Did Jesus lie?

BNR32FAN

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Even if you believe that way; (which I do not) I am sure you agree that before the Cross, the Law of Moses was fully in effect. That COMMANDED all Jewish males to be in Jerusalem for 3 feasts per year: Passover, Shavuot (pentecost) and Tabernacles.

He did not pardon them. Read the text. He explained to the critics WHY their actions were NOT SINFUL in the first place. According to the Letter of the Law. He explained it by using the Pharisees' own logic.

I’m sorry my point was that He defended their picking grain on the Sabbath. Jesus defended the apostles before the cross. So I maintain my position that we are under the purpose of the law not the letter of the law.
 
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Dave-W

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I’m sorry my point was that He defended their picking grain on the Sabbath.
Yes. But how He defended it was not an excuse for breaking the Sabbath, but why they were NOT breaking the Sabbath in the first place.

His point was using a Rabbinic / Pharisaic tradition that a positive command (in this case the command to preserve life) trumped a negative command when they are in conflict. (in this case the prohibition of working on the Sabbath)
 
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RDKirk

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You guys are debating the edges.

Jesus "went secretly." That in itself was deception.

God is a warrior. God has zero problem with tactical deception in combat. He has bidden his people to practice tactical deception many times, and that's what this occasion was.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes. But how He defended it was not an excuse for breaking the Sabbath, but why they were NOT breaking the Sabbath in the first place.

His point was using a Rabbinic / Pharisaic tradition that a positive command (in this case the command to preserve life) trumped a negative command when they are in conflict. (in this case the prohibition of working on the Sabbath)

Yes I completely agree. A good example is Rehab was counted as righteous by lying to the king’s men in order to save the lives of the Israelite spies. I’m just trying to contemplate how Jesus said “I not go unto the feast” if He did go in secret. To me that suggests that perhaps He didn’t attend the feast with the rest of the Jews. But maybe because He also added “because the my time yet accomplish “ this could mean He wasn’t going to the feast at this particular time. Perhaps that is the answer.
 
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Dave-W

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I’m just trying to contemplate how Jesus said “I not go unto the feast” if He did go in secret. To me that suggests that perhaps He didn’t attend the feast with the rest of the Jews. But maybe because He also added “because the my time yet accomplish “ this could mean He wasn’t going to the feast at this particular time. Perhaps that is the answer.
At this time IMO is critical to understanding it. It was not yet his time to die but the leaders were starting to act very ugly. And toward the end of the festival He does show up.

John 7:10
But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.
 
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RDKirk

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At this time IMO is critical to understanding it. It was not yet his time to die but the leaders were starting to act very ugly. And toward the end of the festival He does show up.

John 7:10
But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Jesus went "in secret."

That is deception, regardless of the timing.
 
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fodare

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Either KJV or you look up the original language. The KJV is not as accurate as the original.
Uh what do you think the KJV translators did? You think you're better at understanding those languages? You have access to better copies? More manuscripts? More people, effort, time, prayer, study? No. They are way more qualified then you are. The King James Bible is better then the "originals" you're pretending still exist. Do your homework.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Uh what do you think the KJV translators did? You think you're better at understanding those languages? You have access to better copies? More manuscripts? More people, effort, time, prayer, study? No. They are way more qualified then you are. The King James Bible is better then the "originals" you're pretending still exist. Do your homework.
Actually yes we do have more available to us today then they did in the past. A lot more. Our understanding should be greater. For many reasons. We are in the later rain and we are told that the later rain is greater than the former rain. Daniel tells us that: "knowledge shall increase". Also each generation can build on the work and the understanding of the generations before them. Science gives a huge amount of understanding that helps us to better understand our Bible. Look at google earth for example. Even in just the past few years we have those photos available to us so that adds to understanding of Eden and Noah's flood. Also our understanding of History and archaeology is greater. We have more people out gathering more information. No one corners the market. God is infinite and there is no limit to what we can study and learn though the Word of God.

Of course this has nothing to do with what I said. But that is fine. I am happy to answer your questions.
 
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You need to go farther back than that. Go at least to the 2nd temple period and the use of Kiddish by the early Pharisees, and how that came to be part of the Passover Seder in the first century bc.

I think what's more pertinent is how food has a great deal of spiritual significance in general in Judaism. This is obvious just looking at how the pharisees react strongly to Jesus eating with sinners, for instance. Many scholars think the Lord's Supper is related more to Jesus' practice of fellowship with sinners, than it is to any specific religious ritual.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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John 7:6-10 NLT
Jesus replied, "Now is not the right time for me to go, but you can go anytime. [7] The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil. [8] You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." [9] After saying these things, Jesus remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view.

I think Jesus was lying. Therefore he sinned. Therefore he is not the perfect sacrifice. What is your opinion?
Edit. It seems that some translations differ. E.g. the kjv has a "yet".
Maybe it wasn't to time for him to go with his brothers. He went but staying out of the public view. His brothers wanted him to go as to be a public figure. That wasn't what Jesus was trying to do.
 
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RDKirk

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Maybe it wasn't to time for him to go with his brothers. He went but staying out of the public view. His brothers wanted him to go as to be a public figure. That wasn't what Jesus was trying to do.

He still went "in secret" and that is still deception.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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He still went "in secret" and that is still deception.
He did go in secret, because they could have took him and crucified him before his time. I trust that Jesus knew when it was time for him to go to the places that he went. He also hid himself in John 8:59 because he wasn't suppose to die that way.
John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds
 
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RDKirk

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He did go in secret, because they could have took him and crucified him before his time. I trust that Jesus knew when it was time for him to go to the places that he went. He also hid himself in John 8:59 because he wasn't suppose to die that way.
John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds

The point is that Jesus did, in fact, practice deception.

Tactical deception was always God's acceptable practice.
 
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RDKirk

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No, it is sovereign discretion.

Okay, fine, I can go with "sovereign discretion" as well.

Although in the OT, God uses His sovereign discretion to allow His people to deceive the enemy on several occasions.
 
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Okay, fine, I can go with "sovereign discretion" as well.

Although in the OT, God uses His sovereign discretion to allow His people to deceive the enemy on several occasions.

A couple of people come to mind...Rahab and Samson.

In the case of both they were sinners like you and I. Rahab was a gentile, and a prostitute, for her to use deception by lying should not come as a surprise. Joshua sent spies, and God providentially made it so they went to this particular woman's house, which led to the preservation of the nation of Israel. We should remember, all sinners have lied to deceive. But...

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, never sinned. Deception involves lies, an intent to deceive, to trick, to fool, it is devious behavior, it is sinful behavior. In the book of Hebrews we read "it is impossible for God to lie". This is because His nature is pure and Holy, to lie would be to contradict His own nature, and it would mean He is less than God. So it is important to maintain a Creator - creation distinction when considering the actions of sinful humans and the actions of a Holy God. Also the sovereign free will of God, by which He is under no obligation to reveal anything to anyone, but does so out of mercy for the purposes of accomplishing His will.
 
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RDKirk

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A couple of people come to mind...Rahab and Samson.

In the case of both they were sinners like you and I. Rahab was a gentile, and a prostitute, for her to use deception by lying should not come as a surprise. Joshua sent spies, and God providentially made it so they went to this particular woman's house, which led to the preservation of the nation of Israel. We should remember, all sinners have lied to deceive. But...

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, never sinned. Deception involves lies, an intent to deceive, to trick, to fool, it is devious behavior, it is sinful behavior. In the book of Hebrews we read "it is impossible for God to lie". This is because His nature is pure and Holy, to lie would be to contradict His own nature, and it would mean He is less than God. So it is important to maintain a Creator - creation distinction when considering the actions of sinful humans and the actions of a Holy God. Also the sovereign free will of God, by which He is under no obligation to reveal anything to anyone, but does so out of mercy for the purposes of accomplishing His will.

No word from God is void.

The reason it's impossible for God Himself to lie is because creation instantly reshapes itself to His pronouncements, so that whatever He says becomes the truth as He says it.

Jesus did, indeed, deceive His brothers, but the error you're making is thinking that deception in general is a sin, which is not the case. Tactical deception against the enemy not a sin, but is actually lauded by God and even directed by God.

Deception becomes a sin when you deceive someone to whom you owe the truth, and that is how it is presented and practiced throughout scripture.
 
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