Has Muslim Theology influenced Iconoclasm?

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you really believe nothing can be considered sacred? If so, then I hardly see how that attitude is human, much less Christian.
I didn’t say that. I said nothing made with hands. That is what a Christian believes.
I agree with truefiction1 that what we do with our bodies can reflect what we feel in our hearts. I also agreed with the 19th century Danish bishop, Nikolai Grundtvig, that to be a Christian is to be a human first.
The body might oright not reflect the attitude. And all humans are humans first do that’s not saying anything at all.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The truth is the Catholic church outlawed having Bibles and subsittuted images not for instruction but for indoctrination. Have you been to the catherdrals of Europe? ENdless drawings of a strong Mary and a weak Jesus. It is a female worshipping faith. Jesus is almost always a helpless baby, or helpless on the cross or dead (also helpless.) Mary is always standing their strong and taking care of Jesus. Nothing about moral goodness or the teachings of the real Jesus. The Bible was not available because people could not read. It was not available because the Catholics forbid it to stay in power.
This is a clever theory, but has no basis in the actual history of the Church. Even a cursory reading of the early Church fathers and an elementary knowledge of the nature of worship (Liturgy) in the early Church will very easily dismiss such a theory as something simply imagined. And if Mary is so strong and Jesus so weak, like you claim, then why does Mary gesture towards her son (as in the icon that is my avatar on the left) with her right hand, to indicate that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, rather than herself?

What I find to be really unfortunate is the manner in which you perceive Christ on the cross -- as helpless and/or dead. This could not be further from God revealed Truth. Because it is precisely in that hour of His being sacrificed on the cross that Christ God is most greatly glorified in our hearts, because He chose to suffer and die on the cross, for our sake and in His unfathomable Love for us. Nobody had the power to take His Life from Him. He has the power to lay down His human Life, and to take it back up again, because He is the Word of God and the author of all created life itself. His death triumphs over the power of evil, because in it lies buried the seed of His Resurrection, and the promise of the impending resurrection to Eternal Life for all who believe in Him.

"... we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles". (1 Corinthians 1:23)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Like what? And you interpret the words of Solomon to mean veneration but that is really repugnant to the Jews. Respect? Yes. Worship and veneration? No. They worshipped a God not made with hands.
Respect is veneration, to venerate means to treat something with great respect. If Solomon bowed his head to face the house of God that’s veneration.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Where do you get that idea? From the catholics who worship Mary?
No ma'am, its not an idea gotten from Roman Catholics. Its what I know from experience in the Life of the Orthodox faith, because of certain, personally undeniable encounters I've had with God which are associated with a particular icon that was originally written by the Evangelist Luke. This icon is of the miraculous myrrh streaming kind. And real Catholics don't worship the Theotokos. They venerate her, and there is a huge difference between the veneration of those who Love God and the worship of the Only God. Ours is always the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not a gospel of Mary.

You don’t know that. Might not be.
I know it to be true from experience, as has been revealed to me, and to us, in the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I disagree. Veneration is not the same as respect. They did not have reverence for the space nor venerate it. You cannot venerate what you cannot ever see. This is not the faith that Moses taught. He would not have done so, having been one who talked to God face to face. The woman at the well talking to Jesus tried to get him to discuss where (as is which space) is the correct place to worship God. He responded that her thinking was wrong. The true worshippers worship in spirit and truth, not facing or in the right physical place. The whole idea is not what Moses taught nor what God wants.

The faith given by Moses would not have included facing a particular direction nor even facing the ark of the covenant. The holy of holies what were God's presence came when the first temple was finished. Did not seem to stay there judging by what happened to the ark over time.
We know from experience that a space can be venerated. It is a common aspect of Orthodox Christian Liturgical piety, and it is modeled upon the Liturgical piety that was practiced by pious Jews. Moses talked to God "face to face", but he climbed to the top of Mount Horeb and God spoke to Him from within a bush that was burning but not being consumed by the fire:
"And He (God) said: 'Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.'
Moreover He said: 'I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:5-6) ... "ye shall serve God upon this mountain." (Exodus 3:12).

The woman at the well is St. Photini. She is an Orthodox Christian who is taught by the Holy Spirit to worship in spirit and in Truth. We are not Jews who worshiped only in the temple in Jerusalem. We are of those times that Christ said were coming where God is worshiped everywhere, in spirit and in Truth, because the Holy Spirit of God is everywhere. But the worship of God in spirit and in Truth is happening inside of buildings called "churches", wherein there tends to be multitudes of various sensory/physical aspects to this true worship, because we must also use our physical senses to enter into the knowledge of God in the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Or the people who decide to follow the word of God seek Him elsewhere. Good times.
You mean like the Evangelicals who do rock concerts in Church and believe in that version Holy Spirit which they turned into something like Simon the magician would love.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I disagree. Veneration is not the same as respect. They did not have reverence for the space nor venerate it. You cannot venerate what you cannot ever see. This is not the faith that Moses taught. He would not have done so, having been one who talked to God face to face. The woman at the well talking to Jesus tried to get him to discuss where (as is which space) is the correct place to worship God. He responded that her thinking was wrong. The true worshippers worship in spirit and truth, not facing or in the right physical place. The whole idea is not what Moses taught nor what God wants.

The faith given by Moses would not have included facing a particular direction nor even facing the ark of the covenant. The holy of holies what were God's presence came when the first temple was finished. Did not seem to stay there judging by what happened to the ark over time.
The online definition of veneration:

great respect; reverence.

You assume the faith of Moses didn’t teach that Jews are to face the Temple and the Holy of Holies in prayer. There’s proof in both the Tanakh and Jewish oak law that Jews should face the Temple in prayer. Even today Jews all over the world face the western wall and the remains of the Temple in Jerusalem. Jews did have venerable for the Holy of Holies which is why it had a veil covering it and the high priest could only see it once a year.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Usually fixes itself. Those who think "veneration" means "worship" drift away from the Church and find religions that are more suitable for them.

Or the people who decide to follow the word of God seek Him elsewhere. Good times.
You mean like the Evangelicals who do rock concerts in Church and believe in that version Holy Spirit which they turned into something like Simon the magician would love.
Sure, because if scripture is clear on anything it’s that God wants us to pray to buildings, paintings, stained glass windows, statues, and golden calfs. :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sure, because if scripture is clear on anything it’s that God wants us to pray to buildings, paintings, stained glass windows, statues, and golden calfs. :oldthumbsup:
It’s clear that in scripture certain objects were venerated.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,303
76
✟363,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sure, because if scripture is clear on anything it’s that God wants us to pray to buildings, paintings, stained glass windows, statues, and golden calfs.

If you need to misrepresent what people wrote in order to make your point, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where do you get the idea that they were necessary to protect the priest from the glory of God? What do you think the glory of God is? SOmething we need an umbrella from? The cheribum were simply there on the lid. The glory of GOd, if presence was everywhere and if the priest had hidden sin in his life, it might not be a long life if the lot fell to him to enter. No statue protects a man from God.
I was referring to 2 Chronicles 5:7-10
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sure, because if scripture is clear on anything it’s that God wants us to pray to buildings, paintings, stained glass windows, statues, and golden calfs. :oldthumbsup:
If you need to misrepresent what people wrote in order to make your point, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?

Sure. If you could get off your knees, put down the incense and candles, and step away from the Virgin Mary statue for a moment, please tell me all about it. :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sure. If you could get off your knees, put down the incense and candles, and step away from the Virgin Mary statue for a moment, please tell me all about it. :oldthumbsup:
Please don’t comment on Icons or statues if you misinterpret scripture, so please step away from misinterpreting scripture for a moment.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please don’t comment on Icons or statues if you misinterpret scripture, so please step away from misinterpreting scripture for a moment.
By misinterpreting scripture do you mean like claiming the Israelites prayed to the temple (#173) only to realize they didn't (#175)? :wave:
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,303
76
✟363,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Barbarian observes:
If you need to misrepresent what people wrote in order to make your point, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?

Sure. If you could get off your knees, put down the incense and candles, and step away from the Virgin Mary statue for a moment, please tell me all about it. :oldthumbsup:

This seems to be an emotional issue with you. Instead of resenting other Christians, focus on loving God. Everything else will come from that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
By misinterpreting scripture do you mean like claiming the Israelites prayed to the temple (#173) only to realize they didn't (#175)? :wave:
Where did I say they prayed to the temple? I said they prayed facing the temple. Which they did as Solomon did.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where did I say they prayed to the temple? I said they prayed facing the temple. Which they did as Solomon did.

The spirit of God resided in the Temple, and the Jews worshipped God by praying to his temple and venerating it as the Bible and Rabbinic tradition says they did. God’s glory resides in all his saints, prophets, and teachers, an icon is a reflection of that glory. An idol is an image worshipped as a god, so your reffering to Icons as idols is incorrect.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,303
76
✟363,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Your projection is duly noted.

You'd probably do better, if you calmed down a bit and worked on forming a cogent argument.
Anger is a weapon you use to harm yourself.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Dorothy Mae
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums