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.....You cannot say that people like Al Quaeda or Daesh are not Muslims. Their actions , organisations and atrocities are determined and conceived by Muslim precepts and readings of the Quran and the Sunnah.

The Former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin Baz (an ardent Wahhabi) declared that suicide attacks are ‘evil, sinful, immoral, corrupt, oppressive and hostile’; and that those responsible for such crimes do not believe in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and the Last Day ‘with correct conviction.’ In his opinion, such people are: ‘Indulged in the lewdness of the spirit, corruption of the self and envy.’ (referenced in ‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’; by Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani, and reviewed by Shaykh Abdullah Taha Madani).

Syed Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.’ (Op. cit.).

According to Al-Hajari, approximately one thousand and fifty Indian scholars have issued a Fatwa (a religious ruling) stating that ISIS is un-Islamic; and that therefore: ‘The scholars from all around the world should disseminate awareness against this terrorist organisation by any possible means.’ This Fatwa was signed by one thousand and seventy religious organisations, and copies sent to fifty countries.

Madani goes on:

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

‘Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (Op. cit.).

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi) has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’). Muslims are attempting to do just that.

Why is it that certain people (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily (and eagerly)? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek suggest an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals, or nations, are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Why do Islamist extremists defy the Qur’an?

The principal reason is evidenced in a Channel 4 documentary on the Qur’an; a documentary I recorded several years ago. At one point, the presenter introduces Sheikh Khalid Tafesh, at that time the elected representative of Hamas in Bethlehem; with (according to the presenter) a third of his votes coming from Christian Palestinians.

When reminded that that suicide is expressly forbidden in the Qur’an the Sheikh answers: ‘That’s true. God says “do not kill yourself, and do not bring misery on yourself”, so we are forbidden from attempting suicide.’

He then says: ‘If we had the same weapons as the enemy we would not resort to this method, but we don’t, so it’s our only option.’

His argument is straightforward: When faced with overwhelming power and weaponry Muslims are entitled to set the Exalted’s prohibitions on aggressive and unrestrained warfare aside; and to act in any way they see fit.

El Fadl writes: ‘Since they (the terrorists) are not strong enough to take on the Western armed military, they must achieve victory by any means necessary. And, according to puritans, waging attacks against the civilian nationals of countries that occupy Muslim lands will eventually bring these countries to their knees and teach them not to violate the sanctity of or attempt to dominate Muslim nations.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

In short, Islamist extremists believe they are justified in violating the prohibitions against starting – or participating in – a war of aggression; against harming, in any way, non-combatants, women, children, the old, the sick and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war; as well as the prohibitions against destroying property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; crops or livestock; and the prohibition against suicide; because (as far as they are concerned) there is no other way to win peace…their version of peace.

El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In a foreword to the monograph ‘Islamic Rulings on Warfare’; produced in 2004 by Lieutenant Commander Youssef Aboul-Enein (US Navy Medical Service Corps) and Dr. Sherifa Zuhur (Visiting Research Professor of National Security Affairs at the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College) Douglas Lovecraft - Director of the Strategic Studies Institute - writes:

‘To win that ideological war (against Islamic radicalism and anti-American sentiment) we must understand the sources of both Islamic radicalism and liberalism. We need to comprehend more thoroughly the ways in which militants misinterpret and pervert Islamic scripture. (‘Islamic’ terror groups have) produced (their) own spokespersons who attempt to provide religious legitimacy to the nihilism they preach. Many frequently quote from the Quran and ahadith (the Prophet Muhammad’s sayings and deeds) in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

‘The authors have found that proper use of Islamic scripture actually discredits the tactics of al-Qaeda and other jihadist organisations.’

Everything that Lovecraft says about ‘Islamic’ terror groups can be applied equally well to those who rage against Islam in general, and its Prophet in particular. These people also quote from the Quran and ʼaḥādīth in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

Julia Ebner, an Austrian journalist, and researcher at the London-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue, writes:

‘Although it may seem self-evident, it is important to emphasise that most Muslims are not Islamists and most Islamists are not jihadists. This crucial distinction is often ignored by far-right sympathisers, who use the terms Islam, Islamism and jihadism interchangeably to propagate the view that Islam is inherently violent.

‘Far-right and Islamist extremist incidents correlate in terms of their timing, and areas with a strong far-right presence are more likely to breed Islamist extremists and vice versa. One side tends to provoke a retaliatory reaction from the other. The extremes thus escalate, resulting in a spiralling violence effect. With those on each side feeling the need to defend themselves from the offences of the other side, their predictions become a self-fulfilling prophecy: an increasing number of Muslims are lured into embracing Islamist views and a rising number of non-Muslims turn to far-right parties.

‘Looking at the statistics, the Global Database on Terrorism (GDT) records domestic, transnational and international acts of terrorism that occur anywhere across the world. It contains data on over 150,000 terrorist attacks, making it the world’s most comprehensive unclassified database on terrorism incidents. An analysis of this data suggests that far-right extremist violence correlates with Islamist extremist attacks. Indeed, a closer look at the incidents that occurred in the period between January 2012 and September 2016 across the US, Australia, the UK, France and Germany, reveals that far-right and Islamist terrorist attacks tend to spike at the same time.

‘To conclude, a symbiotic relationship between far-right and Islamist extremists occurs on at least two levels: (1) as their stories are two sides of the same coin, they reinforce each other; and (2) as their actions provoke each other into more radical retaliation, they turn each other’s predictions into self-fulfilling prophecies.’ (‘The Rage: The Vicious Circle of Islamist and Far-Right Extremism’).

It appears that far-right and Islamist extremists are incapable of making a fair and reasonable assessment of what the Qur’an has to say – based on a thorough examination of the text itself; and of the words of Islamic scholars – because such an assessment cannot exist in their particular world. They begin with the assumption that whatever they believe simply has to be true; and that any argument to the contrary must be a lie, or else the product of some delusion. No evidence, no logic, no appeal to reason can persuade them otherwise. They dwell in their own echo chambers; two sides of the same worthless currency.
 
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The Former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin Baz (an ardent Wahhabi) declared that suicide attacks are ‘evil, sinful, immoral, corrupt, oppressive and hostile’; and that those responsible for such crimes do not believe in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and the Last Day ‘with correct conviction.’ In his opinion, such people are: ‘Indulged in the lewdness of the spirit, corruption of the self and envy.’ (referenced in ‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’; by Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani, and reviewed by Shaykh Abdullah Taha Madani).

Syed Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.’ (Op. cit.).

According to Al-Hajari, approximately one thousand and fifty Indian scholars have issued a Fatwa (a religious ruling) stating that ISIS is un-Islamic; and that therefore: ‘The scholars from all around the world should disseminate awareness against this terrorist organisation by any possible means.’ This Fatwa was signed by one thousand and seventy religious organisations, and copies sent to fifty countries.

Madani goes on:

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

‘Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (Op. cit.).

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi) has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’). Muslims are attempting to do just that.

Why is it that certain people (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily (and eagerly)? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek suggest an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals, or nations, are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Why do Islamist extremists defy the Qur’an?

The principal reason is evidenced in a Channel 4 documentary on the Qur’an; a documentary I recorded several years ago. At one point, the presenter introduces Sheikh Khalid Tafesh, at that time the elected representative of Hamas in Bethlehem; with (according to the presenter) a third of his votes coming from Christian Palestinians.

When reminded that that suicide is expressly forbidden in the Qur’an the Sheikh answers: ‘That’s true. God says “do not kill yourself, and do not bring misery on yourself”, so we are forbidden from attempting suicide.’

He then says: ‘If we had the same weapons as the enemy we would not resort to this method, but we don’t, so it’s our only option.’

His argument is straightforward: When faced with overwhelming power and weaponry Muslims are entitled to set the Exalted’s prohibitions on aggressive and unrestrained warfare aside; and to act in any way they see fit.

El Fadl writes: ‘Since they (the terrorists) are not strong enough to take on the Western armed military, they must achieve victory by any means necessary. And, according to puritans, waging attacks against the civilian nationals of countries that occupy Muslim lands will eventually bring these countries to their knees and teach them not to violate the sanctity of or attempt to dominate Muslim nations.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

In short, Islamist extremists believe they are justified in violating the prohibitions against starting – or participating in – a war of aggression; against harming, in any way, non-combatants, women, children, the old, the sick and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war; as well as the prohibitions against destroying property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; crops or livestock; and the prohibition against suicide; because (as far as they are concerned) there is no other way to win peace…their version of peace.

El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In a foreword to the monograph ‘Islamic Rulings on Warfare’; produced in 2004 by Lieutenant Commander Youssef Aboul-Enein (US Navy Medical Service Corps) and Dr. Sherifa Zuhur (Visiting Research Professor of National Security Affairs at the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College) Douglas Lovecraft - Director of the Strategic Studies Institute - writes:

‘To win that ideological war (against Islamic radicalism and anti-American sentiment) we must understand the sources of both Islamic radicalism and liberalism. We need to comprehend more thoroughly the ways in which militants misinterpret and pervert Islamic scripture. (‘Islamic’ terror groups have) produced (their) own spokespersons who attempt to provide religious legitimacy to the nihilism they preach. Many frequently quote from the Quran and ahadith (the Prophet Muhammad’s sayings and deeds) in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

‘The authors have found that proper use of Islamic scripture actually discredits the tactics of al-Qaeda and other jihadist organisations.’

Everything that Lovecraft says about ‘Islamic’ terror groups can be applied equally well to those who rage against Islam in general, and its Prophet in particular. These people also quote from the Quran and ʼaḥādīth in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

Julia Ebner, an Austrian journalist, and researcher at the London-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue, writes:

‘Although it may seem self-evident, it is important to emphasise that most Muslims are not Islamists and most Islamists are not jihadists. This crucial distinction is often ignored by far-right sympathisers, who use the terms Islam, Islamism and jihadism interchangeably to propagate the view that Islam is inherently violent.

‘Far-right and Islamist extremist incidents correlate in terms of their timing, and areas with a strong far-right presence are more likely to breed Islamist extremists and vice versa. One side tends to provoke a retaliatory reaction from the other. The extremes thus escalate, resulting in a spiralling violence effect. With those on each side feeling the need to defend themselves from the offences of the other side, their predictions become a self-fulfilling prophecy: an increasing number of Muslims are lured into embracing Islamist views and a rising number of non-Muslims turn to far-right parties.

‘Looking at the statistics, the Global Database on Terrorism (GDT) records domestic, transnational and international acts of terrorism that occur anywhere across the world. It contains data on over 150,000 terrorist attacks, making it the world’s most comprehensive unclassified database on terrorism incidents. An analysis of this data suggests that far-right extremist violence correlates with Islamist extremist attacks. Indeed, a closer look at the incidents that occurred in the period between January 2012 and September 2016 across the US, Australia, the UK, France and Germany, reveals that far-right and Islamist terrorist attacks tend to spike at the same time.

‘To conclude, a symbiotic relationship between far-right and Islamist extremists occurs on at least two levels: (1) as their stories are two sides of the same coin, they reinforce each other; and (2) as their actions provoke each other into more radical retaliation, they turn each other’s predictions into self-fulfilling prophecies.’ (‘The Rage: The Vicious Circle of Islamist and Far-Right Extremism’).

It appears that far-right and Islamist extremists are incapable of making a fair and reasonable assessment of what the Qur’an has to say – based on a thorough examination of the text itself; and of the words of Islamic scholars – because such an assessment cannot exist in their particular world. They begin with the assumption that whatever they believe simply has to be true; and that any argument to the contrary must be a lie, or else the product of some delusion. No evidence, no logic, no appeal to reason can persuade them otherwise. They dwell in their own echo chambers; two sides of the same worthless currency.
Suicide is forbidden in Islam and as for suicide bombing, it is disputable, since Islamic scholars throughout history have honored Istishhad or Islamic martyrdom. Suicide bombing might forbidden among modern scholars due to it being a killing of one’s self. However throwing yourself towards the enemy with the intent of fighting in the way of Allah without regards to your life is permissible in Islam:


1 - Hanafi

Ibn `Abideen says in his Hashiyah (4/303), "There is no objection to a man fighting alone, even if he thinks he will be killed, provided he achieves something such as killing, wounding or defeating [the enemy], for this has been reported from a number of the Sahabah in the presence of the Messenger of Allah on the Day of Uhud, and he praised them for it. If, however, he knows he will not inflict any loss on them, it is not permissible for him to attack, for it would not contribute to the strengthening of the religion."

2 - Maliki

Ibn Khuwayz-Mandad said, as cited by Qurtubi in his Tafseer (2/364), "As for a man single-handedly attacking 100 or more enemy troops ... this has two scenarios: If he is certain, or reasonably so, that he will kill the subject of his attack, and emerge safe, then it is good, and similarly if he is reasonably certain that he will be killed, but will inflict loss or cause damage, or have a beneficial effect for the Muslims, then it is permissible also." Statements from Qurtubi and Ibn al-`Arabi have already preceded.

3 - Shafi`i

In the completion of Al-Majmu` (19/291) by al-Muti`i, we find, "If the number of the unbelievers are twice the numbers of the Muslims, and they do not fear perdition, it is obligatory to stand firm ... If they are more convinced than not of destruction, then there are two possibilities:

1. That they may turn back, based on the verse (meaning), "do not contribute to your own destruction..." 2. That they may not turn back, and this is the correct view, based on the verse, (meaning), "When you encounter a force, remain steadfast...", and because the Mujahid only fights in order to kill or be killed. If the number of the unbelievers exceed twice the numbers of the Muslims, then they may turn back. If they are more convinced than not that they will not be destroyed, then it is better for them to remain steadfast so that the Muslims are not routed. If they are more convinced than not that they will be destroyed, then there are two possibilities:

• That they are obliged to turn back, based on the words of Allah (meaning), "do not contribute to your own destruction..."
• That it is recommended for them to turn back, but not binding, for if they are killed they will attain martyrdom."
4 - Hanbali

Ibn Qudamah says in Al-Mughni (9/309), "If the enemy is more than twice the Muslims' number, and the Muslims are reasonably certain of victory, then it is preferable to remain steadfast on account of the benefit [involved], but if they turn back it is permissible, for they are not immune to destruction ... it is conceivable that they are obliged to stand fast if they are reasonably certain of victory, on account of the benefit, but if they are reasonably certain or being defeated by remaining and being unscathed by turning back, then it is preferable for them to turn back, but if they remain put, it is permissible, for they have a goal of martyrdom, and it is also possible that they will be victorious. If they are reasonably certain of being routed whether they remain put or turn back, then it is preferable for them to remain steadfast to attain the rank or martyrdom, ... and also because it is possible they might be victorious."

Ibn Taymiyyah says, in Majmu` al-Fatawa (28/540), "Muslim has narrated in his Sahih the story of the people of the trenches, in which the boy ordered his own killing for the benefit of the religion, and hence the four imams have allowed a Muslim to immerse himself in the enemy ranks, even if he is reasonably certain that they will kill him, provided there is benefit in that for the Muslims. "

As for suicide bombing I’m not going to make judgement on that, but it seems your argument for why suicide bombing is not permissible is based on authority rather then what the authorities you quote from base their evidence on. Wikiislam makes a strong case for Islam dealing martyrdom operations as permissible. While I’m not going to stake the claim that suicide bombing is allowed in Islam it definitely seems martyrdom operations of the same nature are permissible:

https://stage.wikiislam.net/wiki/Th...of_Martyrdom_Operations#Definition_of_Suicide
 
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Barney2.0

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Indeed! ;)

Differences in style – and content – between the Meccan and Medinan surahs are the result of changing circumstances, and of developing community needs.

The Meccan surahs seek to establish the fundamentals of Islam; to declare the truth that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is One (Al-'Aḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid); to confirm that human existence does not end at death, but that all will experience resurrection, judgement, reward and retribution; to declare that Heaven and Hell are realities (the Meccan idolaters did not believe such things); and to declare that polytheism and idolatry are unacceptable, for there is only one Lord.

The Meccan verses make it perfectly clear that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) requires nothing less than a complete change in one’s way of life, through repentance and right action.

The move to Medina created the first Islamic state; a state responsible for its own development and protection.

Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes:

‘It has been argued that once Muhammad felt strong in Medina, he decided to fight, which he did not when he was weak in Mecca. This assumes that he changed religious teachings according to whim or political expedience. It also assumes that Islam was meant to consist only of the few teachings that were revealed in the Qur’an in Mecca, that the Muslims should always accept oppression and be forced to flee in the face of aggression and that the Prophet should lay himself open to being killed, a paradigm that clearly was not meant for Muhammad, his mission and followers. Islam was obviously meant to grow into a much greater entity than it was in Mecca. In fact, only two of the Five Pillars of Islam were introduced in Mecca, the creed and the five daily prayers. Fasting in the month of Ramadan, which one would assume was suitable for Mecca, was introduced only in the second year in Medina, shortly before permission for military defence. Zakāh (obligatory tax on Muslims) and hajj were introduced later, so were the laws of marriage, divorce and trading, for example.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

Medina was a city where tribes came to settle disputes; this practice can be seen in the surahs that were revealed there. In an essay entitled ‘The Qur’an as a Source of Islamic Law’, Aḥmad Muḥammad al-Ṭayyib writes:

‘The Madinan parts of the Quran are distinguished by the promulgation of laws for personal affairs, society, and the state, including rules of marriage, child nursing (raḍāʿah), family maintenance (nafaqah), inheritance (mīrāth), usury (ribā), commercial transactions (buyūʿ) retribution (qiṣāṣ) and struggle in society and in the path of God (jihād) – all of the different laws that came to be a matter of concern for Muslims as soon as they were constituted as a community, with a state of their own, social institutions, an army, and a leader.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’; by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, et al).

Abdel Haleem writes:

‘Permission for Muslims to defend themselves and retaliate could not have been introduced in Mecca for two reasons: first, they would have laid themselves open to being wiped out, a fate that Islam would not impose on its followers; the Qur’an forbids Muslims to cast themselves into destruction with their own hands (Q. 2:195). When the Prophet saw that his enemies surrounded his house, planning to kill him, he did not await his fate passively, but instead slipped out and away to Medina. Second, in Mecca, Muslims and their opponents were living among each other rather than being two separate communities. Persecution was thus normally carried out by individuals against individuals. Emigration to Medina changed the situation drastically. For the first time the Meccans and their allies were a separate camp and could march on the new community in Medina.’ (Op. cit.)

Haleem reminds us that early in the Medinan period the Muslims were commanded to show restraint, and to continue their prayers and almsgiving. It soon became obvious, however, that the Meccans were not about to leave them in peace. Permission for the Muslims to defend themselves was given in their second year at Medina.
Islamic history is highly disputable, since the Muslims are the only ones telling the story we can’t really know if the Muslims were persecuted by the Meccan pagans or the other way around. Most scholars have adopted the view that Islam just grew out of the native beliefs of Arabia and combined the beliefs of religions it came into contact with such as Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Gnostic sects, etc.
 
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mindlight

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Indeed! ;)

Differences in style – and content – between the Meccan and Medinan surahs are the result of changing circumstances, and of developing community needs.

The Meccan surahs seek to establish the fundamentals of Islam; to declare the truth that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is One (Al-'Aḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid); to confirm that human existence does not end at death, but that all will experience resurrection, judgement, reward and retribution; to declare that Heaven and Hell are realities (the Meccan idolaters did not believe such things); and to declare that polytheism and idolatry are unacceptable, for there is only one Lord.

The Meccan verses make it perfectly clear that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) requires nothing less than a complete change in one’s way of life, through repentance and right action.

The move to Medina created the first Islamic state; a state responsible for its own development and protection.

Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes:

‘It has been argued that once Muhammad felt strong in Medina, he decided to fight, which he did not when he was weak in Mecca. This assumes that he changed religious teachings according to whim or political expedience. It also assumes that Islam was meant to consist only of the few teachings that were revealed in the Qur’an in Mecca, that the Muslims should always accept oppression and be forced to flee in the face of aggression and that the Prophet should lay himself open to being killed, a paradigm that clearly was not meant for Muhammad, his mission and followers. Islam was obviously meant to grow into a much greater entity than it was in Mecca. In fact, only two of the Five Pillars of Islam were introduced in Mecca, the creed and the five daily prayers. Fasting in the month of Ramadan, which one would assume was suitable for Mecca, was introduced only in the second year in Medina, shortly before permission for military defence. Zakāh (obligatory tax on Muslims) and hajj were introduced later, so were the laws of marriage, divorce and trading, for example.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

Medina was a city where tribes came to settle disputes; this practice can be seen in the surahs that were revealed there. In an essay entitled ‘The Qur’an as a Source of Islamic Law’, Aḥmad Muḥammad al-Ṭayyib writes:

‘The Madinan parts of the Quran are distinguished by the promulgation of laws for personal affairs, society, and the state, including rules of marriage, child nursing (raḍāʿah), family maintenance (nafaqah), inheritance (mīrāth), usury (ribā), commercial transactions (buyūʿ) retribution (qiṣāṣ) and struggle in society and in the path of God (jihād) – all of the different laws that came to be a matter of concern for Muslims as soon as they were constituted as a community, with a state of their own, social institutions, an army, and a leader.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’; by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, et al).

Abdel Haleem writes:

‘Permission for Muslims to defend themselves and retaliate could not have been introduced in Mecca for two reasons: first, they would have laid themselves open to being wiped out, a fate that Islam would not impose on its followers; the Qur’an forbids Muslims to cast themselves into destruction with their own hands (Q. 2:195). When the Prophet saw that his enemies surrounded his house, planning to kill him, he did not await his fate passively, but instead slipped out and away to Medina. Second, in Mecca, Muslims and their opponents were living among each other rather than being two separate communities. Persecution was thus normally carried out by individuals against individuals. Emigration to Medina changed the situation drastically. For the first time the Meccans and their allies were a separate camp and could march on the new community in Medina.’ (Op. cit.)

Haleem reminds us that early in the Medinan period the Muslims were commanded to show restraint, and to continue their prayers and almsgiving. It soon became obvious, however, that the Meccans were not about to leave them in peace. Permission for the Muslims to defend themselves was given in their second year at Medina.

So essentially you accept there is a development in the teachings of Islam between Mecca and Medina that was driven by circumstance and context.

In Medina there are extra teachings and also a change in emphasis. Muslims have moved from a state of weakness and disorganisation to one where a Muslim state is now possible. A Muslim state means the possibility of Muslim wars and indeed new suras now spell out the possibility of jihad understood as war.

Can you understand that it seems very theological convenient when “needs” result in proclamations
 
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Niblo

Long post!

Starting with the quote off from the first extremist nutter on your list representing Wahabbism.

Bin Baz supported the Muhajahdeen against the Communists. But when terrorists directed their ire against the Saudi Royal Family whom he defended he is an adamant opponent. As Osama bin laden said he had a very flexible understanding of jihad supporting American troops on Saudi soil for instance.

The guy hated Shias, had oppressive views on women and for a time believed the earth was flat or at very least that the sun went round the earth!! Do you really want him as a representative voice of Islam.

The Wahabbis hate terrorism against themselves but in Yemen, Palestine or Syria they have not been so forthright.
 
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Nabil,

Long post!

Starting with the quote off from the first extremist nutter on your list representing Wahabbism.

Bin Baz supported the Muhajahdeen against the Communists. But when terrorists directed their ire against the Saudi Royal Family whom he defended he is an adamant opponent. As Osama bin laden said he had a very flexible understanding of jihad supporting American troops on Saudi soil for instance.

The guy hated Shias, had oppressive views on women and for a time believed the earth was flat or at very least that the sun went round the earth!! Do you really want him as a representative voice of Islam.

The Wahabbis hate terrorism against themselves but in Yemen, Palestine or Syria they have not been so forthright.
Well Ibn Bazz defended the Saudi royalty and obviously the Saudi royalty had clear some of the clear similarities between them and Salafi terrorist groups. Ibn Bazz also seemed to support suicide operations in Afghanistan which shows some hypocrisy there. But in general many scholars state martyrdom operations as permissible, the famed Islamic apologist Zakir Naik defended suicide bombing as war tactic.
 
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Can you understand that it seems very theological convenient when “needs” result in proclamations

Well in what dimension of Muhammad's life as a prophet was that ever not the case? Wasn't it 'Aisha herself who said to her husband "I feel your Lord hastens to fulfill your desires"? Granted, if I recall correctly that was with regard to his taking more wives than is strictly Islamically permissible via 'special revelation' from Allah concerning his situation only...or was it with regard to his marrying Zaynab? I honestly can't remember, when there are so many convenient 'revelations' that it could have been!

She may have been a child, but that 'Aisha was on to something.
 
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Truly a genius for all times, that guy... :D



Zakir Naik happens to be the worst Islamic apologist in my opinion, he’s one that I have no respect for at all. I mentioned him because most Muslims I meet seem to idolize him. I love when they bring him up in arguments and debates since he’s so easy to refute. I believe Zakir Naik could learn a thing or two from real Islamic apologists which I respect like Shabir Ally.
 
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Syed Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.’ (Op. cit.).

According to Al-Hajari, approximately one thousand and fifty Indian scholars have issued a Fatwa (a religious ruling) stating that ISIS is un-Islamic; and that therefore: ‘The scholars from all around the world should disseminate awareness against this terrorist organisation by any possible means.’ This Fatwa was signed by one thousand and seventy religious organisations, and copies sent to fifty countries.

Madani goes on:

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

Great that they oppose ISIS and that a voice against terrorist extremism exists within Islam. Also yes acquiring knowledge, elimination of poverty and family stability are better goals for angry young men to have.

‘Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (Op. cit.).

This denigration of other Muslims does seem to be a feature of ISIS teaching. I met 2 Muslims from the Raqqa area the other day who had similar views. That maybe only one Muslim in 73 was actually real.

BUt this Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh character is a real piece of work arguing for the destruction of all churches in Saudia Arabia, issuing fatwas permitting 10 year old girls to marry, and apparently he wants chess banned as a form of gambling!!!!! He also dismisses the whole of Iran as non Muslim so is just as guilty as ISIS of writing off the confession of other Muslims. But yes he did oppose suicide bombings.

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi) has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’). Muslims are attempting to do just that.

Good that he condemns ISIS.

Why is it that certain people (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily (and eagerly)? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek suggest an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals, or nations, are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

The idea that we are all made in Gods image and have that dignity was in the bible 2000 years before Mohammed. But still of course we agree on this.

Why do Islamist extremists defy the Qur’an?

The principal reason is evidenced in a Channel 4 documentary on the Qur’an; a documentary I recorded several years ago. At one point, the presenter introduces Sheikh Khalid Tafesh, at that time the elected representative of Hamas in Bethlehem; with (according to the presenter) a third of his votes coming from Christian Palestinians.

When reminded that that suicide is expressly forbidden in the Qur’an the Sheikh answers: ‘That’s true. God says “do not kill yourself, and do not bring misery on yourself”, so we are forbidden from attempting suicide.’

He then says: ‘If we had the same weapons as the enemy we would not resort to this method, but we don’t, so it’s our only option.’

His argument is straightforward: When faced with overwhelming power and weaponry Muslims are entitled to set the Exalted’s prohibitions on aggressive and unrestrained warfare aside; and to act in any way they see fit.

El Fadl writes: ‘Since they (the terrorists) are not strong enough to take on the Western armed military, they must achieve victory by any means necessary. And, according to puritans, waging attacks against the civilian nationals of countries that occupy Muslim lands will eventually bring these countries to their knees and teach them not to violate the sanctity of or attempt to dominate Muslim nations.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

In short, Islamist extremists believe they are justified in violating the prohibitions against starting – or participating in – a war of aggression; against harming, in any way, non-combatants, women, children, the old, the sick and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war; as well as the prohibitions against destroying property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; crops or livestock; and the prohibition against suicide; because (as far as they are concerned) there is no other way to win peace…their version of peace.

El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In a foreword to the monograph ‘Islamic Rulings on Warfare’; produced in 2004 by Lieutenant Commander Youssef Aboul-Enein (US Navy Medical Service Corps) and Dr. Sherifa Zuhur (Visiting Research Professor of National Security Affairs at the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College) Douglas Lovecraft - Director of the Strategic Studies Institute - writes:

‘To win that ideological war (against Islamic radicalism and anti-American sentiment) we must understand the sources of both Islamic radicalism and liberalism. We need to comprehend more thoroughly the ways in which militants misinterpret and pervert Islamic scripture. (‘Islamic’ terror groups have) produced (their) own spokespersons who attempt to provide religious legitimacy to the nihilism they preach. Many frequently quote from the Quran and ahadith (the Prophet Muhammad’s sayings and deeds) in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

‘The authors have found that proper use of Islamic scripture actually discredits the tactics of al-Qaeda and other jihadist organisations.’

Everything that Lovecraft says about ‘Islamic’ terror groups can be applied equally well to those who rage against Islam in general, and its Prophet in particular. These people also quote from the Quran and ʼaḥādīth in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

Yes but where is the line between suicide bombings and martyrdom operations. It seems many of these scholars condemn such operations when they conflict with their own agenda but support them when they do not. It seems clear that the indiscriminate slaughter of people (including Muslims ) in incidents like that of 911 would be hard to justify in Islam. But what about Palestinian bombers suicide bombers targeting Israeli troops in Gaza. Suicide bombing is also just a technique within the overall concept of jihad as war. It seems that many if not most Muslims would support jihad like operations like that against the Soviets and possibly also even against the Americans in Iraq.

Julia Ebner, an Austrian journalist, and researcher at the London-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue, writes:

‘Although it may seem self-evident, it is important to emphasise that most Muslims are not Islamists and most Islamists are not jihadists. This crucial distinction is often ignored by far-right sympathisers, who use the terms Islam, Islamism and jihadism interchangeably to propagate the view that Islam is inherently violent.

‘Far-right and Islamist extremist incidents correlate in terms of their timing, and areas with a strong far-right presence are more likely to breed Islamist extremists and vice versa. One side tends to provoke a retaliatory reaction from the other. The extremes thus escalate, resulting in a spiralling violence effect. With those on each side feeling the need to defend themselves from the offences of the other side, their predictions become a self-fulfilling prophecy: an increasing number of Muslims are lured into embracing Islamist views and a rising number of non-Muslims turn to far-right parties.

‘Looking at the statistics, the Global Database on Terrorism (GDT) records domestic, transnational and international acts of terrorism that occur anywhere across the world. It contains data on over 150,000 terrorist attacks, making it the world’s most comprehensive unclassified database on terrorism incidents. An analysis of this data suggests that far-right extremist violence correlates with Islamist extremist attacks. Indeed, a closer look at the incidents that occurred in the period between January 2012 and September 2016 across the US, Australia, the UK, France and Germany, reveals that far-right and Islamist terrorist attacks tend to spike at the same time.

‘To conclude, a symbiotic relationship between far-right and Islamist extremists occurs on at least two levels: (1) as their stories are two sides of the same coin, they reinforce each other; and (2) as their actions provoke each other into more radical retaliation, they turn each other’s predictions into self-fulfilling prophecies.’ (‘The Rage: The Vicious Circle of Islamist and Far-Right Extremism’).

It appears that far-right and Islamist extremists are incapable of making a fair and reasonable assessment of what the Qur’an has to say – based on a thorough examination of the text itself; and of the words of Islamic scholars – because such an assessment cannot exist in their particular world. They begin with the assumption that whatever they believe simply has to be true; and that any argument to the contrary must be a lie, or else the product of some delusion. No evidence, no logic, no appeal to reason can persuade them otherwise. They dwell in their own echo chambers; two sides of the same worthless currency.

Many of the Muslims you quote seem more Nazi to me than many who are often dismissed as far right racists for attacking Islam. Afterall they believe in genocide of unbelievers, war against established governments in the name of Islam, a life of continual violence and struggle and of course they hate Jews and especially Zionists. They destroy and live to die rather than create and live. While many on the so called far right believe in compassion for the poor (welfare state), a proper education system (pursuit of knowledge) and traditional views on the family. But I and most Christians do not support vigilante attacks on Muslims who deserve the same legal protections as any body else regarding personal welfare and property.
 
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Zakir Naik happens to be the worst Islamic apologist in my opinion, he’s one that I have no respect for at all. I mentioned him because most Muslims I meet seem to idolize him. I love when they bring him up in arguments and debates since he’s so easy to refute. I believe Zakir Naik could learn a thing or two from real Islamic apologists which I respect like Shabir Ally.

Zakir Naik is easy to dismiss as a liar whose act only works on the ignorant. Shabir Ally sounds more dangerous as he plays on the ignorance of many Christians of their own scriptures.
 
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Suicide is forbidden in Islam and as for suicide bombing, it is disputable, since Islamic scholars throughout history have honored Istishhad or Islamic martyrdom. Suicide bombing might forbidden among modern scholars due to it being a killing of one’s self. However throwing yourself towards the enemy with the intent of fighting in the way of Allah without regards to your life is permissible in Islam:


1 - Hanafi

Ibn `Abideen says in his Hashiyah (4/303), "There is no objection to a man fighting alone, even if he thinks he will be killed, provided he achieves something such as killing, wounding or defeating [the enemy], for this has been reported from a number of the Sahabah in the presence of the Messenger of Allah on the Day of Uhud, and he praised them for it. If, however, he knows he will not inflict any loss on them, it is not permissible for him to attack, for it would not contribute to the strengthening of the religion."

2 - Maliki

Ibn Khuwayz-Mandad said, as cited by Qurtubi in his Tafseer (2/364), "As for a man single-handedly attacking 100 or more enemy troops ... this has two scenarios: If he is certain, or reasonably so, that he will kill the subject of his attack, and emerge safe, then it is good, and similarly if he is reasonably certain that he will be killed, but will inflict loss or cause damage, or have a beneficial effect for the Muslims, then it is permissible also." Statements from Qurtubi and Ibn al-`Arabi have already preceded.

3 - Shafi`i

In the completion of Al-Majmu` (19/291) by al-Muti`i, we find, "If the number of the unbelievers are twice the numbers of the Muslims, and they do not fear perdition, it is obligatory to stand firm ... If they are more convinced than not of destruction, then there are two possibilities:

1. That they may turn back, based on the verse (meaning), "do not contribute to your own destruction..." 2. That they may not turn back, and this is the correct view, based on the verse, (meaning), "When you encounter a force, remain steadfast...", and because the Mujahid only fights in order to kill or be killed. If the number of the unbelievers exceed twice the numbers of the Muslims, then they may turn back. If they are more convinced than not that they will not be destroyed, then it is better for them to remain steadfast so that the Muslims are not routed. If they are more convinced than not that they will be destroyed, then there are two possibilities:

• That they are obliged to turn back, based on the words of Allah (meaning), "do not contribute to your own destruction..."
• That it is recommended for them to turn back, but not binding, for if they are killed they will attain martyrdom."
4 - Hanbali

Ibn Qudamah says in Al-Mughni (9/309), "If the enemy is more than twice the Muslims' number, and the Muslims are reasonably certain of victory, then it is preferable to remain steadfast on account of the benefit [involved], but if they turn back it is permissible, for they are not immune to destruction ... it is conceivable that they are obliged to stand fast if they are reasonably certain of victory, on account of the benefit, but if they are reasonably certain or being defeated by remaining and being unscathed by turning back, then it is preferable for them to turn back, but if they remain put, it is permissible, for they have a goal of martyrdom, and it is also possible that they will be victorious. If they are reasonably certain of being routed whether they remain put or turn back, then it is preferable for them to remain steadfast to attain the rank or martyrdom, ... and also because it is possible they might be victorious."

Ibn Taymiyyah says, in Majmu` al-Fatawa (28/540), "Muslim has narrated in his Sahih the story of the people of the trenches, in which the boy ordered his own killing for the benefit of the religion, and hence the four imams have allowed a Muslim to immerse himself in the enemy ranks, even if he is reasonably certain that they will kill him, provided there is benefit in that for the Muslims. "

As for suicide bombing I’m not going to make judgement on that, but it seems your argument for why suicide bombing is not permissible is based on authority rather then what the authorities you quote from base their evidence on. Wikiislam makes a strong case for Islam dealing martyrdom operations as permissible. While I’m not going to stake the claim that suicide bombing is allowed in Islam it definitely seems martyrdom operations of the same nature are permissible:

https://stage.wikiislam.net/wiki/Th...of_Martyrdom_Operations#Definition_of_Suicide

Excellent post and this is something that Muslims need to work out. Where is the line between "martyrdom operations" and suicide bombings. Either way it seems war in the name of Islam against established sovereign governments seems permissible. But it has to be considered wrong even within Islam to indiscriminately blow up crowds of civilians that may even include other Muslims.

The Medinan emphasis on fighting for the faith seems present in a great many Muslim proclamations.
 
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Zakir Naik is easy to dismiss as a liar whose act only works on the ignorant. Shabir Ally sounds more dangerous as he plays on the ignorance of many Christians of their own scriptures.
I find Shabir Ally’s works or debates on Christianity to be more fair and yet based on wrong understandings.
 
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Great that they oppose ISIS and that a voice against terrorist extremism exists within Islam. Also yes acquiring knowledge, elimination of poverty and family stability are better goals for angry young men to have.



This denigration of other Muslims does seem to be a feature of ISIS teaching. I met 2 Muslims from the Raqqa area the other day who had similar views. That maybe only one Muslim in 73 was actually real.

BUt this Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh character is a real piece of work arguing for the destruction of all churches in Saudia Arabia, issuing fatwas permitting 10 year old girls to marry, and apparently he wants chess banned as a form of gambling!!!!! He also dismisses the whole of Iran as non Muslim so is just as guilty as ISIS of writing off the confession of other Muslims. But yes he did oppose suicide bombings.



Good that he condemns ISIS.



The idea that we are all made in Gods image and have that dignity was in the bible 2000 years before Mohammed. But still of course we agree on this.



Yes but where is the line between suicide bombings and martyrdom operations. It seems many of these scholars condemn such operations when they conflict with their own agenda but support them when they do not. It seems clear that the indiscriminate slaughter of people (including Muslims ) in incidents like that of 911 would be hard to justify in Islam. But what about Palestinian bombers suicide bombers targeting Israeli troops in Gaza. Suicide bombing is also just a technique within the overall concept of jihad as war. It seems that many if not most Muslims would support jihad like operations like that against the Soviets and possibly also even against the Americans in Iraq.



Many of the Muslims you quote seem more Nazi to me than many who are often dismissed as far right racists for attacking Islam. Afterall they believe in genocide of unbelievers, war against established governments in the name of Islam, a life of continual violence and struggle and of course they hate Jews and especially Zionists. They destroy and live to die rather than create and live. While many on the so called far right believe in compassion for the poor (welfare state), a proper education system (pursuit of knowledge) and traditional views on the family. But I and most Christians do not support vigilante attacks on Muslims who deserve the same legal protections as any body else regarding personal welfare and property.
I just want to point out Salafi movements like Isis don’t consider Sufis to be genuine Orthodox Muslims and it also works the other way around and vice versa.
 
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So essentially you accept there is a development in the teachings of Islam between Mecca and Medina that was driven by circumstance and context.

In Medina there are extra teachings and also a change in emphasis. Muslims have moved from a state of weakness and disorganisation to one where a Muslim state is now possible. A Muslim state means the possibility of Muslim wars and indeed new suras now spell out the possibility of jihad understood as war.

Can you understand that it seems very theological convenient when “needs” result in proclamations

It is what it is! ;)
 
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............

The fact that Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh is wrong about so many things does not mean that he is wrong about everything. Certainly, he is not wrong about ISIS!

When it comes to waging war I have stated already (and to you, repeatedly) the behaviours that are expected of a Muslim, and I see no need to repeat them yet again. The fact remains that the world would be a far better, and more peaceful place, if these behaviours were universally applied; by everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. Thank you for your time.
 
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BUt this Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh character is a real piece of work arguing for the destruction of all churches in Saudia Arabia

What churches would those be? The ruins of Jubail, which they won't even openly admit were a church?

That's the closest thing that there is to a church anywhere in Saudi Arabia. The last native Christians were kicked out of Najran or forced to convert to Islam centuries ago. Everyone since then was some type of foreigner (e.g., Greek, Syrian, Brit, etc.) either settled there during Ottoman times or more recently. This is how there could be a cemetery for non-Muslims in Jeddah as recently as 1930, but most emphatically was not a church there for them (or anyone), despite rumors to the contrary.

As to King Salman's supposed new policy on the matter, I'll believe it when I see it. He met with HH Pope Tawadros II months ago and they had apparently a very nice talk, but still nothing has come of it. There's still nowhere for Oriental Orthodox to pray (and there are considerable number of Ethiopians in KSA as foreign workers, so we could use it). I think this might be something like the new edict allowing women to drive: make a big show of all the great 'progressive' things he's now ushering into the kingdom (whether or not any of them actually happen; I think women driving may be easier to swallow than churches, because there's no fear of a change in religion from driving) and a lot of the world that might otherwise care about human rights will not look at the piles and piles of dead Yemenis from the Saudi war on the Houthis (which the U.S. is stupidly helping with in an attempt to counterbalance Iranian influence, since the Houthis are Shi'ite rebels).
 
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What churches would those be? The ruins of Jubail, which they won't even openly admit were a church?

That's the closest thing that there is to a church anywhere in Saudi Arabia. The last native Christians were kicked out of Najran or forced to convert to Islam centuries ago. Everyone since then was some type of foreigner (e.g., Greek, Syrian, Brit, etc.) either settled there during Ottoman times or more recently. This is how there could be a cemetery for non-Muslims in Jeddah as recently as 1930, but most emphatically was not a church there for them (or anyone), despite rumors to the contrary.

As to King Salman's supposed new policy on the matter, I'll believe it when I see it. He met with HH Pope Tawadros II months ago and they had apparently a very nice talk, but still nothing has come of it. There's still nowhere for Oriental Orthodox to pray (and there are considerable number of Ethiopians in KSA as foreign workers, so we could use it). I think this might be something like the new edict allowing women to drive: make a big show of all the great 'progressive' things he's now ushering into the kingdom (whether or not any of them actually happen; I think women driving may be easier to swallow than churches, because there's no fear of a change in religion from driving) and a lot of the world that might otherwise care about human rights will not look at the piles and piles of dead Yemenis from the Saudi war on the Houthis (which the U.S. is stupidly helping with in an attempt to counterbalance Iranian influence, since the Houthis are Shi'ite rebels).
Most Saudis I’ve met do admit the existence of the Jubail Church, most scholars think it’s of Syriac Nestorian origin. There are rumors the Maronites are going to open a Church for the Lebanese Christians who work in Saudi. I’m proud that no members of the Antiochian Church have met with Saudi officials, both Melkites and Eastern Orthodox.
 
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dzheremi

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Most Saudis I’ve met do admit the existence of the Jubail Church, most scholars think it’s of Syriac Nestorian origin.

Sorry, I should have specified that I meant the government, not everyday Saudi people. The government does recognize it as an archaeological site, but last I read anyway they stopped short of officially identifying it as a church, and have even left it only partially protected despite being actively excavated by their archaeologists (so they claim; I have read conflicting reports that they do not allow anyone to work there), and this has led to a situation wherein its stone cross reliefs has been obliterated, so as to bolster the idea that it could have been something else. You can find some pictures at AINA (Assyrian International News Agency) with the crosses intact, but they are from 1986 when the structure was first discovered, and since then the government has really clamped down on who can see it, because they do not want it publicized that there were churches in the land from so long before Muhammad. It hurts the traditional Islamic narrative, I guess.
 
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Sorry, I should have specified that I meant the government, not everyday Saudi people. The government does recognize it as an archaeological site, but last I read anyway they stopped short of officially identifying it as a church, and have even left it only partially protected despite being actively excavated by their archaeologists (so they claim; I have read conflicting reports that they do not allow anyone to work there), and this has led to a situation wherein its stone cross reliefs has been obliterated, so as to bolster the idea that it could have been something else. You can find some pictures at AINA (Assyrian International News Agency) with the crosses intact, but they are from 1986 when the structure was first discovered, and since then the government has really clamped down on who can see it, because they do not want it publicized that there were churches in the land from so long before Muhammad. It hurts the traditional Islamic narrative, I guess.
I’ve heard the government authorities keep them in this archaeological vault away from public eyes, most people believe the crosses along with hundreds of pagan statues are kept inside some vault somewhere.
 
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