Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 19, 2018

Childofgodharrison said:
That is what I mean, I don't go to church. I came out of the Church about 18 years ago. I came into the knowledge of many things. Some people were telling me that I was wrong for not attending Church. It didn't do any good to try to explain anything to them. I learned from an Apostle for about 5 years or so. I still listen to him from time to time. I have been on my own. Living by the Spirit. Then I backslid. I was thrown to the demons. Now I have got it right. I want do that again. I am now on the right track. That's why I said I may as well leave this site. My understanding about several things are different, and those who call themselves Christian think that I have lost my mind. It gets tiring sometimes, but I have to stick with what I know is true. Part of the great deception is Christianity. Jesus did not have a church. He still does not have a church. The bible use the word Church, but it means a called out people. The body of Christ is not a bunch of congregated bodies. He has only one body. They are just broken off pieces of the catholic church. Even though they teach different things its still a form of the catholic church. All the other religions are too.

The body of Christ is not the visible Church with all its denominations and divisions. It is made up of all those who have received Christ as Saviour. Because you are a born again believer, you are part of that body. There are many like you who have been hurt, discouraged, and disillusioned by the visible church they once attended. I left the Pentecostal movement because of the vain promises, gossiping and lack of sheer Christian love and grace that was going on in the particular church I was going to. I tarred and feathered the whole movement just because of one church group that was not demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit.

I got myself involved in an interdenominational organisation founded by an old friend who had decided to stop going to church on Sundays. Being an itinerate preacher and teacher, he is invited to many churches around his region. Being involved with him and his ministry was a big component in my healing and reassurance that there were many "who had not bowed the knee to Baal".
So my priority list is:
God and Jesus first
Wife and family next
My job next
The church last

One of the reasons why I left the Charismatic church I had attended for 11 years, was that demands on my loyalty to them conflicted with loyalty to my wife, who, in some respects did not agree with many of the things they did. This is an example of a church trying to dominate over and above a person's relationship with God and Christ. My view now is that there is always another church down the road, and if anyone tries to cut in between my loyalty to my wife again, I will be saying: "Sayonara" to them and will go on my way rejoicing.

My old pastor once said, "God does everything perfectly right, but we have to forgive some of His servants sometimes." That was a very good piece of advice which has helped me see the difference between God's attitude toward me and the attitude of some "Pharisees" in the church I attended.

Childofgodharrison · Sep 19, 2018

Oscarr said:
The body of Christ is not the visible Church with all its denominations and divisions. It is made up of all those who have received Christ as Saviour. Because you are a born again believer, you are part of that body. There are many like you who have been hurt, discouraged, and disillusioned by the visible church they once attended. I left the Pentecostal movement because of the vain promises, gossiping and lack of sheer Christian love and grace that was going on in the particular church I was going to. I tarred and feathered the whole movement just because of one church group that was not demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit.

I got myself involved in an interdenominational organisation founded by an old friend who had decided to stop going to church on Sundays. Being an itinerate preacher and teacher, he is invited to many churches around his region. Being involved with him and his ministry was a big component in my healing and reassurance that there were many "who had not bowed the knee to Baal".
So my priority list is:

God and Jesus first
Wife and family next
My job next
The church last

One of the reasons why I left the Charismatic church I had attended for 11 years, was that demands on my loyalty to them conflicted with loyalty to my wife, who, in some respects did not agree with many of the things they did. This is an example of a church trying to dominate over and above a person's relationship with God and Christ. My view now is that there is always another church down the road, and if anyone tries to cut in between my loyalty to my wife again, I will be saying: "Sayonara" to them and will go on my way rejoicing.

My old pastor once said, "God does everything perfectly right, but we have to forgive some of His servants sometimes." That was a very good piece of advice which has helped me see the difference between God's attitude toward me and the attitude of some "Pharisees" in the church I attended.

I was not hurt by the church I attended. I liked going because I thought I was being obedient to God. The body of Christ is the same today as it was in the book of Acts. There were no church institutions in the beginning. That's why Paul was addressing the people about their divisions. The sabbath is really on Saturday, the catholic church changed the day to Sunday. To worship the Sun God. The churches took on that tradition. Some of the things in the churches came from old traditions. I didn't leave the church because of the people I left because there was a deep void in me. I believe it was because I was not being fed. I wanted to know God so badly, but something was wrong. Now I know what it was. When we attend a church and dedicate ourselves to it. That is another covering. We cover our heads with something other than Jesus. I know your not going to except that, nobody does. In the church you can't go no further than the a b c's. It keeps you in elementary. Jesus is our covering. Him only. After you get past your a b c's, you will be taught by the Holy Spirit. Man don't know what's next, but the Holy Spirit does. He knows what we need to know. He can't lead if we are under some other covering. They started out killing the believers, but then they found another way. Deception. Keep them in infancy, so they will never know what's really going on, and never come into the truth and the understanding of the things of God. Give them a false religion. Just as Jesus walk around teaching, healing the sick and casting out demons, and teaching about the Kingdom of God, that is what we are suppose to be doing. Not establishing institutions all over the world. A house divided cannot stand. This body of Christ(the ones called Christians) are divided.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 20, 2018

Childofgodharrison said:
I was not hurt by the church I attended. I liked going because I thought I was being obedient to God. The body of Christ is the same today as it was in the book of Acts. There were no church institutions in the beginning. That's why Paul was addressing the people about their divisions. The sabbath is really on Saturday, the catholic church changed the day to Sunday. To worship the Sun God. The churches took on that tradition. Some of the things in the churches came from old traditions. I didn't leave the church because of the people I left because there was a deep void in me. I believe it was because I was not being fed. I wanted to know God so badly, but something was wrong. Now I know what it was. When we attend a church and dedicate ourselves to it. That is another covering. We cover our heads with something other than Jesus. I know your not going to except that, nobody does. In the church you can't go no further than the a b c's. It keeps you in elementary. Jesus is our covering. Him only. After you get past your a b c's, you will be taught by the Holy Spirit. Man don't know what's next, but the Holy Spirit does. He knows what we need to know. He can't lead if we are under some other covering. They started out killing the believers, but then they found another way. Deception. Keep them in infancy, so they will never know what's really going on, and never come into the truth and the understanding of the things of God. Give them a false religion. Just as Jesus walk around teaching, healing the sick and casting out demons, and teaching about the Kingdom of God, that is what we are suppose to be doing. Not establishing institutions all over the world. A house divided cannot stand. This body of Christ(the ones called Christians) are divided.

You are correct. There is no such thing as the perfect church. If I found a perfect church and I joined it, it would no longer be perfect!

The Church is not meant to be a showcase of perfect Christians. It is more of a hospital for sinners, sick people, seekers, and strugglers. Good churches know that and do all they could to help such people. Jesus did not come to heal people who were not sick, nor did He come for the righteous. He came to save sinners and heal sick people.

If churches are like Willow Creek Community Church who reject those who do not uphold their "image", or move homeless people to the back out of sight so they don't appear in their televised services, then they are not churches that Jesus can be involved with. He would turn His back on churches like that.

Many times it is the humble home church, or the one that meets in an obscure shop front in a small town that does more to do the work of Christ than some mega church in one of the larger cities.

Fellowship with other like-minded believers is the best way of building yourself up and strengthening your faith in Christ. It doesn't have to be going to a formal church. It can be meeting Christian friends over a cup of coffee in the local food hall at the mall. When Jesus said when two or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst, He did not say it had to be in a church building. Even remembering the Lord's death can happen with a cup of coffee and a muffin, because just because they had bread and wine in the upper room which was the food available at the time, doesn't mean that using coffee and muffins is remembering the Lord's death is any less. You can actually do that every time you have a drink of coffee and bite into your muffin, and be able to say to the Lord, "I am remembering your death until you come." That is probably more meaningful than a formalised Eucharist, because you would be doing it from your heart to the Lord, and not just doing out of duty for ceremonial or ritualistic purposes.

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

Oscarr said:
I don't have a problem with either way (immediate or subsequent), because it is according to a person's faith. But the fruit of the indwelling Spirit is immediate in its germination although it takes time to be fully developed (through sanctification), and the manifestation of the gifts appear as the believer gains a bit of maturity after the novice period. I think there has to be a time of apprenticeship and training before being able to exercise some gifts that involve a level of responsibility in their use. A lot of harm has been caused by immature, inexperienced novices trying to use prophecy, words of knowledge, and discerning of spirits, before they are properly trained in the use of them.

Thanks. I agree. This brings up a few interesting things.

The Greek word for "fruit" used in Galatians 5:22 is karpos. (2590) The root word is harpazo 726; fruit (as plucked) - So this carries the meaning of something that has come to maturity, a ripeness, or the final product. Like fruit boxed up in a crate. It doesn't just magically appear there. Which follows what you are saying.

Another thing is the human aspect of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It's more of a partnership than a person being taken over by a spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us guidance, we are still responsible for our actions and how we use the gifts. And we do indeed need to learn how to do it, and be instructed about proper use. Those who don't operate in the gifts seem to have this idea that we are giving ourselves over to an unknown entity like a human rag doll.

1 Corinthians 14:32
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This also solves a major contention many have with the gifts, and tongues specifically. Look at the context. (vs 33)

1 Corinthians 14:31-33
For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
From your perspective what is the difference between the "indwelling" and the "baptism of the Spirit"? You say they both happen at conversion. Why two things that have to do with the Spirit, yet you deny what we call the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, as a separate baptism from water baptism.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is when the Spirit takes up permanent residence in the heart of the believer.

John 14:17 “He will give you another Helper....that is the Spirit of truth....He abides with you and will be in you”

1 Corinthians 6:19 “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you"

Among other things, the indwelling Spirit creates new life in a believer, gives him new desires and purpose, and produces the fruit of the Spirit.

Baptism of the Spirit is what unites the believer into the body of Christ, the universal Church (1 Cor 12:13). Christ is the head of the Church and we are his body. Jesus is the baptizer, and the Spirit is the medium. There is no command in Scripture to be baptized in the Spirit because it takes place at salvation.

Water baptism is symbolic of Spirit baptism. The minister is the baptizer, and water is the medium.

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I wasn't surprised to find posters on this topic that are against tongues. What surprised me the most was of those supportive of tongues that didn't support the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a separate experience from conversion and water baptism. It is so clear to me from scripture that this was the pattern established in the Acts of the Apostles. I'm not trying to the workings of the Spirit in a box, but I thought the standard was obvious.

The baptism of the Spirit being a subsequent experience is old-school Pentecostal theology. Virtually all theologians nowadays, including the most respected Pentecostal and charismatic commentators, agree that it occurs at salvation.

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is when the Spirit takes up permanent residence in the heart of the believer.

John 14:17 “He will give you another Helper....that is the Spirit of truth....He abides with you and will be in you”

1 Corinthians 6:19 “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you"

Among other things, the indwelling Spirit creates new life in a believer, gives him new desires and purpose, and produces the fruit of the Spirit.

Baptism of the Spirit is what unites the believer into the body of Christ, the universal Church (1 Cor 12:13). Christ is the head of the Church and we are his body. Jesus is the baptizer, and the Spirit is the medium. There is no command in Scripture to be baptized in the Spirit because it takes place at salvation.

Water baptism is symbolic of Spirit baptism. The minister is the baptizer, and water is the medium.

Okay. Thanks for explaining your position on this.

What manifestations (gifts) of the Spirit did you receive upon water baptism?

You do know that 1 Corinthians 6:19 is not talking about the physical body, right? (the body of believers)

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
The baptism of the Spirit being a subsequent experience is old-school Pentecostal theology. Virtually all theologians nowadays, including the most respected Pentecostal and charismatic commentators, agree that it occurs at salvation.

That's news to me. I'm going to start a topic in the Pentecostal area asking about this. Thanks.

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Oscarr said:
Where did he speak in tongues then, if not in the church? If he did all his speaking of tongues in the church, why did he say "but in the church..." If he always spoke in tongues in church then that phrase would be nonsense.

I agree Paul spoke in tongues outside of church meetings. The only viable place that doesn't violate scripture would be in public places on his missionary journeys as an authenticating sign to foreigners. Just as it was at Pentecost.

Emli · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Okay. Thanks for explaining your position on this.

What manifestations (gifts) of the Spirit did you receive upon water baptism?

You do know that 1 Corinthians 6:19 is not talking about the physical body, right? (the body of believers)

Actually, 1 Corinthians 6:19 is definitely talking about the physical body. Because Paul is talking about sexual sins, which we commit with our physical bodies. Read the surrounding verses. We are all members the Body of Christ, but His Spirit dwells in our physical bodies, making our bodies His temples.

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
What manifestations (gifts) of the Spirit did you receive upon water baptism?

I received no additional gifts at my water baptism (although I did feel very blessed).

Saint Steven said:
You do know that 1 Corinthians 6:19 is not talking about the physical body, right? (the body of believers)

The 'body' is that verse is the physical body of the believer (check the context). But the part that relevant to our discussion is "...the Holy Spirit who is in you".

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
That's news to me. I'm going to start a topic in the Pentecostal area asking about this. Thanks.

Here is a list of excerpts by theologians regarding the baptism of the Spirit. It includes the Pentecostal Gordon Fee, the charismatic Wayne Grudem, and a number of other continuists.

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Here is a list of excerpts by theologians regarding the baptism of the Spirit. It includes the Pentecostal Gordon Fee, the charismatic Wayne Grudem, and a number of other continuists.

Wow. 29 pages. Quite the tome.

Here's a thought. Why couldn't the reference to "baptized by one Spirit" in first Corinthians twelve not be in reference to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience which they had all had? There is no reason to assume they were like us. If they were all operating in gifts, then I would more likely assume that they had all had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience. Otherwise, where's the news? Why even say such a thing? What's the point?

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Here's a thought. Why couldn't the reference to "baptized by one Spirit" in first Corinthians twelve not be in reference to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience which they had all had? There is no reason to assume they were like us. If they were all operating in gifts, then I would more likely assume that they had all had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience. Otherwise, where's the news? Why even say such a thing? What's the point?

Paul says that the BoS is what unites believers into the body of Christ, the universal Church. Are the people you say are not baptized in the Spirit not part of the body of Christ?

Childofgodharrison · Sep 20, 2018

Oscarr said:
You are correct. There is no such thing as the perfect church. If I found a perfect church and I joined it, it would no longer be perfect!

The Church is not meant to be a showcase of perfect Christians. It is more of a hospital for sinners, sick people, seekers, and strugglers. Good churches know that and do all they could to help such people. Jesus did not come to heal people who were not sick, nor did He come for the righteous. He came to save sinners and heal sick people.

If churches are like Willow Creek Community Church who reject those who do not uphold their "image", or move homeless people to the back out of sight so they don't appear in their televised services, then they are not churches that Jesus can be involved with. He would turn His back on churches like that.

Many times it is the humble home church, or the one that meets in an obscure shop front in a small town that does more to do the work of Christ than some mega church in one of the larger cities.

Fellowship with other like-minded believers is the best way of building yourself up and strengthening your faith in Christ. It doesn't have to be going to a formal church. It can be meeting Christian friends over a cup of coffee in the local food hall at the mall. When Jesus said when two or three are gathered together, there He is in the midst, He did not say it had to be in a church building. Even remembering the Lord's death can happen with a cup of coffee and a muffin, because just because they had bread and wine in the upper room which was the food available at the time, doesn't mean that using coffee and muffins is remembering the Lord's death is any less. You can actually do that every time you have a drink of coffee and bite into your muffin, and be able to say to the Lord, "I am remembering your death until you come." That is probably more meaningful than a formalised Eucharist, because you would be doing it from your heart to the Lord, and not just doing out of duty for ceremonial or ritualistic purposes.

It would be good to fellowship with like-minded believers, but all around me people are church goers. Fellowshipping means just being together and enjoying each others company. You could talk about things that are going on in your life, and new things that have been revealed to you. The Holy spirit takes you though all kinds of experiences and sufferings in order to teach you. When you are being taught by the hand of God the learning is meant to stay. The Holy Spirit teaches indeed.
When you don't attend Church , people don't want to hear what you are saying and don't care what you are saying. When Satan and his followers are looking to persecute the body of Christ, they want be looking for those who are still attending Church. They will look for those who claim to be believers but do not belong to a church. Because he know that the body of Christ will be under the covering of Christ, which is invisible. In the Church he knows where you are. In the trap that he set up. There are so many lies and deceptions.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
I agree Paul spoke in tongues outside of church meetings. The only viable place that doesn't violate scripture would be in public places on his missionary journeys as an authenticating sign to foreigners. Just as it was at Pentecost.

He doesn't specify that, nor does Luke. So, if he spoke in tongues in a public meeting and unbelievers present would think he was mad, then if he spoke in tongues in front of unbelievers in the market place wouldn't they have the same attitude? Seems inconsistent to me.

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Paul says that the BoS is what unites believers into the body of Christ, the universal Church. Are the people you say are not baptized in the Spirit not part of the body of Christ?

I'm talking about what was true at the time it was written. You are hoping to prove that I am in error, but the opposite may be true.

Saint Steven · Sep 20, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Here is a list of excerpts by theologians regarding the baptism of the Spirit. It includes the Pentecostal Gordon Fee, the charismatic Wayne Grudem, and a number of other continuists.

A quick poll of the Pentecostals here on CF says no changes to the subsequent aspect of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Oscarr said:
He doesn't specify that, nor does Luke.

Nor does it specify that he spoke in tongues in private. But one option is scriptural, the other isn't. So which is more likely?

Oscarr said:
So, if he spoke in tongues in a public meeting and unbelievers present would think he was mad, then if he spoke in tongues in front of unbelievers in the market place wouldn't they have the same attitude? Seems inconsistent to me.

Did the foreigners at Pentecost think the disciples were mad?

swordsman1 · Sep 20, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I'm talking about what was true at the time it was written. You are hoping to prove that I am in error, but the opposite may be true.

Same question applies. Paul said that their baptism in the Spirit united them into the body of Christ. Does that mean the Corinthian believers, prior to their supposed 2nd experience, were not part of the body of Christ?

Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Senior Veteran

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Growing daughter of God

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads