Can Deborah be classified under Judges?

tampasteve · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Yes, the words may be the same, but you cannot disregard what other judges had which Deborah did not.

Actually, if a word is used to describe someone's role then that is what they are/were. The scripture says she was a Judge, perhaps you wish to disregard that and make it a different interpretation, but the scripture does not say she was something else and does not imply that.

Again, you cannot show that all the other Judges had what you claim (power, influence and people to became leaders capable of enforcing Law and protect people) because the scriptures do not tell us that about them. Most of the Judges are mentioned simply by name and length of Judgeship, we have no idea about their power or anything else outside of a name and often a lineage of some sort. Further, you cannot point to any scriptural or even Talmudic list of required qualities for being a Judge, only your fabricated list of requirements which are not supported by scripture in regards to more than one Judge.

It is quite clear that you are convinced of your misinterpretation. Throughout the other threads you made about this everyone is unified in their rebuke of this interpretation, perhaps you should re-evaluate the belief.

AbbaLove · Sep 21, 2018

Barak said to Deborah, “If you go with me, I will go. But if you do not go with me, I will not go.” Deborah said, “I will indeed go with you. But you will not gain fame on the expedition you are taking, for the Lord will turn Sisera over to a woman.”

Jael welcomed the terrified and exhausted Sisera into her tent. He asked for water, but she gave him warm milk. Jael reassured him that he was safe, and then covered him with a blanket so that he could get some needed rest. When he was deep in sleep, Jael knelt beside Sisera with a tent peg and hammer, driving the peg through his skull, killing him instantly.

When Barak arrived, Jael showed him her trophy lying dead in her tent. King Jabin was humiliated that day, but so was Barak, because the victory was really due to two women. So, the honor goes to Deborah and to Jael when it could (and should) have gone to Barak. Nevertheless, God gave the land rest for 40 years.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

Dave-W said:
OK so you admit to being a sexist.

Where was it written (chapter and verse please) that a judge had to be male?

So, if I said I am male, that amounts to being sexist? What made Jesus to pick only male apostles?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

Dave-W said:
One who judges = a judge.

That is common understanding. But Judges of the Bible were shadows of the great judges, namely, Moses and Joshua, and forerunners of kings.

1 Samuel 7:15
Now Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life.

As I have been maintaining all the time, judging is different from being a judge.

1 Samuel 8:1
And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel.

So Samuel was NOT the last judge, his sons were. He could not appoint them without being a Judge himself.

The a travesty of justice can be seen in this misdeed of Samuel that is called nepotism! Neither Samuel was a judge, though a prophet, not his sons. The aftermath of this can be clearly seen in 1 Samuel 8:3 to 22. How about saying that the Samuel was the first king with a similar logic?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

chunkofcoal said:
She was a prophetess, a mother in Israel, and a Judge. I don't have to "gather views of different people with different backgrounds" to decide about this.

One has to dig to get at the gold and silver. Superficial skimming on the surface is sycophancy that is not desirable for spiritual life.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

tampasteve said:
Actually, if a word is used to describe someone's role then that is what they are/were. The scripture says she was a Judge, perhaps you wish to disregard that and make it a different interpretation, but the scripture does not say she was something else and does not imply that.

Scripture has never said that she was a judge. It only says she was judging. That is different thing altogether. Right now I am judging the Zionist Israel. That doesn't make me a judge of the book of Judges!

Again, you cannot show that all the other Judges had what you claim (power, influence and people to became leaders capable of enforcing Law and protect people) because the scriptures do not tell us that about them. Most of the Judges are mentioned simply by name and length of Judgeship, we have no idea about their power or anything else outside of a name and often a lineage of some sort. Further, you cannot point to any scriptural or even Talmudic list of required qualities for being a Judge, only your fabricated list of requirements which are not supported by scripture in regards to more than one Judge.

If you read the related verses, you will see in many cases their influence with military or people. Only men had the ability to enforce the Law and protect people.

It is quite clear that you are convinced of your misinterpretation. Throughout the other threads you made about this everyone is unified in their rebuke of this interpretation, perhaps you should re-evaluate the belief.

No, the Holy Spirit guides into all truth. Laxity and liberality are deviating us from the truth.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Barak said to Deborah, “If you go with me, I will go. But if you do not go with me, I will not go.” Deborah said, “I will indeed go with you. But you will not gain fame on the expedition you are taking, for the Lord will turn Sisera over to a woman.”

Jael welcomed the terrified and exhausted Sisera into her tent. He asked for water, but she gave him warm milk. Jael reassured him that he was safe, and then covered him with a blanket so that he could get some needed rest. When he was deep in sleep, Jael knelt beside Sisera with a tent peg and hammer, driving the peg through his skull, killing him instantly.

When Barak arrived, Jael showed him her trophy lying dead in her tent. King Jabin was humiliated that day, but so was Barak, because the victory was really due to two women. So, the honor goes to Deborah and to Jael when it could (and should) have gone to Barak. Nevertheless, God gave the land rest for 40 years.

Please quote the verse no. in the Bible to support your comment (made bold and underlined)

Dave-W · Sep 22, 2018

Righttruth said:
So, if I said I am male, that amounts to being sexist? What made Jesus to pick only male apostles?

His first 12, yes, were all male. But at the end of Romans Paul refers to a female apostle Junia. I know that many many translations and even some of the later manuscripts put the name as Junias, which is masculine; but the oldest manuscripts have it as Junia which is feminine.

tampasteve · Sep 22, 2018

Righttruth said:
Scripture has never said that she was a judge. It only says she was judging.

No, it doesn't. The English does, but the Hebrew does not.

If you read the related verses, you will see in many cases their influence with military or people. Only men had the ability to enforce the Law and protect people.

In some cases yes, in most cases no. I have stated this several times now. In most cases it simply lists the Judge and time.

No, the Holy Spirit guides into all truth. Laxity and liberality are deviating us from the truth.

The statement is true, but not for what you are trying to teach.

You have started with a conclusion and are trying to make scripture match it. It just does not work with this exame you have created.

A_Thinker · Sep 22, 2018

Righttruth said:
Judges 4: 4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.
5 She would sit under the Date Palm Tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the Ephraimite hill country. The Israelites would come up to her to have their disputes settled.[New English Translation]

So ... you prefer a translation which says that Deborah was leading Israel. Most translations either use the word "judging" or the word "leading". Most Bible commentators interpret the position as being one and the same.

Which do you prefer ?

That Deborah was "leading" Israel ... or that she was "judging" Israel ?

bekkilyn · Sep 22, 2018

This is a pretty ridiculous thread overall. I do have to wonder why some people are so eager to practically do anything to glorify and take joy in sexism and bigotry rather than God.

Righttruth · Sep 22, 2018

Dave-W said:
His first 12, yes, were all male. But at the end of Romans Paul refers to a female apostle Junia. I know that many many translations and even some of the later manuscripts put the name as Junias, which is masculine; but the oldest manuscripts have it as Junia which is feminine.

There cannot be more than 12 chosen apostles. This is the verse:
Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Whether Junias/Junia or Andronicus, kinsmen and fellow prisoners, Paul simply saying that they were well recognized for their outstanding work by the apostles when in group together, not that they were apostles themselves!

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 22, 2018

Righttruth said:
Deborah was a prophetess. She claims to be a mother in Israel.

I think scripture is quite clear Deborah was a judge.

Judges 5:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

I think I understand your concern; that some feminists illogically use the fact Deborah was a judge to justify females taking church positions prohibited in scripture for their gender (e.g. female pastors for men).

However, the scripture makes special reference to Deborah's husband (i.e. she was in submission to him), and the pains God takes to ensure that it was a man - Barak - who went to battle and led the Israelite men. It would have been far easier to make Deborah the leader, but this would have been improper and set the wrong precedent, both for a woman to lead men and for a woman to go to battle.

As it was, Barak's insistence that Deborah accompany him to battle resulted in the glory of the victory going to a woman.

It can sometimes be easy for men to think God doesn't use women for many things because they are women, but I don't think God works like that. It's true that several church positions are prohibited for women, and I don't believe God goes against His own scripture, but in many cases - such as judging - I think saying women were or are prohibited from this is going too far.

AbbaLove · Sep 22, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
I think scripture is quite clear Deborah was a judge.
As it was, Barak's insistence that Deborah accompany him to battle resulted in the glory of the victory going to a woman.

The true Glory goes to thee true Judge being Yahweh. Both women (Deborah and Jael) being compelled by God. If there was any fame to be garnered it went to Deborah and Jael, not to Barak.

Of the six major "judges" Deborah is possibly more of a "judge" being that she was a prophetess of Yahweh. The other "judges" were more like tribal chieftains who were led/empowered by Yahweh, the supreme Judge over both Israel and the Canaanites.

Instead of Israel being content with Yahweh as their supreme Judge and His co-judges they wanted to have an imperfect king like their surrounding enemies.

Bottomline: He (Rt) seemingly just wants to find fault with the Tanakh (IMO, a non-denominational reformed Baptist who thinks his interpretation is the only right truth). It's obvious by now he just wants to point out his doctrinal bias toward a woman being a "judge" even though Deborah was chosen by Yahweh to be one of Israel's so-called "judges". And Israel rested in peace for 40 years thanks to Deborah being chosen by Yahweh.

Righttruth · Sep 22, 2018

tampasteve said:
No, it doesn't. The English does, but the Hebrew does not.

OK. A judging person may be considered as a judge. But that does not match the requirements of judges of the book in that period.

In some cases yes, in most cases no. I have stated this several times now. In most cases it simply lists the Judge and time.

Yet they were all men capable of doing the work of protection.

You have started with a conclusion and are trying to make scripture match it. It just does not work with this exame you have created.

'exame' means?

Righttruth · Sep 22, 2018

A_Thinker said:
So ... you prefer a translation which says that Deborah was leading Israel. Most translations either use the word "judging" or the word "leading". Most Bible commentators interpret the position as being one and the same.

Which do you prefer ?

That Deborah was "leading" Israel ... or that she was "judging" Israel ?

Either way it would not make a full fledged judge with all the expectations go with it for that period.

Righttruth · Sep 22, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
I think scripture is quite clear Deborah was a judge.

Judges 5:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

I think I understand your concern; that some feminists illogically use the fact Deborah was a judge to justify females taking church positions prohibited in scripture for their gender (e.g. female pastors for men).

However, the scripture makes special reference to Deborah's husband (i.e. she was in submission to him), and the pains God takes to ensure that it was a man - Barak - who went to battle and led the Israelite men. It would have been far easier to make Deborah the leader, but this would have been improper and set the wrong precedent, both for a woman to lead men and for a woman to go to battle.

As it was, Barak's insistence that Deborah accompany him to battle resulted in the glory of the victory going to a woman.

It can sometimes be easy for men to think God doesn't use women for many things because they are women, but I don't think God works like that. It's true that several church positions are prohibited for women, and I don't believe God goes against His own scripture, but in many cases - such as judging - I think saying women were or are prohibited from this is going too far.

You have good points. Yes, Deborah could be called a judge since it is indicated that she was judging. But requirements and expectations from the judges of that period demanded something that Deborah could not have met. Hence, Barak was brought in. He qualified for the post of a judge.

Righttruth · Sep 22, 2018

AbbaLove said:
The true Glory goes to thee true Judge being Yahweh. Both women (Deborah and Jael) being compelled by God. If there was any fame to be garnered it went to Deborah and Jael, not to Barak.

It was not the question of fame. It was the execution part that led to the final result.

Of the six major "judges" Deborah is possibly more of a "judge" being that she was a prophetess of Yahweh. The other "judges" were more like tribal chieftains who were led/empowered by Yahweh, the supreme Judge over both Israel and the Canaanites.

Prophetess are normally set apart freed from the involvement in battles. They are chosen to speak for God normally.

Bottomline:

Click to expand...

He (Rt) seemingly just wants to find fault with the Tanakh (IMO, a non-denominational reformed Baptist who thinks his interpretation is the only right truth). It's obvious by now he just wants to point out his doctrinal bias toward a woman being a "judge" even though Deborah was chosen by Yahweh to be one of Israel's so-called "judges". And Israel rested in peace for 40 years thanks to Deborah being chosen by Yahweh.

Damage and distortions are being created by liberal and feminist movement that should be put to check with proper understanding of the context in the Bible. Deborah was judging in that sense she can be called a judge, not according the expectations of judges during that period.

tampasteve · Sep 22, 2018

This circular argument is ridiculous not not worth my time any longer. BTW, do you consider yourself a follower of Messianic Judaism in any way?

Dave-W · Sep 22, 2018

Righttruth said:
There cannot be more than 12 chosen apostles. This is the verse:

This is going OFF TOPIC, but Paul, Barnabas and James the Just are all listed as apostles and none are part of the 12.

Get over your tight reigns on who was what.

Samuel and Deborah were both Judges.
Barnabas and Junia were both apostles.

Can Deborah be classified under Judges?

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