Are nudist church services morally acceptable?

fat wee robin · Sep 15, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
If we had church in the garden before the fall, YES. But, since the fall, it isn't appropriate. But, it happens in Virginia.

I am not sure that we were ever totally naked ,or running around in a 'garden '.
I think that we were created in a very sophisticated massive creation ,with interacting laws ,much like the best of science can create ,and consisting of different worlds with different types of lifestyle .

fat wee robin · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
To understand this, you would have to understand the entire mindset of non-sexual nudism.

Basically, our society links nudity with sex, to the extent that most people think of them as one-and-the-same. But they are not the same. You can have each without the other.

Knowing this (or being willing to learn it) liberates people from the "strip-club" mentality and inappropriate content-steeped attitudes of crude society. People come to understand that nudity is simply doing whatever you do, only without clothes.

Especially for Christians, it cleans your mind and opens your heart.

Not even the most primitive tribes in Africa ,where it is boiling hot ,go without some kind of covering for genitals . We are not our bodies ,we are spirit and our bodies allow us to live here on the earth .
Humanity is progressing backwards to the point of the rebellion in Heaven ,not being able to tolerate any kind of restriction on their physical senses , and actions ,and breaking the command not to eat of the forbidden fruit .
Anyone who can imagine participating in this as a Christian , is deluded .

On the other hand in a limited way especially in a society which seems split ,on one hand inappropriate contento every where ,and puritanism on the other ,maybe some private nudist places are a reaction .
The most spiritually balanced people, in less materialistic societies are not so extreme as the U.S., which has always emphasised personal egotistical satisfaction on all levels , and have no need of display, either of nudism or peep shows or inappropriate contento ,which only indicates a messed up culture ,caused by human excess of ego and of bad religion .I emphasise the last part as being a great problem .
If children are allowed to be free with their bodies as very young children ,and have healthy boundaries with adults when they are Young they will not need to 'display' themselves . It is sign of 'sickness', that an adult would ever consider displaying themselves in front of children .

fat wee robin · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
As a matter of fact, the men do stand there (and everywhere else) without erections.
You don't have to take my word for it; go and see for yourself.
(or talk with other nudists)

I know it's difficult to imagine people being nude without overt arousal, but truth is on my side.
In the 13 years my family and I have visited there, I have only seen 3 erections:

One was a new guy at a dance; the owner told him to go elsewhere until he "regained control";

One was my son, and I told him to cover it with his towel until it subsided;

One was me, after a nap. Draped a towel over my shoulder; didn't last long.

If it conflicts with your conscience, don't do it. Same for alcohol, dancing, or whatever.
If it weakened my faith or my relationship with God, I wouldn't do it.

Very dangerous

Archivist said:
Sure, scripture tells us that Paul was fishing naked. It was actually common practice at that time. One fisherman would be naked so he could easily get in and out of the water to work the nets.

This is what people do when they can’t engage in reasonable discussion—they just start throwing insults.

Naked ,without any under garment ,I don't think so, as total nakedness was considered scandalous by Jewish people .

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
I mean do you really think that if God did not want the prospect of priests' nakedness being seen due to stairs that he would be ok with an entire congregation, including the priest/pastor, being naked during the worship service?

If you live in a nudest colony, I can appreciate how the people would not think about it one way or the other because being naked is the norm in that place.

When I thought about it this morning, I realized that if I set up a church in a remote area where I was reaching out to people who basically lived naked and that was the norm, I would be more interested in sharing the gospel with them than trying to get them to wear clothes. This does not mean I think that God is wrong for wanting people to be clothed, but that you have to reach people where they are. To me, this is different though than knowlingly teaching people that something is ok when it contradicts the Bible. At that point it becomes more of a defiance thing.

My understanding of this commandment is: in the Egyptian religion, the priests led the worship services while nude, from an elevated position. God wanted the newly-released Israelites to clearly understand the differences between Him and the Egyptian gods, and to not get them confused with each other. This commandment draws a clear line between Egyptian worship and God's detailed ordinances for the priests.

In other words, God concern wasn't nudity, it was separation from the Egyptian religion.

I agree with focusing on worshipping God rather than worrying about introducing clothes when introducing Christianity to nude people. But I disagree with your statement that nudity contradicts the Bible.

If you use a word-search on Bible software (as several here have done), you will find 40 - 90 references for "naked" and "nakedness", depending on the version.
While most of these verses speak of negative situations, the nudity is not the problem. The problems are adultery (including worshipping other gods), incest, spiritual emptiness, vulnerability to deception, defeat and capture in battle, poverty, disrespecting parents, and (of course) disobedience in Eden.

Nowhere does God command people to not be naked (other than the priests during worship, as above).

Yes, He clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins, to replace their woefully-inadequate fig leaves.
They were about to be cast out into the now-fallen world, and needed protection from "thorns and thistles", abrasion, wild animals, and cold.
Nowhere did He say "Don't let me catch you without these clothes on!"
(Revelation 16:15 symbolizes spiritual unpreparedness as being "naked").

The clothes were their idea. God simply provided what they needed for the hostile environment.

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

fat wee robin said:
Not even the most primitive tribes in Africa ,where it is boiling hot ,go without some kind of covering for genitals .

On the other hand in a limited way especially in a society which seems split ,on one hand inappropriate contento every where ,and puritanism on the other ,maybe some private nudist places are a reaction .
The most spiritually balanced people, in less materialistic societies are not so extreme as the U.S., which has always emphasised personal egotistical satisfaction on all levels , and have no need of display, either of nudism or peep shows or inappropriate contento ,which only indicates a messed up culture ,caused by human excess of ego and of bad religion .

If children are allowed to be free with their bodies as very young children ,and have healthy boundaries with adults when they are Young they will not need to 'display' themselves . It is sign of 'sickness', that an adult would ever consider displaying themselves in front of children .

Actually, there are (and have been) "primitive" tribes in both Africa and South America who live with their genitals exposed most of the time. They also wear minor pieces of clothing, mostly for decoration.

Most European countries have more-relaxed attitudes towards nudity than the USA, and these countries are considered "enlightened".

My children have been raised as nudists from the very beginning, but they have always understood that clothing is required in many situations, and have not "displayed" themselves inappropriately. I wouldn't want my kids to be harassed by a "flasher", but kids have no problems or ill effects by seeing nude adults in everyday situations.

Do you have children? Have they ever seen you nude?

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

fat wee robin said:
Very dangerous

"Dangerous"? How?

There's nothing dangerous about naked old men in a church service.

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
Actually, there are (and have been) "primitive" tribes in both Africa and South America who live with their genitals exposed most of the time. They also wear minor pieces of clothing, mostly for decoration.

Most European countries have more-relaxed attitudes towards nudity than the USA, and these countries are considered "enlightened".

My children have been raised as nudists from the very beginning, but they have always understood that clothing is required in many situations, and have not "displayed" themselves inappropriately. I wouldn't want my kids to be harassed by a "flasher", but kids have no problems or ill effects by seeing nude adults in everyday situations.

Do you have children? Have they ever seen you nude?

I have been waiting to see a quote from the bible that endorses nudity, or where God, Jesus or even a single one if His angels are described as naked.
The disciples would baptize several thousand people in one day---nowhere does it mention that there were 3000 naked people running around. Last time that happened, Moses had the Levi's kill them all!
I know what you're going to say--it wasn't because they were naked, but because they had worshiped another god---whatever--funny that whenever nakedness is mentioned in the bible, it is always in a negative light and never once is nakedness mentioned in a positive light. Except in the gsrde4n and then Adam and Eve didn't know they were naked. Adam and Eve covered themselves up long before there was a curse pronounced on them and the land.

fat wee robin · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
Actually, there are (and have been) "primitive" tribes in both Africa and South America who live with their genitals exposed most of the time. They also wear minor pieces of clothing, mostly for decoration.

Most European countries have more-relaxed attitudes towards nudity than the USA, and these countries are considered "enlightened".

My children have been raised as nudists from the very beginning, but they have always understood that clothing is required in many situations, and have not "displayed" themselves inappropriately. I wouldn't want my kids to be harassed by a "flasher", but kids have no problems or ill effects by seeing nude adults in everyday situations.

Do you have children? Have they ever seen you nude?

No ,but I know that I would not wish under any circumstances to have seen my parents nude .God's creation is based on a natural hierarchical law ,and parents
hanging around with their children in the buff, destroys the natural order of barriers which is neccessary to build healthy relationships .
You seem to think that because it is what you want that is it is good ,which shows a too great attachment to your feelings .This means that you cannot put yourself in the place of your children who are individuals ,and who might not
'feel 'like you , but have no way to express their discomfort ,and may later suffer the results of this exposure .
You give examples of primitive peoples and other societies ,but if we had lived like them ,we would still be like them , primitive and dying out .

All I do know is that some children (now grown ) I know of , feel abused by
seeing their mother nude in the bath ,and cannot see her as they should .

akaDaScribe · Sep 15, 2018

Baby Alice said:
Though this only apples if you believe Adam and eve were real and not just a moral story.

Even if you thought it was just a moral story, how would that change what it says? I know you said you are new to the faith. I give you this advice with the utmost sincerity. Be careful not to become a buffet Christian. That is to say a Christian who picks and chooses what they like and discards what they don't like. This is a dangerous trend occurring in this generation. We as a society and generation are deceiving ourselves into thinking we can define the truth through personal preferences and gaining consensus. It may make us feel better about our opinions, but it does not make them true. It is an extremely easy pattern to fall into.

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

mmksparbud said:
I have been waiting to see a quote from the bible that endorses nudity, or where God, Jesus or even a single one if His angels are described as naked.
The disciples would baptize several thousand people in one day---nowhere does it mention that there were 3000 naked people running around. Last time that happened, Moses had the Levi's kill them all!
I know what you're going to say--it wasn't because they were naked, but because they had worshiped another god---whatever--funny that whenever nakedness is mentioned in the bible, it is always in a negative light and never once is nakedness mentioned in a positive light. Except in the gsrde4n and then Adam and Eve didn't know they were naked. Adam and Eve covered themselves up long before there was a curse pronounced on them and the land.

The "naked" people who were killed when Moses brought down the Ten Commandments were worshipping other gods. That's a very big deal to God. The First and Second commandments show that. Which Commandment(s) forbid nudity?

While most of the references to nudity are associated with negative events, some are neutral, and a few are positive: (NIV)

1 Samuel 19:24
He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

Job 1:21
and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.”

Ecclesiastes 5:15
Everyone comes naked from their mother’s womb, and as everyone comes, so they depart. They take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands.

Isaiah 20:1-2
In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it— 2 at that time the Lord spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, “Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet.” And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.

Ezekiel 16:7
I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.

Mark 14:51-52
A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

Baby Alice · Sep 15, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
Even if you thought it was just a moral story, how would that change what it says? I know you said you are new to the faith. I give you this advice with the utmost sincerity. Be careful not to become a buffet Christian. That is to say a Christian who picks and chooses what they like and discards what they don't like. This is a dangerous trend occurring in this generation. We as a society and generation are deceiving ourselves into thinking we can define the truth through personal preferences and gaining consensus. It may make us feel better about our opinions, but it does not make them true. It is an extremely easy pattern to fall into.

Even so, all this says is that he gave them clothes made from animal skins, isn't it more likely that this was to keep them warm than to cover their bodies which he had just created?

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
The "naked" people who were killed when Moses brought down the Ten Commandments were worshipping other gods. That's a very big deal to God. The First and Second commandments show that. Which Commandment(s) forbid nudity?

While most of the references to nudity are associated with negative events, some are neutral, and a few are positive: (NIV)

1 Samuel 19:24
He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

Job 1:21
and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.”

Ecclesiastes 5:15
Everyone comes naked from their mother’s womb, and as everyone comes, so they depart. They take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands.

Isaiah 20:1-2
In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it— 2 at that time the Lord spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, “Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet.” And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.

Ezekiel 16:7
I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.

Mark 14:51-52
A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

And just exactly which one of those says it is good to be naked and is endorsed by God as a way if life and worship?

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

mmksparbud said:
And just exactly which one of those says it is good to be naked and is endorsed by God as a way if life and worship?

Exactly which one of those says it is bad to be naked and is cursed by God as a way of life and worship?

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2018

Baby Alice said:
Even so, all this says is that he gave them clothes made from animal skins, isn't it more likely that this was to keep them warm than to cover their bodies which he had just created?

The weather had not changed yet--not until after the flood. There was no severe cold nor heat yet. There had been no rain, just dew to water the planet. Adam and Eve had only made "aprons" for themselves--just to cover the essentials--God covered up the rest of them. Leaves could not stand up to labor and they would have been naked again and had to keep using leaves. God made them more durable clothing that covered more and was more durable. He could have left them naked, if He had thought it was OK.

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
Exactly which one of those says it is bad to be naked and is cursed by God as a way if life and worship?

All of them put together with all the rest of what the bible days and the fact that never once did He say it was OK to be naked--not from the very fall of man and not into the New Jerusalem.

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

fat wee robin said:
No ,but I know that I would not wish under any circumstances to have seen my parents nude .God's creation is based on a natural hierarchical law ,and parents hanging around with their children in the buff, destroys the natural order of barriers which is neccessary to build healthy relationships .

All I do know is that some children (now grown ) I know of , feel abused by
seeing their mother nude in the bath ,and cannot see her as they should .

I think your wish is very sad.

I saw my parents nude from the time I was born until they died.
It was just a normal, everyday part of life.

They taught me a lot (of course), and part of that was that the human body is not shameful or evil, but that it can be misused in all kinds of ways.

Likewise, my kids have seen their mom and me nude from the beginning. They show no ill effects, and certainly don't feel abused by it. As I have mentioned, they observe traditional sexual morals, and have no interest in inappropriate content. Kind of unusual for young men in their twenties.

Darkhorse · Sep 15, 2018

mmksparbud said:
He could have left them naked, if He had thought it was OK.

They would not have survived, and He knew it...

2Timothy2:15 · Sep 15, 2018

Maria Sweet said:
Veils seem a bit archaic to me, but at least they're better than being nude while in a house of God!

This is not the "house" of GOD. This is a perverted abomination that has nothing to do with Jesus.

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
They would not have survived, and He knew it...

Why? The weather was fine, there was plenty of food, we can survive today--apparently--without any clothes--they would have survived just fine. There were no fluctuations in weather until the flood--not even rain yet. Clothes were not really needed back then if there are tribes today that can survive without them.

akaDaScribe · Sep 15, 2018

Darkhorse said:
My understanding of this commandment is: in the Egyptian religion, the priests led the worship services while nude, from an elevated position. God wanted the newly-released Israelites to clearly understand the differences between Him and the Egyptian gods, and to not get them confused with each other. This commandment draws a clear line between Egyptian worship and God's detailed ordinances for the priests.

In other words, God concern wasn't nudity, it was separation from the Egyptian religion.

You are suggesting that God only wanted the priests to not be potentially exposed because Egyptian priests were completely naked and he wanted to be different, but he still had stairs even though he wanted to be different?

Even if that was true, why would you want to promote being more like a pagan priest than a priest of God?

I agree with focusing on worshipping God rather than worrying about introducing clothes when introducing Christianity to nude people. But I disagree with your statement that nudity contradicts the Bible.

If you use a word-search on Bible software (as several here have done), you will find 40 - 90 references for "naked" and "nakedness", depending on the version.
While most of these verses speak of negative situations, the nudity is not the problem. The problems are adultery (including worshipping other gods), incest, spiritual emptiness, vulnerability to deception, defeat and capture in battle, poverty, disrespecting parents, and (of course) disobedience in Eden.

Nowhere does God command people to not be naked (other than the priests during worship, as above).

Yes, He clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins, to replace their woefully-inadequate fig leaves.
They were about to be cast out into the now-fallen world, and needed protection from "thorns and thistles", abrasion, wild animals, and cold.
Nowhere did He say "Don't let me catch you without these clothes on!"
(Revelation 16:15 symbolizes spiritual unpreparedness as being "naked").

The clothes were their idea. God simply provided what they needed for the hostile environment.

Click to expand...

Throughout the Bible nakedness has negative connotations and a way of expressing shame. I can see picking your battles so to speak as I stated above, but your efforts to justify it are causing you find ways to overcome evidence contrary to your position rather than considering that it's not something the Bible supports.

If a Christian celebrates pass over and serves ham with leavened bread, I don't think that makes that person an unbeliever, but it would be irresponsible to promote that practice.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Are nudist church services morally acceptable?

Are nudist religious services morally acceptable?

Yes

No

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