Can Deborah be classified under Judges?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

A_Thinker said:
As has been mentioned ... ALL of the faithful of God are not included here. This listing is not meant to be all-encompassing.

True. One cannot ignore when something special is noticed.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Deborah's position regarding the battle was that of prophet (i.e. spoke-person for God). Barak followed her direction ...

That is my thinking. So she never occupied the position of a judge.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

tampasteve said:
Yes, she was a Judge. The way I see it:

1. The scripture tells us she was a Judge.
2. Hebrews does not mention all the Judges (not even close to all of them) so cannot be used to show she was not.
3. Perhaps it does not agree with your idea of what a Judge was, but the scripture is clear.

I really do not know how this is up for debate, the scripture is quite clear:

Judges 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Judges 4:4-5 (YLT)
4 And Deborah, a woman inspired, wife of Lapidoth, she is judging Israel at that time,

5 and she is dwelling under the palm-tree of Deborah, between Ramah and Beth-El, in the hill-country of Ephraim, and the sons of Israel go up unto her for judgment.

Judging is different from being a judge. We need to make righteous judgement. You know, Jesus cautions against judgement.

A_Thinker · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
That is my thinking. So she never occupied the position of a judge

You contradict the scriptures, .which state that she was a judge in Israel ...

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

A_Thinker said:
You contradict the scriptures, .which state that she was a judge in Israel ...

Please read the scripture. She was judging, not being a judge.

tampasteve · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Judging is different from being a judge. We need to make righteous judgement. You know, Jesus cautions against judgement.

Righttruth said:
Please read the scripture. She was judging, not being a judge.

The language is the same throughout the book of Judges; a Judge is a Judge. If there is another example of someone in Judges being mentioned as a "Judge" or Judging in the manner you mention I am not familiar with it. Here are a few examples:

Judges 10:2 (Isreal Tola)
2. And he judged Israel twenty and three years, and died, and was buried in Shamir.

Judges 12:7 (Jephthah)
7. And Jephthah judged Israel six years.

Judges 12:8-9 (Ibzan)
8 And after him Ibzan of Bethlehem judged Israel.
9 And he had thirty sons, and thirty daughters, whom he sent abroad, and took in thirty daughters from abroad for his sons. And he judged Israel seven years.

Judges 12:11 (Elon)
11 And after him Elon, a Zebulonite, judged Israel; and he judged Israel ten years.

Judges 12:13-14 (Abdon)
13 And after him Abdon the son of Hillel, a Pirathonite, judged Israel.
14 And he had forty sons and thirty nephews, that rode on threescore and ten ass colts: and he judged Israel eight years.

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

tampasteve said:
The language is the same throughout the book of Judges; a Judge is a Judge. If there is another example of someone in Judges being mentioned as a "Judge" or Judging in the manner you mention I am not familiar with it. Here are a few examples:

Judges 10:2 (Isreal Tola)
2. And he judged Israel twenty and three years, and died, and was buried in Shamir.

Judges 12:7 (Jephthah)
7. And Jephthah judged Israel six years.

Judges 12:8-9 (Ibzan)
8 And after him Ibzan of Bethlehem judged Israel.
9 And he had thirty sons, and thirty daughters, whom he sent abroad, and took in thirty daughters from abroad for his sons. And he judged Israel seven years.

Judges 12:11 (Elon)
11 And after him Elon, a Zebulonite, judged Israel; and he judged Israel ten years.

Judges 12:13-14 (Abdon)
13 And after him Abdon the son of Hillel, a Pirathonite, judged Israel.
14 And he had forty sons and thirty nephews, that rode on threescore and ten ass colts: and he judged Israel eight years.

Yes, I am aware of that. Notice they had power, influence and people to became leaders capable of enforcing Law and protect people.

chunkofcoal · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Judging is different from being a judge. We need to make righteous judgement. You know, Jesus cautions against judgement.

You have this same debate going in three different forums so what is your point?

Are you judging a judge, whom God set over Israel, to be unworthy to be called a judge?

Yes, we are to make righteous judgement - God set Deborah over Israel, as a judge, so she was a judge.

tampasteve · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Judges 4: 4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.
5 She would sit under the Date Palm Tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the Ephraimite hill country. The Israelites would come up to her to have their disputes settled.[New English Translation]

That translation is not accurate. The word used is שָׁפַט and it is the same in 4:4 and the other verses I mentioned. Translating it as "disputes settled" is not wrong per-se, but it is incorrect use for what you are trying to prove. The Hebrew is the same in the verses in relation to the other Judges and to Deborah.

Righttruth said:
Yes, I am aware of that. Notice they had power, influence and people to became leaders capable of enforcing Law and protect people.

That is not stated for most of the Judges, just who they were and how long they judged. However, even if it were it is still clear that Deborah had the ability to influence Barak to come and lead the people as a military general and even in your own statement you are saying that she was enforcing the Law.

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Judge was supposed to lead an army or a group of people to suppress or eliminate enemies of Israel.

Really?

Did Samuel do that? He was the last judge.

IMO you are promoting a false standard.
If the text says she judged Israel, then she was a judge. PERIOD.

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Yes, I am aware of that. Notice they had power, influence and people to became leaders capable of enforcing Law and protect people.

And Deborah did NOT? Why ?
Because she was a woman?

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2018

chunkofcoal said:
Are you judging a judge, whom God set over Israel, to be unworthy to be called a judge?

I believe he thinks she is disqualified.

chunkofcoal · Sep 21, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Deborah's position regarding the battle was that of prophet (i.e. spoke-person for God). Barak followed her direction ...

One could say that Barak followed her direction like troops follow the direction of their General.
Jdg 4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

chunkofcoal said:
You have this same debate going in three different forums so what is your point?

Are you judging a judge, whom God set over Israel, to be unworthy to be called a judge?

Yes, we are to make righteous judgement - God set Deborah over Israel, as a judge, so she was a judge.

Before coming to an important conclusion, it is necessary to gather views of different people with different background. She was a prophetess and claimed to be a mother in Israel. Do you want to question her claim? Judging is different from being a judge! Have studied the qualifications for a judge?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

tampasteve said:
That translation is not accurate. The word used is שָׁפַט and it is the same in 4:4 and the other verses I mentioned. Translating it as "disputes settled" is not wrong per-se, but it is incorrect use for what you are trying to prove. The Hebrew is the same in the verses in relation to the other Judges and to Deborah.

Yes, the words may be the same, but you cannot disregard what other judges had which Deborah did not.

That is not stated for most of the Judges, just who they were and how long they judged. However, even if it were it is still clear that Deborah had the ability to influence Barak to come and lead the people as a military general and even in your own statement you are saying that she was enforcing the Law.

Influencing is different from enforcing. Why was that she herself could not lead? Why did she agree to the condition of Barak for her presence?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

Dave-W said:
Really?

Did Samuel do that? He was the last judge.

No, and he was not a judge. He was prophet like Deborah.

IMO you are promoting a false standard.
If the text says she judged Israel, then she was a judge. PERIOD.

Yes, she judged. Where does it say that she was a judge?

Righttruth · Sep 21, 2018

Dave-W said:
And Deborah did NOT? Why ?
Because she was a woman?

Precisely!

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Yes, she judged. Where does it say that she was a judge?

One who judges = a judge.

Righttruth said:
No, and he was not a judge. He was prophet like Deborah.

1 Samuel 7:15
Now Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life.

1 Samuel 8:1
And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel.

So Samuel was NOT the last judge, his sons were. He could not appoint them without being a Judge himself.

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Precisely!

OK so you admit to being a sexist.

Where was it written (chapter and verse please) that a judge had to be male?

chunkofcoal · Sep 21, 2018

Righttruth said:
Before coming to an important conclusion, it is necessary to gather views of different people with different background. She was a prophetess and claimed to be a mother in Israel. Do you want to question her claim? Judging is different from being a judge! Have studied the qualifications for a judge?

She was a prophetess, a mother in Israel, and a Judge. I don't have to "gather views of different people with different backgrounds" to decide about this.

Can Deborah be classified under Judges?

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