Were Jews Born or Made?

FireDragon76 said:

I think that's overstating the case. They may not be conforming to Jewish religious law but that doesn't necessarily make them un-Jewish. There have been various periods of Jewish history where some Jews were not circumcised or observed traditional aspects of the Jewish religious law, for various reasons, yet they were still identified as Jews (indeed, I'd imagine many Jews that died in the holocaust were not necessarily observant Jews). Reformed Judaism has always been willing to question the place of circumcision and other customs in Jewish life.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Two definitions.
1) Blood descendant
2) Spiritual descendant
So, use context to figure out which one is being used at any given time.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

You just referenced one definition of Jew. You can't prove there is not another definition by repeatedly quoting a verse that always uses one of two definitions.

A Jew is one that belongs to the nation of Israel. This is the problem with Romans 11. People don't see the switch between a reference to descendants of Abraham and the people of God's chosen.

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

Clearly this shows there are some Jews that are in God's family, and some not. The Jews that are in God's family match both definitions I gave. The Jews that are not, match definition 1. The Gentiles that are saved match definition 2. They are called Israel; means they are a Jew.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Do you understand the two definitions of Jew I gave?
Do you understand the example I gave in Romans 11 references two different Jews?

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Jew/Israel certainly does have one meaning of being one of God's people/flock. It is not a religion as it includes both OT Old Covenant Jewish law and also NT New Covenant Christian religion. This is what I called a spiritual descendant in my definition, because the saved are children of God.

As to you not understanding the other definition of Jew being an ethnic descendant of Abraham, I can't help you when you ignore clear words of Paul saying some, not all of his fellow Jews will be saved. As I said, not all Jews will be saved. Jesus argued with many he called Jews that were not saved.

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AnticipateHisComing said:

Quibble, quibble, quibble. Ignore, ignore, ignore.



Scripture uses the terminology descendant of Abraham for Jew multiple times.

Exodus 33:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’

Deuteronomy 1:8 See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—and to their descendants after them.”

Psalm 105:6
you his servants, the descendants of Abraham, his chosen ones, the children of Jacob.

Isaiah 41:8
“But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

John 8:33
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Romans 11:1
[ The Remnant of Israel ] I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I.

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