as such His sure Promises aka assurance.

hedrick · Sep 22, 2018

You don't lose salvation the way you'd lose you iPhone. You don't accidentally misplace it. You don't even lose it because you sin. You lose it if you reject Jesus and his way of life. There's no reason any Christian should live in fear of losing salvation.

redleghunter · Sep 22, 2018

hedrick said:
You don't lose salvation the way you'd lose you iPhone. You don't accidentally misplace it. You don't even lose it because you sin. You lose it if you reject Jesus and his way of life. There's no reason any Christian should live in fear of losing salvation.

I think we can further define the notion of losing salvation to actually mean losing justification. I can think of no Biblical evidence to show some one loses their Justification as we are justified by the works of Christ.

FutureAndAHope · Sep 24, 2018

Jayfrost123 said:
What really gets to me and always scares me to death is when I hear people say you can lose your salvation. Not saying this or true or false, but the thought of it scares me. It makes me question my life and depending on where I am at spiritually it makes me feel destined for hell.

FYI, I have been born again and crucified with Christ and my spiritual experiences line up with the Bible. Ever since then I notice a battle inside between flesh and spirit, like a double life I'm living. Lately the flesh is dominant and I don't want to lapse deeper into the old life.

Based on my experiences, it does feel like it's based on our freedom and that God never actually forsakes us and says no. It feels like it's only us who say no, even if we don't realize it. When I repent my heart and have a realization that I forsook God, not him, and then submit my heart to the word of God, my heart softens and I become more receptive to the Holy Spirit and it's fruits in my life and I don't want to sin or have these worries anymore. While I'm in the Spirit, I know that God loves me.. he'll never forsake me, and I am living in utter peace. However when the flesh takes over I feel guilt, God hates me, fallen from grace, I have trampled on what Christ did for me, am destined to hell and all these crazy thoughts and despair.

My question is how do I deal with the occurring thought of ending up eternally lost, and if you can lose salvation, can you get it back? I sometimes struggle to swallow the idea that the almighty God who created the trillions of stars and can see the future would crucify someone to his son and then at some point would dogmatically say no to a person forcing him/her live a death sentence knowing they will end up in hell for all eternity and nothing they can do. The thing is - I don't know if this can happen or not, so if it can I just want to know. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these deep worries and it would be a blessing to hear anyone share their overcoming of this. Will there always be a chance in life to get right with God no matter what? (God forbid as excuse to sin, but in terms of is this actually true).

I would appreciate some advice. Cheers

The bible tells us that there is always a conflict between the light side of us and the dark. As we abide in Christ through prayer, and reading the bible God's Spirit strengthens us. It is not sinless perfection that saves us, but a continual abiding in Christ. A desire to follow Him. The bible says it this way "while we seek for God he will be found by us". While we have the desire to seek for salvation it is available to us. You will slip, and fall, we all do. But the question is not did you fall, but are you attempting to move on. Keep pushing forward, and you will make it.

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