Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

Not David · Sep 15, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
One can follow the letter of the law while missing the spirit of the law. One can become so obsessed with the mechanics as to miss the purpose. God is not so limited that he must physically transform the materials in order to work its purpose in us. He is not so devoid of power as to be able to transform only one manner of substance and not another.

I regard wine as the material of our Lord's choice for no reason beyond the fact that it has a color somewhat reminiscent of blood, and I regard it as obviously a symbol. I will take my juice fresh, and you will take yours spoiled, and if that's a problem for you, then you can mock me from the sidelines until you grow hoarse. I don't care. You must understand that I would not be inclined to take criticism of the freshness of my juice from someone who deliberately spoils his own before drinking it.

The problem is that the traditional churches have turned a symbol into something that, being not God is regarded as God all the same. If you take a common physical object and call it God, and treat it and think of it as God (and not just as a symbol), then it had better actually be God, or else it must be an idol. I hope, for your sake, that you are right, and that you are not an idolater who worships a cup of wine and cracker that tastes and smells like a cup of wine and cracker and upsets the stomach of people with Celiac disease (proving that it is, in fact, a cracker).

If I continue to think of it as a symbol, then I highly doubt that my life will be adversely affected by it if I am wrong. We both honor the Lord's communion. We both die, all the same. At the final judgment I am not sure that I will be harshly condemned for a case of mistaken chemistry, but if I were guilty of idolatry then it would be a different matter. My position, if it were wrong, would not be so much of a problem as a matter of trivia. Your position, if wrong, would be a disaster.

I believe you are wrong.

It's not what I believe, it's what the Church has always taught until the Reformation.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

Here are some CF threads I created that defends the Lord's use of grape juice or unfermented wine.

6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2018

Alcoholic beverages are notorious for destroying people's lives. That is the fruits of alcohol. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2018

I remember, kids at my high school would get smash drunk almost every weekend. This was the norm for them. But a life like that is not filled with a life of being sober and godly in the Lord.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Alcoholic beverages are notorious for destroying people's lives. That is the fruits of alcohol. However, Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Dave-W said:
The scene was a Passover celebration. So regular bread was off the table (so to speak) meaning they used matzoh. (a cracker)

Since many evangelical and most fundamentalist denominations consider alcohol use to be sinful, they use grape juice instead of fermented wine.

I see no where in the Bible where it is sinful. Abusing it, yes.

1 Timothy 5:
23 no longer be drinking water, but a little wine be using, because of thy stomach and of thine often infirmities;
24 of certain men the sins are manifest beforehand, leading before to judgment, and certain also they follow after; 25 in like manner also the right works are manifest beforehand, and those that are otherwise are not able to be hid.

But then the caveat to that:

Ephesians 5:
15 See, then, how exactly ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil; 17 because of this become not fools, but — understanding what [is] the will of the Lord,
18 and be not drunk with wine, in which is dissoluteness,
but be filled in the Spirit, [Jeremiah 51:7 Revelation 17:2]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...elation-symbolizing-the-lake-of-fire.8081196/

Revelation 17:2 [Jeremiah 51:7]
“with Whom the kings of the land committed fornication,
and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of Her fornication.”

Jeremiah 51:7
Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD's hand,
That made all the earth drunk.
The nations drank Her wine;
Therefore the nations are deranged.

FireDragon76 · Sep 15, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
For what it's worth, what was used at the Last Supper probably wasn't the hard cracker like matzah that you can buy in the kosher section of your local supermarket, that is specifically the sort of matzah popular among the Ashkenazi. Other forms of matzah exist, such as among the Sephardi and Mizrahi communities.

View attachment 241070

-CryptoLutheran

Looks like chapati bread.

icxn · Sep 15, 2018

The Last Supper, which took place Thursday night, was not a Passover meal. According to the instructions given in Exodus 12:6-8, the Passover and the use of unleavened bread begins with the slaying of the lamb. This took place on Friday, both the type and the reality (Christ's death on the Cross). Therefore it is more likely that Christ used leavened bread for the sacrament of Holy Communion. At least this is the Orthodox position and the reason we have been using leavened bread from the beginning.

Loren T. · Sep 15, 2018

Rubiks said:
The bread that Jesus ate was most likely unleavened (without yeast). Grape juice had not been invented at that point in history.

Isn't grape juice just unfermented wine? I'm pretty sure they had grape juice. With no refrigerator, it slowly becomes wine...

Mountainmike · Sep 15, 2018

I do not think here is the place to argue transubstantiation so I will not defend it here.

But I will comment on the clear context of this thread: grape juice or wine...

And I see the problem as one of distrusting or disrespecting our Lord. He says wine, so who are others to overrrule him?

Those who do overrule him inevitably justify with the phrase " I think...." so then interpret their own way: having lost tradition , faith handed down that gives it meaning, and replacing it with their own.

Eg Your phrase "I regard wine as the material of our Lord's choice for no reason beyond the fact that it has a color somewhat reminiscent of blood"

In summary "You regard" then used earthly reason to disregard our Lords ordinance. - and as I said , many of those who beat the only scripture drum most loudly, are those to take the greatest liberties with it!

I trust our Lord. He says wine. I do wine.

St. Paul says " some are ill, some have died" for profaning the Eucharist. So " doing it right" is clearly important, and it is far more than a symbol.
Anyone Deciding they know better is a dangerous road.

nonaeroterraqueous said:
One can follow the letter of the law while missing the spirit of the law. One can become so obsessed with the mechanics as to miss the purpose. God is not so limited that he must physically transform the materials in order to work its purpose in us. He is not so devoid of power as to be able to transform only one manner of substance and not another.

I regard wine as the material of our Lord's choice for no reason beyond the fact that it has a color somewhat reminiscent of blood, and I regard it as obviously a symbol. I will take my juice fresh, and you will take yours spoiled, and if that's a problem for you, then you can mock me from the sidelines until you grow hoarse. I don't care. You must understand that I would not be inclined to take criticism of the freshness of my juice from someone who deliberately spoils his own before drinking it.

The problem is that the traditional churches have turned a symbol into something that, being not God is regarded as God all the same. If you take a common physical object and call it God, and treat it and think of it as God (and not just as a symbol), then it had better actually be God, or else it must be an idol. I hope, for your sake, that you are right, and that you are not an idolater who worships a cup of wine and cracker that tastes and smells like a cup of wine and cracker and upsets the stomach of people with Celiac disease (proving that it is, in fact, a cracker).

If I continue to think of it as a symbol, then I highly doubt that my life will be adversely affected by it if I am wrong. We both honor the Lord's communion. We both die, all the same. At the final judgment I am not sure that I will be harshly condemned for a case of mistaken chemistry, but if I were guilty of idolatry then it would be a different matter. My position, if it were wrong, would not be so much of a problem as a matter of trivia. Your position, if wrong, would be a disaster.

I believe you are wrong.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I see no where in the Bible where it is sinful. Abusing it, yes.

1 Timothy 5:
23 no longer be drinking water, but a little wine be using, because of thy stomach and of thine often infirmities;
24 of certain men the sins are manifest beforehand, leading before to judgment, and certain also they follow after; 25 in like manner also the right works are manifest beforehand, and those that are otherwise are not able to be hid.

But then the caveat to that:

Ephesians 5:
15 See, then, how exactly ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil; 17 because of this become not fools, but — understanding what [is] the will of the Lord,
18 and be not drunk with wine, in which is dissoluteness,
but be filled in the Spirit, [Jeremiah 51:7 Revelation 17:2]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...elation-symbolizing-the-lake-of-fire.8081196/

Revelation 17:2 [Jeremiah 51:7]
“with Whom the kings of the land committed fornication,
and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of Her fornication.”

Jeremiah 51:7
Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD's hand,
That made all the earth drunk.
The nations drank Her wine;
Therefore the nations are deranged.

I used to be an Abstentionist (Meaning: You had a liberty drink soberly for your own enjoyment), but after much study on the topic of alcohol in Scripture and learning about the reality of alcoholic beverages, I have switched in becoming a Prohibitionist (Meaning: Alcoholic beverages are forbidden to drink for enjoyment. The only exception is if such substance is used for serious medical reasons, like: To ease extreme pain, or to help calm a serious upset stomach when no other remedy is available, etc.).

Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things that are full of life and things that are good. If you were to take alcohol and put it in a cup and then put some dirty coins in there, the alcohol would clean the coins. If you were to put a small piece of fruit or meat in the alcohol, it would dry it out. The alcohol has no understanding of being outside your body or inside your body. Soon as it enters the body, it does the same thing. It seeks to dry out things and to destroy your living tissue. But it is a good thing we have an immune system that can fight back so as to survive. In other words, alcohol is a very minor poison that your body can counter effects of whereby you will not die. But the abuse of this poison can easily kill you because of it's harmful effects.

Even moderate drinking can damage the brain according to a particular research study:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...inking-can-damage-the-brain-claim-researchers

The body is the temple of the Holy Ghost.
Do you think God wants us to hurt our temple?
Does God want us to be sober or drunk?
After one glass of alcohol, you are less sober than you were before.
The Bible says repeatedly for us to be sober minded.

20 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Source Used:
http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Stringfellow_Hawke · Sep 15, 2018

I’ll be present for my first communion for my church the first of October. I assume they’ll have the cracker and grape juice.

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

Why not nachos and Pepsi?

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I used to be an Abstentionist (Meaning: You had a liberty drink soberly for your own enjoyment), but after much study on the topic of alcohol in Scripture and learning about the reality of alcoholic beverages, I have switched in becoming a Prohibitionist (Meaning: Alcoholic beverages are forbidden to drink for enjoyment. The only exception is if such substance is used for serious medical reasons, like: To ease extreme pain, or to help calm a serious upset stomach when no other remedy is available, etc.).

Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things that are full of life and things that are good. If you were to take alcohol and put it in a cup and then put some dirty coins in there, the alcohol would clean the coins. If you were to put a small piece of fruit or meat in the alcohol, it would dry it out. The alcohol has no understanding of being outside your body or inside your body. Soon as it enters the body, it does the same thing. It seeks to dry out things and to destroy your living tissue. But it is a good thing we have an immune system that can fight back so as to survive. In other words, alcohol is a very minor poison that your body can counter effects of whereby you will not die. But the abuse of this poison can easily kill you because of it's harmful effects.

Even moderate drinking can damage the brain according to a particular research study:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...inking-can-damage-the-brain-claim-researchers

The body is the temple of the Holy Ghost.
Do you think God wants us to hurt our temple?
Does God want us to be sober or drunk?
After one glass of alcohol, you are less sober than you were before.
The Bible says repeatedly for us to be sober minded.

20 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Source Used:
http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

The reason alcoholic beverages were developed by men is because it is a form of preservative. "New wine" i.e. grape juice will spoil within days if not refrigerated. Before the days of refrigeration, new wine would be a luxury that didn't last long. But to make the wine last long, they let it ferment and the alcohol lets it keep for a long time, as we all know.

In the first 100 years or so of the USA people couldn't drink water because most would get sick since the water was not clean enough to drink safely. So they drank beer. Beers, actually. Mostly root beers. Not like what we call root beer, but beer made from roots and root vegetables, sometimes also beer as we know it today. It was much, much lower in alcohol, about 1-1.5%, so getting drunk was hard to do on it, and even kids drank it as the safe way to get their water intake.

Alcohol in and of itself is not bad and has been a very good thing for men throughout the ages. Abusing it is no different from abusing anything else. We can abuse caffeine, sugar, fat/grease/oil, or any other edible substances. None of those things are "bad" per se. All can be used in a very good and positive and healthy way.

To demonize alcohol because it is abused by some is irrational. I grew up in a Church that all but demonized it - they pretty much considered it a sin but nobody would ever quite say "drinking alcohol is a sin". I think they knew deep down.

About the best argument against a Christian drinking alcohol that I can think of is the stumbling block argument. But aside from that, consumption of alcohol in and of itself is absolutely not a sin.

Rubiks · Sep 15, 2018

ArmenianJohn said:
Why not nachos and Pepsi?

Sounds awesome! Unless you have diabetes.

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

Rubiks said:
Sounds awesome! Unless you have diabetes.

Then again, grape juice is a no-no for diabetics as well

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Alcoholic beverages are notorious for destroying people's lives. That is the fruits of alcohol. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

The notoriety of alcohol is based on societal whims. Society decided to demonize alcohol for the damage it has done to people yet the same society celebrates excessive sugar consumption despite that it has done far more damage to far more people, including children. In fact, many people who claim to be Christians and are conservatives will unabashedly support the rights of businesses to poison people by pumping excessive sugars into foods with no government regulation.

"Notoriety" is a poor reason for irrationally banning a substance from the diets of people under the guise that the substance is somehow "sinful".

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

It seems the main premise for using grape juice instead of wine is that wine (alcoholic) is a problem for those who have alcoholism. Some even are guessing that use of alcoholic wine has contributed to people becoming alcoholics.

Meanwhile, nobody questions the effect of sugary grape juice on those who have a sugar addiction and diabetes. How many have become sugar addicts from the grape juice? How many have developed diabetes from drinking communion grape juice?

Why are so many people concerned about the effects of alcohol when we know that the effects of sugar are far more damaging to far more people (including CHILDREN) in our society?

The answer is simple: people have a societal aversion to alcohol that they don't have towards sugar. In reality, sugar is the bigger demon. Sugar kills far more people. Alcohol has the disadvantage of making people's behavior more out of control, but far fewer people have problems with consuming alcohol than they do with sugar.

Sugar is poison. Go to a church that refuses to use alcoholic wine on the basis that it is "sinful" will gladly serve pastries and desserts along with coffee with bowls and bowls of pure sugar to everyone.

I have no problem with a church using grape juice. It fits the Biblical account, it is "fruit of the vine", and if they feel it helps to avoid being a stumbling block then that is understandable. But I don't like that they take this to the extreme of saying that alcohol is some kind of evil demonic substance while ignoring the fact that sugar is the far more dangerous and damaging substance.

Loren T. · Sep 15, 2018

ArmenianJohn said:
Sugar is poison. Go to a church that refuses to use alcoholic wine on the basis that it is "sinful" will gladly serve pastries and desserts along with coffee with bowls and bowls of pure sugar to everyone.

I'm not a drinker, but I have always found this ironic, too. In churches where a glass of wine would be practically a mortal sin, many of the people are terribly overweight. When was the last time you heard a sermon on gluttony?

ArmenianJohn · Sep 15, 2018

Loren T. said:
I'm not a drinker, but I have always found this ironic, too. In churches where a glass of wine would be practically a mortal sin, many of the people are terribly overweight. When was the last time you heard a sermon on gluttony?

This is what makes me so disappointed and deflated about most Churches, Loren. It really, really bothers me.

Well, I guess what really bothers me is the reason behind it. The reason behind it is that there are certain things that are easy to pick on while there are other things that are very difficult to pick on, and preachers tend to tickle the ears of their congregations by hammering on the easy targets and completely avoiding the difficult targets.

Easy targets are: alcohol, smoking, homosexuality, adultery (as in cheating on spouse), sloth (laziness), and abortion. These are easy targets because fewer people - smaller or minority of the general population - have to face these things.

Difficult targets are: gluttony (including sugar abuse), adultery (as in being remarried after divorce or other more socially acceptable forms), failure to love others, failure to sacrifice to others, materialism/mammon worship. These are things that too many people - a majority - are facing problems with on a daily basis and failing.

So of course, we hear how evil homosexuality is because gays are an easy target, since most people aren't gay. But we rarely, if ever, hear about how it's sinful to be mean to gay or other people. We hear how alcohol is evil, but not how sugar is evil. We hear how it's a sin to be lazy and not work, but never how it's a sin to spend so lavishly on ourselves while not helping the needy more and more.

And so we wind up with silly debates about alcoholic wine vs. grape juice. We are silly for debating it. We are silly for worrying about alcoholism while pretending diabetes doesn't exist (or the results of diabetes - heart disease, circulatory problems and amputations, etc.).

Strong in Him · Sep 16, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

The bread that Jesus used was unleavened bread, not like the bread we have today.
I guess that people use non alcoholic wine/juice out of concern for any former alcoholics, or because they don't allow alcohol on their premises.

But over the Lord's Supper, almost no one "follows the Bible."
Jesus wanted to share a final Passover meal with his followers before his crucifixion. It was a meal, and each element symbolised their time of slavery in Egypt and their escape, e.g lamb, bitter herbs, unleavened bread and so on. They ate it reclining round a table. Jesus and the Apostles also wore robes and sandals and probably spoke Greek or Aramaic.
Even if a church had a weekly meal/love feast/Lord's Supper, it's almost certain they wouldn't do it like that. Most churches have way more than 12 members, so they need to have it in a way that ensures that everyone can take part. They would need someone to volunteer to cook lamb and make unleavened bread each week.

Also, when it comes to communion/the Eucharist/Lord's Supper, most churches insist that only an ordained person can preside/officiate. That is not Scriptural. We are told in Acts that the believers broke bread together, not that they needed someone to officiate over that, or that it had to be a certain Apostle.

So I would say that as no one celebrates this meal as Jesus and his followers did - wearing robes and sandals, reclining round a table in an upper room, eating lamb and herbs - no one "follows the Bible" in this regard.

Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

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