Can God be improved?

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 21, 2018

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

Call me Nic · Sep 21, 2018

OldWiseGuy · Sep 21, 2018

God encompasses every level of quality as revealed by his creation. However he has not yet revealed the finished product.

Dave L · Sep 21, 2018

Any change in God would be to imperfection.

ToBeLoved · Sep 21, 2018

AnticipateHisComing said:
Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

I don’t think those two verses referencing Jesus death and talking about perfect are about in his death he was made perfect.

Jesus had to be sin free during His earthly life, so Jesus had not not lived (past tense) a perfect life of no sin until His last breath.

He was always perfect, but until His life was over, His entire life could not be evaluated.

After His death, His life was a past event and could be evaluated in its entirety.

That is what I believe the two verses in Romans are talking about. The entirety of His life as a human being, Jesus, being perfect, at His time of death.

As Jesus said before He died, “It is finished”.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

AnticipateHisComing said:
Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God every improve any part of himself, I say no.

Jesus is the Eternal Logos or Word (Second person of the Godhead or the Trinity) (John 1:1) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was suppressed.

This was the glory that Jesus once shared with God the Father before the world came into existence.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5).

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Jesus was able to learn because His Omniscience was suppressed so as to be like a man.

"Although He was a Son [who had never been disobedient to the Father], He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) (AMP).

So what about Jesus being made perfect?

"And because his obedience was perfect [or having achieved perfection], he was able to give [became the source/means of] eternal salvation to all who obey him." (Hebrews 5:9) (EXB).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9) (KJV).

Jesus was being made perfect in obedience (through suffering) as a man. He was a man in the sense that he had a flesh and blood body of a man and He was limited in knowledge because His Omniscience in being God was suppressed.

In other words, because limitations were placed upon the Holy Son of God, He was then able to be be made perfect. The Eternal Logos is always perfect, but in the context of Him being a man (the Word made flesh), He was then able to be perfect as a man and obey through suffering God the Father. So no. The word "perfect" here still means "perfect."

As for Hebrews 7:28:
The word "perfect" is not used in the KJV.
The word "consecrated" is used instead.

ToBeLoved · Sep 21, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Jesus is the Eternal Logos or Word (Second person of the Godhead or the Trinity) (John 1:1) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was suppressed.

This was the glory that Jesus once shared with God the Father before the world came into existence.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5).

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Jesus was able to learn because His Omniscience was suppressed so as to be like a man.

"Although He was a Son [who had never been disobedient to the Father], He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) (AMP).

So what about Jesus being made perfect?

"And because his obedience was perfect [or having achieved perfection], he was able to give [became the source/means of] eternal salvation to all who obey him." (Hebrews 5:9) (EXB).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9) (KJV).

Jesus was being made perfect in obedience (through suffering) as a man. He was a man in the sense that he had a flesh and blood body of a man and He was limited in knowledge because His Omniscience in being God was suppressed.

In other words, because limitations were placed upon the Holy Son of God, He was then able to be be made perfect. The Eternal Logos is always perfect, but in the context of Him being a man (the Word made flesh), He was then able to be perfect as a man and obey through suffering God the Father. So no. The word "perfect" here still means "perfect."

As for Hebrews 7:28:
The word "perfect" is not used in the KJV.
The word "consecrated" is used instead.

What verses show that Jesus Omniscience was suppressed?

Just because He had all knowledge He still had flesh and temptation to deal with and overcome

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
What verses show that Jesus Omniscience was suppressed?

I believe Jesus suppressed His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things) in order to be a type of Adam so as to be a substitute for our sins. However, to say that Jesus was stripped of this power would mean He is no longer God. For to be less than God means one is no longer God. Jesus was 100% fully God who simply took on a temple or empty shell of a body. In fact, Jesus referred to his body as a temple.

The Word was made flesh.
The Word did not cease to be the Word in the fact that the Word is fully and 100% God.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

Before the cross, the disciples said to Jesus,
"Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God." (John 16:30).

Greg J. · Sep 21, 2018

AnticipateHisComing said:
Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God every improve any part of himself, I say no.

Your question is a path to trying to understand something, but that something is probably not what you think. Accept that God has always existed in perfection and was never different than he is now, and then figure out what you are trying to understand. If you do not understand what those things mean, then figure them out rather than ask a question that requires you understand and have accepted what they mean.

To me, the examination is not unlike asking how long the wheels will last on a parachute.

joshua 1 9 · Sep 21, 2018

AnticipateHisComing said:
Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

God can not change and He is outside of time. He is what science calls a singularity.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
What verses show that Jesus Omniscience was suppressed?

On the one hand, we know Jesus increased or grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
Yet, on the other hand, we also know that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within the body of Christ.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

The word "Godhead" is in reference to the Trinity. I know others believe it is in reference to deity. Either way, it makes the same point that Jesus is fully and 100% God in every respect and way. The fulness of deity or the Godhead was in the man Christ Jesus. This means He fully had the power of God because the fulness of God was in Him. So the only logical conclusion that we are led to believe is that the Eternal Word (the Logos) suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience during His Earthly life.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

joshua 1 9 said:
God can not change and He is outside of time. He is what science calls a singularity.

I do not believe God is outside of time with God living simultaneously living in the past, present, and future at the same time. I used to believe that way because of my past love for Time Travel films, etc. But I have come to realize that such things are in fact science fiction and not reality.

For if God existed in some future time line somewhere, then He could not have truly rested on the 7th day because He is still doing something in another point in time. Also, Jesus sacrificed offered one sacrifice for sins forever, and sat down on the right hand of God (See Hebrews 10:12). If Jesus (Who is God) lives simultaneously in the past, present, and future, then He would have to continually keep offering Himself over and over and over and over again for our sins. In other words, God is not a slave to time. Time happens once and it is then gone.

Side Note:

Please understand that I believe God is aware of the future with pin point accuracy. He knows everything. God is Omniscient. God does not need to live in the future in order to know about that future.

Greg J. · Sep 21, 2018

God designed and created time, which is why people say he is outside time. But what that really means I do not believe anyone can understand.

The point in time when Jesus chose to "suppress his deity" was when he was conceived on earth. While in human form his connection to God was through the Holy Spirit, with the exact same mechanism as we are connected to God (through faith). He was born with God's nature and taught by God through his life and grew up to be like his Father (like he was originally), completely submitted to the will of the Father.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 21, 2018

Greg J. said:
God designed and created time, which is why people say he is outside time. But what that really means I do not believe anyone can understand.

The point in time when Jesus chose to "suppress his deity" was when he was conceived on earth. While in human form his connection to God was through the Holy Spirit, with the exact same mechanism as we are connected to God (through faith). He was born with God's nature and taught by God through his life and grew up to be like his Father (like he was originally), completely submitted to the will of the Father.

Well, I believe Jesus only suppressed His divine attribute of "having all knowledge" or His "Omniscience" (Which took place sometime before the world came into being). This is what I believe the "glory" that Jesus spoke of that He wished to share in again with the Father before the world existed in John 17:5. For Habakkuk 2:14 says, "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Also see 2 Corinthians 4:6.

Anyways, while I believe Jesus did works by the Father and the Holy Spirit, I also believe....

Jesus had power as God
(during His Earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 21, 2018

Dave L said:
Any change in God would be to imperfection.

One can be changed to a lower position and still be "perfect"/without fault.
This is what occurred in the Son of God when he became man for a little while. He did not become imperfect, he became lower than angels to become "perfect", which as I already explained means he completed God's plan of redemption for us.

Also, there are angels in heaven that are perfect but at different ranks.

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 21, 2018

Greg J. said:
Your question is a path to trying to understand something, but that something is probably not what you think. Accept that God has always existed in perfection and was never different than he is now, and then figure out what you are trying to understand. If you do not understand what those things mean, then figure them out rather than ask a question that requires you understand and have accepted what they mean.

You say my question is a path to trying to understand something. This means you don't have a clue what my question is. It certainly is not the simple OP question, to which I answered in the OP as you just did.

I have no clue where you animus is from. I can only guess you were too lazy to read the OP and just responded to the OP question.

Greg J. · Sep 21, 2018

Jason0047 said:
#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. (John 3:34, 1984 NIV)

But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Matthew 12:28, 1984 NIV) The same sentiment is in Luke 11:20.

The woman subject to bleeding for 12 years was healed without Jesus intending it. (Luke 8:46)

So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. (John 8:28, 1995 NASB)

#1 A reference to what he could do by the power of the Holy Spirit.
#2 This passage is about Jesus being the representation of the Father's being. I do not recall anywhere in Scripture that the Father's Word (Father's power in this verse) comes from Jesus. Jesus is the Word.
#3 This was after his glory was restored and He was with the Father. God, the Father raised Jesus from the dead: Acts 2:24, Acts 2:32, Romans 6:4, Romans 8:11, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 1 Peter 3:18
#4 Jesus never stopped being God. He could say this in unity with the Father. / Who received eternal life before he died?
#5 Not while he was alive.
#6 Jesus was not omnipresent so must have been referring to Himself through the Father or the Holy Spirit.
#7, #8 Nothing here indicates it was Jesus' own power. They could have just as well been things revealed through his unity with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus came as an example for us to follow.

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1, 1984 NIV)

We can follow him in every way he did while he was alive.

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:11-12, 1984 NIV)

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 21, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
What verses show that Jesus Omniscience was suppressed?

Jason0047 said:
On the one hand, we know Jesus increased or grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
Yet, on the other hand, we also know that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within the body of Christ.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

The word "Godhead" is in reference to the Trinity. I know others believe it is in reference to deity. Either way, it makes the same point that Jesus is fully and 100% God in every respect and way. The fulness of deity or the Godhead was in the man Christ Jesus. This means He fully had the power of God because the fulness of God was in Him. So the only logical conclusion that we are led to believe is that the Eternal Word (the Logos) suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience during His Earthly life.

Jason0047 said:
I believe Jesus suppressed His divine power of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things) in order to be a type of Adam so as to be a substitute for our sins. However, to say that Jesus was stripped of this power would mean He is no longer God. For to be less than God means one is no longer God. Jesus was 100% fully God who simply took on a temple or empty shell of a body. In fact, Jesus referred to his body as a temple.

The Word was made flesh.
The Word did not cease to be the Word in the fact that the Word is fully and 100% God.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil

I don't think it is that difficult to figure out what aspect of the Son of God changed when he came as man. Read the scripture. It explicitly mentions two things.

1) Made lower, than the angels. His glory was later restored when he returned to heaven.
I think this is the most drastic measure of Jesus' being humbled to a man. At other times in the OT, the Son of God appeared to men and demanded reverence. Not once did Jesus demand reverence and it was only given to him at birth, Mary's anointing, and once after his resurrection, but he rebuked it until his ascension.

2) Made in the flesh. This means his spirit form changed to physical. That means omnipresence goes out the door. It means he was on earth and not in heaven.

While you are arguing about Omniscience, it may have happened at birth, but I believe he got it back. He spoke as one with authority/author/Word. Of course he knows scripture. He could read peoples thoughts. He knew the past and future. He was compared to King Solomon the wisest/smartest man to ever live and deemed greater.

About not having omnipresence and being in heaven, I think this is a clue with the appearance of Moses and Elijah at Jesus' transfiguration. If the point of the transfiguration was just to show Jesus in his greater glory, then why would Moses and Elijah be present? I think Jesus communication with the angels/heavenly access was limited. Jesus is the commander of the angels and I think Moses and Elijah filled in when he was on earth.

Greg J. · Sep 21, 2018

AnticipateHisComing said:
You say my question is a path to trying to understand something. This means you don't have a clue what my question is. It certainly is not the simple OP question, to which I answered in the OP as you just did.

I have no clue where you animus is from. I can only guess you were too lazy to read the OP and just responded to the OP question.

Sorry my post did not have much detail. (I'm not sure this post any better.)

To ask if God can change himself requires imagining a God who can be different than He is, regardless of whether He can change Himself or not. Which means you are asking a question about a being that doesn't exist, because our real God's nature can't be any different than it is. Change is something that can only happen through the passage of time, but God was who He was/is before time began.

Can God be improved?

Can God every improve any part of himself?

Yes

No

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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