Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

jgr · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
There is no such thing as a Papal Roman Empire, so yes. The Roman Church was the official religion of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was not the official empire of the Papal church. The Holy Roman Empire also had an emperor, the pope was not its head. That is all besides the point which is this. The Roman Empire was nothing unusual as far as world empires were concerned. All empires and kingdoms persecuted Christians pretty much equally. What the Roman Empire does do as far as prophecy is concerned is it gives us a timeline to tell us when the age that had been promised throughout scripture would begin. At its end which was 1453 AD.

What occurred when it ended was very simple. For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. This happened because of the commercial printing presses that came on line the very year the empire ended. The first place the general public got Bibles was Northern Europe. The second thing that happened was the kingdoms and empires could not conquer the peoples armed with Bibles. This was also a first in human history outside of ancient Israel.

The difference between the reformers and the Roman church and other imperial churches of the European kings? Very simple. The first was the non Bible possessing non Bible reading world. The second was the Bible possessing Bible reading world. Today you see the world divided between two camps. The Christians and non Christians who accept varying degrees of Biblical principle and want to run their lives and nations according to it verses; those who are ignorant or reject Bible principle. It the war behind all wars now, globally. Guess who the Bible says will come out on top of this war even though there will be setbacks, backsldings, lost battles? The nations most influenced by the Bible. That is the future as far as human beings are to be concerned.

Had there not been a Reformation, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The faith and sacrifice of the Reformers delivered the Church from the spiritual dark ages, and purchased the spiritual freedoms we take for granted today. It was a movement anchored in God's grace and mercy. Its defenders paid with their lives by the millions.

Who were the "emperors" of the (un)Holy Roman Empire if not the popes?

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
Had there not been a Reformation, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The faith and sacrifice of the Reformers delivered the Church from the spiritual dark ages, and purchased the spiritual freedoms we take for granted today. It was a movement anchored in God's grace and mercy. Its defenders paid with their lives by the millions.

Who were the "emperors" of the (un)Holy Roman Empire if not the popes?

Don’t be silly. The Holy Roman Empire had actual emperors and they were not the popes.
Who is knocking the reformers? But again your missing the bigger picture. There were many reformers and many reformations along the way to the 15th-16th centuries. Many nations that were coming under the influence of the Gospel, the Word and the invisible kingdom of God. All of them, for that 1500 year period were crushed, militarily by the powers that existed. The difference between defeat and success or victory was the Bible getting into the hands of the general public. THAT AND THAT ALONE is the reason the reformers after the end of that fourth empire survived and their reformation prospered.

The thinking that developed in those reformers over that century gave us the free world that today is still growing. It wasn’t a reformation of “the church” but a reformation of the hearts and minds of millions that came via the word of God planted inside of them. The Word that for the first time in history millions had personal accesses to. A reformation that again, continues today. That is what is transforming the world.

Childofgodharrison · Sep 15, 2018

Berean Tim said:
The Angel says the heads are 7 hillswhere the Woman sits. The word "Hills" makes the link or leap to Rome. The KJV and NIV translate the word as hills. Most others use mountains. If the translators were consistent we would be saying the "Hill of Olives" " Hill Zion". The word is used 64 times (Strong's 3735) , 62 times translated mount or mountain. Daniel in chapter 7 has 4 beast with a total of 7 heads with the final beast having 10 horns. They are 4 different kingdoms.

How then is all the heads on the 7 headed beast in REV 17 all Rome ?

Rome is known as the city of seven hills.

jgr · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
The Holy Roman Empire had actual emperors and they were not the popes.

Names?

Spiritual authority was wielded by the popes.

Daniel Martinovich said:
There were many reformers and many reformations along the way to the 15th-16th centuries.

Names?

Daniel Martinovich said:
The difference between defeat and success or victory was the Bible getting into the hands of the general public.

The Bible was first printed in 1454, and significant public penetration did not begin to occur for decades thereafter, into the Reformation era which began about 1517. Public penetration of Scripture was not a significant success factor in the Reformation until the Reformation's later stages.

The Roman Catholic church has always forbidden access to "unapproved" Scripture by its laity.

CURRENT CODE OF CANON LAW ON VERNACULAR BIBLES

The current Code of Canon Law, which went into effect in 1983, reads as follows:

Can. 825 § 1. Books of the Sacred Scriptures cannot be published unless they have been approved either by the Apostolic See or by the conference of bishops; for their vernacular translations to be published it is required that they likewise be approved by the same authority and also annotated with necessary and sufficient explanations.

§ 2. With the permission of the conference of bishops Catholic members of the Christian faithful can collaborate with separated brothers and sisters in preparing and publishing translations of the Sacred Scriptures annotated with appropriate explanations.

Source: Code of Canon Law, Latin-English Edition, copyright 1983 by Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Vatican City, published by the Canon Law Society of America, Washington DC 20064, ISBN: 0-943616-19-0, page 309.

Presumably the vast majority of the approximately fifty contemporary English translations of Scripture would be unapproved.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
You have no clues.

I never said I did. I SAID YOU have all the answers. And so everyone stops whatever they're doing when you post. You da man.
DaDad

Douggg · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
Names?

Spiritual authority was wielded by the popes.

copy and paste...

Christmas Day 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. In 1804, Napoleon was about to be crowned Emperor of the French. At the moment of his crowning, Napoleon unexpectedly took the crown from Pope Pius VII and crowned himself.

..... my understanding is that a lot of people at the time thought that Napoleon was the Antichrist. Maybe in part because he was short - thus the little horn, and had the sort of assertive personality.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
There's no record of the existence of this article, including on the UN Chronicle site. They've obviously trashed it.

Unsurprisingly, 25 years later, there is no discussion regarding expanding the size of the permanent portion of the Security Council, recognizing that it would only exacerbate existing dysfunctionality.

Might as well toss your article into the round file as well. You'll have to devise an alternative futurized explanation.

Really? Well here's an article a dozen years after the August 1993 proposal (as reported in the November publication):

U.N. Security Council Expansion Is Not in the U.S. Interest

August 18, 2005
Authors: Nile Gardiner and Brett Schaefer

In the next few months, the United Nations General Assembly is expected to consider several proposals to expand the U.N. Security Council from the current 15 members-five permanent members (China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States) and 10 non-permanent members elected to two-year terms. [1] There are several plans under consideration:

The most discussed proposal is sponsored by Germany, Japan, India, and Brazil-the so-called Group of Four (G-4) nations aspiring to permanent membership on the Security Council. This plan would expand the Security Council from 15 to 25 members by adding six permanent members without veto power (one for each of the G-4 nations and two for Africa) and four non-permanent seats elected for two-year terms. [2] The G-4 plan is supported by the U.K. and France, but strongly opposed by China.

...
https://www.heritage.org/report/un-security-council-expansion-not-the-us-interest

So if YOU can't find something, then it doesn't exist?

DaDad

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
Names?

Spiritual authority was wielded by the popes.

Names?

The Bible was first printed in 1454, and significant public penetration did not begin to occur for decades thereafter, into the Reformation era which began about 1517. Public penetration of Scripture was not a significant success factor in the Reformation until the Reformation's later stages.

The Roman Catholic church has always forbidden access to "unapproved" Scripture by its laity.

CURRENT CODE OF CANON LAW ON VERNACULAR BIBLES

The current Code of Canon Law, which went into effect in 1983, reads as follows:

Can. 825 § 1. Books of the Sacred Scriptures cannot be published unless they have been approved either by the Apostolic See or by the conference of bishops; for their vernacular translations to be published it is required that they likewise be approved by the same authority and also annotated with necessary and sufficient explanations.

§ 2. With the permission of the conference of bishops Catholic members of the Christian faithful can collaborate with separated brothers and sisters in preparing and publishing translations of the Sacred Scriptures annotated with appropriate explanations.

Source: Code of Canon Law, Latin-English Edition, copyright 1983 by Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Vatican City, published by the Canon Law Society of America, Washington DC 20064, ISBN: 0-943616-19-0, page 309.

Presumably the vast majority of the approximately fifty contemporary English translations of Scripture would be unapproved.

First off, I’m not lessening the evil of the Imperial Church of Rome.

About reformations. Since you know so much about the reformation then you must have read Foxes Book of Martyrs. Nice list of well known genocidal persecutions in there that all had one thing in common. The public being influenced by the scripture.. Which in light of the teachings imperial churches of the kings and emperors of Europe and Asia. Those were reformations.

I have two that I don’t think are listed in there. The Irish, a native Christian movement that evangelized Europe were told to submit to Rome. They naturally refused. Can’t remember the exact century as I no longer have the book that recorded it. Maybe the 9th? Anyway. 500 years worth of Irish books, Bibles and commentary were destroyed and their priests and Bishops put to the sword. They had all the families of Europe’s geneolgies back to Noah recorded in those books. So thorough was the slaughter and the purge that a once independently Christian Irish are now one of the most Catholic people in the world.

Another were the people of my heritage. The Serbians. Middle class and above actually had household Bibles. The Roman Emperor ordered them to submit to his church in Constantinople. They refused. After a couple hundred years of warfare. The new Serbian king sided with Roman Emperor against his own people. The exasperated Serbs then cut a deal with invading Muslim armies saying they will not fight with the Europeans if the Muslims will just allow them to keep their Christianity. Of course the Muslims agreed then did even worse to them then Constantinople. The rest is history. The Balkan’s.

Yes I know it took decades for the general public in Northern Europe to get Bibles. Martin Luther had 3 million of his tracks printed in a 3 year period just to describe the phenomena. The university system that Luther propagated his reform through was the product of a particular pope who was schooled in the NT and believed educators should all be well versed in it.

Still doesn’t change the facts on the ground. We are well past that age of the four gentile empires and still in the beginning stages of the age of promise that has hundreds of chapters of prophecy describing it. Describing what we are so blessed to live in.

jgr · Sep 15, 2018

Douggg said:
copy and paste...

Christmas Day 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. In 1804, Napoleon was about to be crowned Emperor of the French. At the moment of his crowning, Napoleon unexpectedly took the crown from Pope Pius VII and crowned himself.

..... my understanding is that a lot of people at the time thought that Napoleon was the Antichrist. Maybe in part because he was short - thus the little horn, and had the sort of assertive personality.

Notice that in 800 it was the pope, Leo, who did the crowning. Charlemagne wielded no religious authority.

The papacy, and the religious authority of its long era, ended in 1798 with Pius VI's capture by General Berthier of Napoleon's army. It would not re-emerge until the 20th century.

TribulationSigns · Sep 15, 2018

Dave Watchman said:
"Five have fallen, one IS, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

That does not say that the "one is" is the 6th head that was wounded. If God specifically did not say it, then it is your private interpretation. John wrote, one of the heads were fatal wounded, does not mean we should figure out which head qualified.

When the angel was talking to John in or around AD95, the new Christian Church was just forming. It would become the one that we call Catholic. The one that had not yet come, came in 1529 and would become known as Protestantism.

Based on what Scripture? If you cannot back it up with Scripture, it is called "speculation." So no you are not accurate.

In 1798 the Catholic Church was dealt with what looked like a fatal blow. Pope Pius was captured during the French Revolution and died in a jail cell. The Vatican was closed down until Benito Mussolini opened it up again in 1929.

Again speculation. Not biblical based.

It's looking pretty healed up right now. I can hear the composite beast open it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

God was not prophesied about RCC. Stop speculation, please.

In this case they're kings and mountains and blasphemous names. They're the seven religious belief systems.

Where did you find in Scripture where God has defined heads (mountains) as "religious belief systems"? Again Speculation.

Every person on earth can trace their affiliation to one of these heads that are preeminent in their class. And they're mostly all fallen at this point, come out of her my people, proven false by the work that the Lamb did on the cross for us.

What? Class? What are you talking about?!

TribulationSigns · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
I never said I did.

Like I SAID, you have no clues with what you were babbling about.

I SAID YOU have all the answers. And so everyone stops whatever they're doing when you post. You da man.

Such childish. Your repetitive sarcastic remarks do not excuse your erroneous doctrine.

Douggg · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
Notice that in 800 it was the pope, Leo, who did the crowning. Charlemagne wielded no religious authority.

The papacy, and the religious authority of its long era, ended in 1798 with Pius VI's capture by General Berthier of Napoleon's army. It would not re-emerge until the 20th century.

The reformers did not make the connection of the Antichrist as being the King of Israel (illegitimate) for a short while. They did, however, make a connection of the beast being the King of Rome (Roman Empire) though, which they thought to be in the person of the Pope.

The Pope can never become the King of Israel, embraced as such by the Jews.

It doesn't lessen the other achievements of the reformers, regarding getting out from under the RCC.

all the same person:
King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist
King of Roman Empire - the little horn (7th king), the beast (8th king)

Kalboon · Sep 15, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Ahem...

First of all, this has NOTHING to do with physical hills or mountain in Italy or 7 emperors. These are all speculations from carnal minds without biblical validation. We MUST compare Scripture with Scripture to find God's definition for the number 7, heads, and mountains. The interpretation always belongs to God which we must find it in His Holy Word, not national geography, history book, weather, Jerusalem Post, Google map, etc.

Genesis 40:8 KJV
[8] And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

Tonight, I will explain how we can understand the number 7 (seven) in Scripture. The number seven rather than representing the perfection is often numerical symbology illustrating the 'totality or completeness' of whatever is in view. It is the 'all inclusiveness' of a thing.

For example, the seven Churches of Asia (Revelation 1-3) represent the 'totality' of God's congregations (nothing to do with dispensationalism). This can be clearly seen as God says Christ stands in the midst of the seven candlesticks. This signifies that Christ stands in the midst of all Churches 'which are represented by these seven Churches' of Asia. Likewise, they are called seven golden candlesticks signifying that they are to be what the Old Testament called the [tamiyd], the 'Continual' or the 'Daily.' They are to be the light of the world shinning continually. This can also be seen in the seven stars of the seven candlesticks (Churches) which are the seven messengers of the Churches, and they are in God's right hand. These are all the messengers of the Churches whom God holds securely and who do His will (the right hand). The truth is, when God talks to these seven Churches, He is not talking to just those, nor talking to physical churches in Turkey, rather He is talking to all believers and to all Churches throughout time! The totality of them which spans throughout time. We, today, are part of the seven (totality) Churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements!

Revelation 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches: To Him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

God is talking to US, and all ELECT, and that is why these things found themselves recorded on pages to become scripture. To think that these messages were only to the seven Churches of that literal place in Asia is very foolish. Please notice that they are directed to 'he who hath an ear to hear.' That is all true believers. Not only the 1st century believers! The totality or complete Church throughout time. And the number seven signifies this totality. It is a Blessing to the faithful Church, and a warning to the unfaithful church. Overcome, and live, forsake God, and He will remove your Candlestick out of it's place. The seven Churches of Asia stand to represent all the Churches. The complete Church from then until our day.

Another place to see this symbolism is in the episode of the seven baskets full of fragments that was taken up when Jesus did His miracles.

Matthew 15:37

"And they did eat, and were filled, and they took up of the broken that was left, seven baskets full."

It is the totality of baskets taken up. The number seven illustrates that these baskets were 'completely' full. Upon careful consideration of the example, it illustrates there was still enough left over for the totality of all who are to eat of the leftover crumbs of bread. The baskets left were still totally full. Sufficient to the task. This, of course, is the spiritual 'signification' that there are enough crumbs left over for the Gentiles also. Remember the parable of the dogs eating the crumbs from their master's table?

Mark 7:28

"And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs".

..it is enough! The crumbs from the children's (Jews) table is enough to feed the 'totality' of the dogs (gentiles) who come after! Selah! There is spiritual signfication behind this! The seven baskets of crumbs signify that totality. For example, the miracle of Christ feeding Israel was both enough for them, and enough crumbs left over for the totality of those Gentiles who would eat the leftovers. It would feed both the First, and the Last. This is just part of the magnificent spiritual pictures that God incorporates into His Holy Word. The number seven signified the completeness of what is being spoken about.

Likewise, we can see the exact same application of the number seven in the opposite of Christ. As in the totality of authority in the kingdom of Satan. This is illustrated in the seven heads of the dragon as revealed in Revelation chapter twelve.

Revelation 12:3

"And there appeared another Wonder in Heaven, and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

The seven heads are seven mountains (Revelation 17:9) which are symbolic of kingdoms. Not physical mountains or hills! The heads signifies authority, so the number seven equals the totality of authority (heads) of this dragon and of his rule throughout time. The crowns signify that it is a kingdom and the seven his complete rule throughout time in it. Thus we see in this symbolism a picture of the totality of the dragon's (Satan's) rule. That is why it says (Revelation 17:10) that five of the heads of this beast had already fallen at the time of the writing of Revelation.

Those rules of Satan were over. It said, one is, and one is yet to come, and there was a final 8th (which was part of the seven). For example, it's part of 'this totality,' and he would rule a short time near the end of the world when Satan is loosed. The Seven illustrates the totality of the time of the rule of this beast. God uses this number in this way to show us certain Spiritual truths. It illustrates the totality of his authority (heads) and rule. He is the prince of the power of the air. When the seventh king falls, that will be the end of him, the finish of the totality of his rule and authority.

Related to this is the ten horns of this Beast that signifies a rule for 'a short time.' The number ten here illustrates the fullness of time while not being the complete (totality of) time. So we see seven as the totality of his time, and the number ten as a short period he reigns in within the totality. The very context and content of Revelation Chapter seventeen also confirm this. As the ten kings had received no kingdom as yet, but would reign later, one hour with this beast. The ten kings represent the false prophets and christs in the church who have not yet rule God's congregation since the Cross, until Satan loosened where they will receive power from him to rule with him for one hour. This has nothing to do with ten emporors of Rome, ten nations of European Union, or even ten regions of the world, etc. Everything have to do with God's New Testament congregations all over the world.

The whole Bible is replete with the numerical symbology of the number seven. There were seven seals to the book that is opened by the Lamb, which were indicating that it is completely or totally secure in these seals. No one could open it but God. Likewise, the seven trumpets are indicating the totality of God's judgments. From start to finish, when we reach seven, it is finished. Or in the seven vials which are the totality of the Wrath of God that is to be poured out upon the earth. All these things show this spiritual signification of the number. Even when Mary Magdalene was healed:

luke 8:2

"And certain woman, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called magdalene, out of whom went Seven Devils."

Mark 16:9

"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, He appeared unto mary Magdalene, out of whom went Seven devils."

Jesus cast out of her seven devils to signify the totality of the rule of Satan over her. In other words, she was in spiritual bondage of Satan. Likewise, when we are saved, we are made free from Satan where he no longer has rule over us. The number seven signified the total removal of Satan from within her, and now God would make His abode there. And what agreement has the Temple of God with the temple of idols? None. Satan is totally cast out. The Number seven illustrates his total rule in the unsaved. But by Grace of God he is totally cast out when we become Saved.

Leviticus 4:6

"And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the veil of the sanctuary".

There we see that the blood was to be sprinkled seven times, which signifies that the person is 'totally' forgiven and made completely clean. Likewise:

Matthew 18:22

"Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven".

In these verses God is illustrating that the number of times we should forgive someone is 'seventy times seven.' In other words, we are not to forgive just some sins, or even literally four hundred and ninety sins (70x7), but by the use of seven it is illustrating that we must forgive in totality. We must have complete forgiveness as often as we are sinned against, just as Christ has forgiven 'all' our sins. See? The number seven is multiplied by seventy (10x7) to emphasize total fullness and bring home the point that we must love as we are loved, unconditionally. As Christ continues to forgive us all our transgressions, so we are likewise to forgive in 'totality.'

Another example is in Revelation, where the Holy Spirit of God is signified by 'Seven spirits, and seven eyes.'

Revelation 3:1

"And unto the Angel of the Church at Sardis write, these things saith He that hath the Seven Spirits of God, and the Seven stars; I know thy Works, that thou hast a name which thou liveth, and art dead."

Revelation 4:5

"And out of the Throne proceedeth lightnings and Thunderings and voices; and there were Seven lamps of fire burning before the Throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

Revelation 5:6

"And I beheld, and lo in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures,, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having Seven Horns, and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

The horns in scripture 'Signify' Power. As you can see in Revelation chapter seventeen, the ten horns that were on the Beast were said to be ten kings which had received no power (when it was written) but would receive power to rule with the beast. For example, Kings symbolize Rule, and Horns symbolize Power (horns of an animal are a figure of his power). Likewise, these horns here in Revelation chapter five signify God's Power. Unlike Satan's rule in power, God's rule in power is omnipotent. The seven horns signify the 'totality' of his rule and power, and the seven eyes illustrate the 'totality' of the watch of the Holy Spirit. Eyes equate to seeing/knowing. Seeing everything and know everything! There is one Holy Spirit, but the number seven here is numeric symbolism illustrating His presence over the totality of the world. And the same application with the Seven eyes. It illustrates his 'total' watch over the earth where He sees all. The Holy Spirit of God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. The number seven illustrates the magnificent totality of this.

(7 horns - Omnipotent) The totality of His Power!
(7 spirits - Omnipresent) He is all (totality) Everywhere!
(7 eyes - Omniscient) He is all (totality) knowing/seeing!

Psalms 12:6

"The Words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified Seven Times."

Seven times illustrates 'complete' Purity. In other words, there is no impurities found God's word anywhere. Total infallibility of the Word. The spiritual significations of the number seven are seen all throughout scripture.

Revelation 5:1

"And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with Seven Seals."

This book was sealed totally so that none could open it but God, Himself. The number seven again signifying this total sealing.

Revelation 10:3

"and He cried with a loud voice, as when a Lion Roareth, and when He cried Seven thunders uttered their voices."

Seven thunders signifies the totality of God's voice. His Word will be complete, finished! The mystery is over. When that which is complete or perfect comes we will then know, even as we are known. We see the same principle as it speaks of the seventh trumpet sounding. It's the 'last' trumpet, the 'totality' of the trumpets accomplished.

Revelation 10:7

"but in the days of the voice of the Seventh Angel, when He shall begin to sound, the Mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the Prophets."

Again, the totality being illustrated by the number seven. It's finished, ended, all fulfilled, all complete! The Sabbath of Rest is Come. The labours in this world are over.

This is how the number seven is used in scripture to illustrate this spiritual significance. It shows us the totality of whatever is in view. This is also seen in multiples of the number such as seventy, seven hundred or seven thousand. A good example is when Jesus sent the seventy out two by two. They represented the totality of the Church. Much like the seven Churches of Asia do.

Now you need to reconsider about the seven mountains where woman sit. What do you think God is really talking about here. And no, this has nothing to do with RCC or Rome.

I find the above a concise and compelling response to the thread topic and I urge people to take the time to read and to understand what @TribulationSigns is trying to explain.

Revelation 17 is focussed more on the woman than it is focused on the beast that carries her. The woman has to be the Old and New Covenant Church under whatever beast (religious head) she served.

The woman must claim to be the Church of the Old and the New Covenants. Jesus did accuse the Pharisaical religious system with the blood of the innocent and they were the Church of their time within the Old Covenant age.

The Woman in the New Covenant must also project herself as the Church and yet be responsible for the blood of the innocent from the Cross until today.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Like I SAID, you have no clues with what you were babbling about. ...

I never said I knew anything, but YOU, and ONLY YOU know EVERYTHING. In fact, if GOD didn't know something, HE'd come to YOU.
All you have to do is read the Post above to see how much we ALL depend on your insights.
Thanks,
DaDad

Kalboon · Sep 15, 2018

Douggg said:
The reformers did not make the connection of the Antichrist as being the King of Israel (illegitimate) for a short while. They did, however, make a connection of the beast being the King of Rome (Roman Empire) though, which they thought to be in the person of the Pope.

The Pope can never become the King of Israel, embraced as such by the Jews.

It doesn't lessen the other achievements of the reformers, regarding getting out from under the RCC.

all the same person:
King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist
King of Roman Empire - the little horn (7th king), the beast (8th king)

You are onto something huge.
I really thought your post about AD95 6th beast is, if quite telling of St Alexander being the sixth king that is during John's thumbing of Revelation around 105AD to 110AD towards the end of his life.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Kalboon said:
The woman has to be the Old and New Covenant Church under whatever beast (religious head) she served. ...

"She" ain't a "religious head". Perhaps the creators of Superman have a better grasp on "Mystery Babylon" than people that guess at things.
Thanks,
DaDad

Kalboon · Sep 15, 2018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

Kalboon · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
"She" ain't a "religious head". Perhaps the creators of Superman have a better grasp on "Mystery Babylon" than people that guess at things.
Thanks,
DaDad

Good try and history does not lie. The only inquisitions of innocents are a one party one head show.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Kalboon said:
Good try and history does not lie. The only inquisitions of innocents are a one party one head show.

Ummmmm, what you say and what Daniel says are two different things. And as suggested, the creators of Superman perceived that "Clark Kent" worked at the DAILY PLANET, in the city of METROPOLIS -- but the church is ignorant.

So what's the connection? -- Are you aware of the history of the "metropolis" model? And if so, then you should realize that it's continued throughout history, and for a while it was illegal to sell an 18oz soft drink in NEW YORK CITY (Metropolis).

Or suppositions are sufficient for some.

Thanks,
DaDad

Kalboon · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
Ummmmm, what you say and what Daniel says are two different things. And as suggested, the creators of Superman perceived that "Clark Kent" worked at the DAILY PLANET, in the city of METROPOLIS -- but the church is ignorant.

So what's the connection? -- Are you aware of the history of the "metropolis" model? And if so, then you should realize that it's continued throughout history, and for a while it was illegal to sell an 18oz soft drink in NEW YORK CITY (Metropolis).

Or suppositions are sufficient for some.

Thanks,
DaDad

Ok

Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

Well-Known Member

Friend

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Friend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Similar threads