Daniel 7:11 and Beast and False Prophet Reve 13:20

DaDad said in post #59:

2. For a "rapture", we must first raise the dead. And this doesn't occur until the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

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Note that the raising of the Christian dead will occur at the "first resurrection", before the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

It is sometimes claimed that the "first resurrection" refers to the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6). But the truth is that the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the "first resurrection" will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the still-future 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all of the non-Christian dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that Christians will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the still-future 1,000 years.

Also, the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it will not occur until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the resurrection of the Church which will occur at that time will be a physical resurrection, just as Jesus' resurrection on the third day after His death was a physical resurrection (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Bible2+ said:

Note that the Tribulation of Revelation ... will begin with a horrible war, ...

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Certainly there will be a middle eastern war, but where does it say immediately at the start of the 42 months? I haven't seen that passage, but maybe I missed it.

One could argue that WWII started (certainly it's path) NOT with the invasion of Poland, but maybe the subjugation of Czechoslovakia, or maybe the military/political interference in Austria, or maybe even with the violations of the Versailles Treaty.

Historians like GREAT and SPECIFIC DATES for GREAT and UNSPECIFIC EVENTS.

Thanks,
DaDad

Bible2+ said:

Note that the raising of the Christian dead will occur at the "first resurrection", before the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6)..

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WHAT?!? You mean the martyred for not receiving the Mark of the Beast, will include ALL the DEAD? That's not what it says.
You might want to re-read that passage:


Thanks,
DaDad

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

DaDad said in post #62:

Certainly there will be a middle eastern war, but where does it say immediately at the start of the 42 months?

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Regarding the 42 months of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), note that it could be during only the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 and Matthew 24, which could last seven years, and which will begin with the last three of the four horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8). And they represent a horrible, future war which will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

The Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of one-fourth of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace, and antitypically fulfill the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way that the future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army so that it can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program, its ballistic missile program, its terrorist-group support operations, and its extremist regime, which seeks ruthless hegemony over the entire Middle East, especially in Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon. As part of a U.S. buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and powerfully.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead Western intelligence agencies to instigate a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq (with the assistance of thousands of Western special forces dressed in Iraqi uniforms). For the West could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to permanently eradicate Islamic State, and any of its successors, from ever terrorizing Iraq again, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who cannot stand that the Iraqi government is so heavily controlled by Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current, viable bulwark against the (Shiite, non-Arab) Iranians, and their Shiite Arab cronies, taking total control of all of Iraq and Syria. But if there are secret, Western overtures toward these Baathist generals (who are now holed up in far-eastern Syria), they could very well agree to defect from serving Islamic State to leading a non-sectarian, "Free Iraqi Army" drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which Army, with secret Western assistance, could then march on Baghdad and completely overthrow the current, Iranian-controlled, Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt. (Indeed, a mere puff of wind could cause it to collapse; so that the Western-engineered Baathist overthrow of it could be called: "Operation Freedom Wind".)

Once the Iraqi Baathists (and Kurds) take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could then also defeat all of the Iranian-controlled Shiite Arab militias in Iraq. Then, to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran itself, "false flag" operations could be managed by Western intelligence agencies by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and Kurds (and their little children) terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi masses will become enraged, and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to clear the site for the building of a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the small territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being like a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free from all foreign (including U.S.) hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles, and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time (from the east, north, and south), with thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and a thousand Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its small area of land overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that they could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that one-fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

(Continued in next post)

(Continued from prior post)

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). And he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (that is, a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm, such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas, while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders.

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all of the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and permitting them to keep control of the Old City for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It is all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (that is, to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all of the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other Arab regimes, such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people, while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all of the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings, sheikhs, and innumerable princes of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all of the Arabs, the Prophet's own people, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western, infidel interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the seven-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a truly-federal, United Arab States, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism, and start speaking of: "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich United Arab States join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of, and use it as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire world (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the seven-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole world by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). These 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus Christ returns, He will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and He will have Satan bound in the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus, and the physically resurrected Church (of all times, including those in the Church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist), will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

DaDad said in post #63:

You mean the martyred for not receiving the Mark of the Beast, will include ALL the DEAD?

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Note that Revelation 20:4-6 does not mean that only those Christians who will be beheaded by the future Antichrist will be resurrected in the "first resurrection" and reign on the earth with Jesus Christ during the still-future Millennium. For the "first resurrection" will be the physical resurrection of all Christians (of all times) at Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient Christian (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Bible2+ said:

Note that Revelation 20:4-6 does not mean that only those Christians who will be beheaded by the future Antichrist will be resurrected in the "first resurrection" and reign on the earth with Jesus Christ during the still-future Millennium. For the "first resurrection" will be the physical resurrection of all Christians (of all times) at Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient Christian (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

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Note carefully that this answer is mostly myth.

Paul's rapture will come just before the 6th seal and will trigger THE DAY and God's wrath that will start at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal will begin the 70th week of Daniel.

There is no date on the "first" or chiefest of all resurrections: Jesus was the very first of this chief resurrection. It is not first in TIME, it is first in honor. Jesus first, the rapture of the church next, the catching up of the 144,000 next, the Old Testament saints and those beheaded on the last day. Paul's rapture will be Jesus' second coming, FOR His saints, and His coming as seen in Rev. 19 will be His third coming to the battle of Armageddon WITH His saints.

Bible2+ said:

Regarding the 42 months of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign

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Hey B2,
You sure threw in a LOT of could, might, maybe, in you posts. And while it's rational to contemplate future events, it seems to me to be more accurate with what Scripture actually says, and your dissertation has several errors and mis-conclusions.

Perhaps we could clear a few of them up.

Thanks,
DaDad

Bible2+ said:

... Revelation 20:4-6 does not mean that only those Christians who will be beheaded by the future Antichrist will be resurrected in the "first resurrection" ...

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Seems pretty clear to me.
DaDad

iamlamad said in post #70:

Paul's rapture will come just before the 6th seal and will trigger THE DAY and God's wrath that will start at the 6th seal.

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Note that the Tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the future Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. For the future Day of the Lord itself will not begin until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the future Day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) will not begin until Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the future Tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job did not go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11; and just as the apostles John and Matthew did not go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a; so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the Tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). And nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of strange horse-like beings led by four fallen angels who are currently bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels (that is, his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the future Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare non-Christians to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, Satan could deceive non-Christians into actively hating YHWH and worshipping Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the Tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of Christians (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the future Antichrist's worldwide reign, Christians will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus Himself is not the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ Himself is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against Christians (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath. For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the future Tribulation's final stage, because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any Christians who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus Christ will return right after the seventh-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30). And He Himself will bring the Second-Coming wrath of God upon non-Christians (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that Second-Coming wrath begins, Christians will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

DaDad said in post #72:

Seems pretty clear to me.

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Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note that nothing in Revelation 20:4-6 says or requires that only the beheaded Christians will be in the "first resurrection".

For example, in Revelation 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" includes reference to when, during the future Millennium, the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ will sit on twelve thrones, "judging" the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), in the sense of ongoing rule, like how the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

Also, regarding Revelation 20:6, note that all obedient Christians (of all times) will reign with Jesus on the earth during the future Millennium (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

For the "first resurrection" will be the physical resurrection of all Christians (of all times) at Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Bible2+ said:

Note that nothing in Revelation 20:4-6 says or requires that only the beheaded Christians will be in the "first resurrection".

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It's so sad that some some people have serious physical impairments. You probably lost your sight in an unfortunate circumstance. My dearest sympathies.

Thanks,
DaDad

Bible2+ said:

Note that the Tribulation's sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the future Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. For the future Day of the Lord itself will not begin until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the future Day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) will not begin until Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the future Tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job did not go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11; and just as the apostles John and Matthew did not go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a; so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the Tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). And nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of strange horse-like beings led by four fallen angels who are currently bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels (that is, his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the future Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare non-Christians to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, Satan could deceive non-Christians into actively hating YHWH and worshipping Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the Tribulation's seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of Christians (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the future Antichrist's worldwide reign, Christians will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus Himself is not the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ Himself is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against Christians (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath. For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the future Tribulation's final stage, because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any Christians who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus Christ will return right after the seventh-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30). And He Himself will bring the Second-Coming wrath of God upon non-Christians (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that Second-Coming wrath begins, Christians will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

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Readers note carefully that this post is myth. Read when THE DAY starts from John Himself:
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I didn't say it, John wrote it! I just copy what John wrote. It seems some here imagine they have a better idea than John backed by the Holy Spirit.

Then some people imagine that those that SAID it was THE DAY were in error. Readers, don't be led astray by this: ask yourself WHY did they say it was THE DAY? Read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 about the SIGNS of the day: they SAW the signs. They SAW and lived through this worldwide earthquake - the first ever quake that was world wide. They SAW the sun turn dark and the moon appear blood red. So they were correct: It was (will be) the start of THE DAY.

Then if we believe what the Old Testament says of "THE DAY" we read that it will be God's plan to bring destruction to earth and to the sinners on the earth. Now, readers, take notice of the trumpet judgments: are they bringing destruction? The answer is a very obvious YES.

Therefore, make no mistake: THE DAY of the Lord will start at the 6th seal, still on our future. It is a MYTH that THE DAY cannot start until Jesus comes.

DaDad said:

It's so sad that some some people have serious physical impairments. You probably lost your sight in an unfortunate circumstance. My dearest sympathies.

Rev. 20:4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
​

Thanks,
DaDad

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Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...

These also have been resurrected, or have resurrection bodies, but they are NOT beheaded: they are the New and Old Testament saints who have their resurrection bodies. The church received their resurrection bodies at Paul's rapture, and the Old Testament saints received theirs at their resurrection on the last day, at the 7th vial.

DaDad said in post #75:

You probably lost your sight in an unfortunate circumstance.

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Note that we cannot lose sight of the part of Revelation 20:4 which you omitted, or that you stopped before Revelation 20:6, which applies to more than just beheaded Christians (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 1:6).

Also, we must never lose sight that the resurrection of the entire Church, of all times, will occur at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52), which is shown in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, and which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31).

iamlamad said in post #76:

[Re: Revelation 6:17]

WHY did they say it was THE DAY? Read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 about the SIGNS of the day . . .

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Regarding Joel 2, note that the sixth seal will only be sometime "before" the day (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12).

Regarding Isaiah 2, note that the Day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, not at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For during the second half of the Tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), not YHWH, which would contradict "YHWH alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the second half of the Tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), which would contradict that in that day "the idols he [YHWH] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the first stage of the future Tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It is not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before Jesus' Second Coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the Second Coming.

iamlamad said in post #76:

It is a MYTH that THE DAY cannot start until Jesus comes.

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Note that it is the Bible which shows that the future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post #77:

The church received their resurrection bodies at Paul's rapture . . .

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Note that Paul's rapture is post-trib.

For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). And this is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

iamlamad said in post #77:

. . . and the Old Testament saints received theirs at their resurrection on the last day, at the 7th vial.

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Note that all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Also, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' Second Coming, the souls of all obedient dead Christians of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth, those who will still be "alive and remain", will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a). And then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus Christ will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

DaDad said:

Rev. 20:4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.​

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Bible2+ said:

Note that we cannot lose sight of the part of Revelation 20:4 which you omitted, or that you stopped before Revelation 20:6, which applies to more than just beheaded Christians (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 1:6).

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I have absolutely no problem accepting that the DEAD have two resurrections. The Martyred are resurrected when Jesus Returns, and the rest of the dead are resurrected after the thousand years.

And in reference to your Rev. 1 & Rev. 6, -- men who are alive when Jesus returns or born during the Millennial Kingdom with join the Martyred as "priests" to GOD.

Did you think that the "raptured church" is mentioned, thereby justifying a "tribulation-era rapture"? -- No. All we can believe is that the DEAD rise first, per Rev. 20:


... and that those who are alive and remain on earth shall be caught up to the New Jerusalem to be with the LORD forever in the air.

And of course the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

Thanks,
DaDad