Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

jgr · Sep 14, 2018

DaDad said:
Ummmmmm, 2:45 says FIVE World Empires, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. And you only listed FOUR.

Can you think of a FIFTH "Divided Kingdom" which might be comprised of two or more Superpowers, might exist approximate to the era of 1948, and for which the angel in 12:4 & 9 specifies as "end time"?

Thanks,
DaDad

There are four kingdoms. The fourth is comprised of the legs, feet, and toes; all of which contain iron, thus identifying them as belonging to a single kingdom. The feet and toes additionally contain clay, representing additional characteristics of the "iron kingdom".

The four kingdoms of Daniel 2 are consistent with the four kingdoms of Daniel 7: Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman.

DaDad · Sep 14, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
... the horns "must" refer to ...

I LOVE the word "must", as though it were foundational. It's like "could", "should", or "maybe", but so much more assertive.

Unfortunately, all my favorite words don't apply to absolutes, and the "toes"/"horns"/"diadems"/"mountains"/"kings" are all absolutes.

It just too bad that so many provide guesses instead of facts.

Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 14, 2018

DaDad said:
Ummmmmm, 2:45 says FIVE World Empires, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. And you only listed FOUR.

Can you think of a FIFTH "Divided Kingdom" which might be comprised of two or more Superpowers, might exist approximate to the era of 1948, and for which the angel in 12:4 & 9 specifies as "end time"?

Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.....17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth......23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Erik Nelson · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
I LOVE the word "must", as though it were foundational. It's like "could", "should", or "maybe", but so much more assertive.

Unfortunately, all my favorite words don't apply to absolutes, and the "toes"/"horns"/"diadems"/"mountains"/"kings" are all absolutes.

It just too bad that so many provide guesses instead of facts.

Thanks,
DaDad

like you just did, you just also guessed at the meaning of the text

you seem more sure of your interpretation than me of mine

Erik Nelson · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.....17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth......23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

4 kingdoms are widely acknowledged to be

Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome (pagan)

pagan Rome is well known to have been converted to Christ in the days of St. Lawrence in 258 AD, and worldly authority followed under Constantine 50 years later

5. everlasting kingdom = Messianic Kingdom of God = Church (from Christian perspective)

seems clear enough to notice God in heaven accurately forecasting events on earth centuries & millennia in advance

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts

Did you think that a "divided kingdom" wouldn't have a subsequent number of "divisions"? Maybe "divided kingdom" was what, -- one? -- Well, do you think that History might present a "division" of THREE Superpowers? And could the "fourth" "dreadful" beast be the One-World-Government which shall be judged, and the three would continue for a "season and a time"?

If you're arguing that the three beasts in Daniel 7 represent the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, & Grecian, then how will these three ancient empires come back to life for a "season and a time"? Wasn't there a "bird", who was eaten and digested by a "cat", who was eaten and digested by a "dog", and subsequently eaten and digested by an "alligator"? So if you kill the alligator, do the previous iterations of meals all re-appear? That's a good trick.

Maybe the Daniel 7 beast are all CONCURRENT. Hmmmmm, yeah, I think the news had something about the U.S., Russia, & China having global influence.
Nah, it's nothing.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
like you just did, ... also guessed at the meaning of the text

You admit what you're doing, and presume what I'm doing. Don't presume so much. Please ONLY speak for YOURSELF.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
4 kingdoms are widely acknowledged ...

Scripture and History don't "acknowledge" your assertion. Maybe other less-informed individuals might agree with you, but I don't think that's the STANDARD. -- Scripture and History are the STANDARD.

Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

jgr said:
Your references are to the Byzantine Eastern Roman Empire. The Reformers believed (and experienced) that they referred to the apostate papacy arising out of the dissolution of the Western Roman Empire.

The eastern half of he Roman Empire is the Roman Empire proper. The capitol was moved in 333 AD to Constantinople. That is not a disputable opinion. The fact that they eventually adopted Greek as the official language is meaningless.
Septimius Severus's (who is the little horn of Daniel 7) son, the next emperor, made all non slaves in the entire empire Roman Citizens. They were both Africans. Being Italian from that point on ceased to be a factor in the emperor-ship. It went to whoever could win it of all nationalities.

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
Did you think that a "divided kingdom" wouldn't have a subsequent number of "divisions"? Maybe "divided kingdom" was what, -- one? -- Well, do you think that History might present a "division" of THREE Superpowers? And could the "fourth" "dreadful" beast be the One-World-Government which shall be judged, and the three would continue for a "season and a time"?

If you're arguing that the three beasts in Daniel 7 represent the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, & Grecian, then how will these three ancient empires come back to life for a "season and a time"? Wasn't there a "bird", who was eaten and digested by a "cat", who was eaten and digested by a "dog", and subsequently eaten and digested by an "alligator"? So if you kill the alligator, do the previous iterations of meals all re-appear? That's a good trick.

Maybe the Daniel 7 beast are all CONCURRENT. Hmmmmm, yeah, I think the news had something about the U.S., Russia, & China having global influence.
Nah, it's nothing.

Thanks,
DaDad

It doesn't say they will come back to life. It says their lives will be prolonged for a time and a season. What it means is that after the fourth empire ends, Rome 1453 AD and the age of promise begins, 1453 AD. That evil despotic government will still exist. They just will not dominate the entire globe.......just like we see now. The Nations who are the most influenced by the Word of God have been and will continue to be dominate in the world.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
It doesn't say they will come back to life.

Perhaps you missed this evening's news. THEY'RE DEAD. THEY'VE BEEN DEAD FOR MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS.

But I believe in resuscitation. So long as the chicken I ate this evening doesn't come back to life tonight, and the worms and bugs that IT ate also. -- I'm going to throw up now ...

Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
4 kingdoms are widely acknowledged to be

Babylon

Persia

Greece

Rome (pagan)

pagan Rome is well known to have been converted to Christ in the days of St. Lawrence in 258 AD, and worldly authority followed under Constantine 50 years later

5. everlasting kingdom = Messianic Kingdom of God = Church (from Christian perspective)

seems clear enough to notice God in heaven accurately forecasting events on earth centuries & millennia in advance

Yeah....ummm no. The Bible clearly says that Satan is the power behind all four empires. Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Doesn't matter if that claimed Christianity. They all went about setting up imperial churches to control it did they not? Just like the communist countries do today. You can't just throw out the dates the Bible gave us by telling us the age of promise would begin at the end of the fourth empire which turned out to be 1453 AD.

What happened in 1453 AD because the Roman Empire finally falling did not change the fact that the wicked ruled the earth through despotic human government still? The first commercial European printing press went online in Europe is what happened, 1452-1454. Within decades and for the first time in human history the Bible got into the hand's of the general public. This happened in northern Europe and illegally mind you. Then something else happened for the first time in human history outside of ancient Israel. The kings and emperors of Europe that had been 100% successful for 1500 years in wiping out populations who were gaining access and being influenced by the Word of God...this time failed. At the cost of millions of lives but they still failed. From that came the worlds first republic (outside of ancient Israel) that was founded on Biblical principle. The Dutch republic. Became a dominate power in the earth. Even though after 200 years it got conquered. The nations that conquered it were now also becoming heavily influenced by the scripture.

But then there was also another phenomena. The discovery of the Americas by Columbus in 1492. The USA also founded upon Biblical principle and ever since then another phenomena has been growing in the earth. For the first time in human history the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints. Promises never fulfilled in their generations are now being fulfilled in nations that are influenced by varying degrees of Biblical principle. Promises like the end of despotic human government. The end of legal slavery. The end of the oppression of woman. Long life. Being able to raise your children as you see fit and not having to worry about conquering armies coming in and enslaving them. Nations, republics under the influence of Biblical principle not seeking to conquer one another, (The lion and the lamb laying down together.) I can make a list 20 pages long of what God has done in the earth that previous generations never had because of the Gospel, the Word of God, and the providence of God.
See people just thought God was going to do all these things on his own. They didn't, still don't figure they had to win these promises in Christ.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

[QUOTE="Daniel Martinovich, post: 73177125, member: all four empires. [/QUOTE]
Daniel 2:45 says FIVE: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,5,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.
And both Scripture and History support a FIFTH "divided kingdom" as evidenced by THREE concurrent superpowers, and a one-world-government (U.N.).
Thanks,
DaDad

Douggg · Sep 15, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
4 kingdoms are widely acknowledged to be

Babylon

Persia

Greece

Rome (pagan)

pagan Rome is well known to have been converted to Christ in the days of St. Lawrence in 258 AD, and worldly authority followed under Constantine 50 years later

5. everlasting kingdom = Messianic Kingdom of God = Church (from Christian perspective)

seems clear enough to notice God in heaven accurately forecasting events on earth centuries & millennia in advance

Erik, not arguing, just making some observations and comments, okay?

Do you consider pagan Rome to have many gods at different levels?

If so, I would like to point out that the person in Daniel 11:36, considers himself at the top, but bestows gifts on a god called the fortress god. So it seems he will believe in a tier of gods - in similitude to the Romans.

And interestingly, the Abomination of Desolation act by Antiochus, which is to per-figure the end times Abomination of Desolation was a statue of Zeus placed in the temple. Antiochus himself thought he was the embodiment of Zeus in human form. I am sure he didn't have a body of his claimed god - but wouldn't you think that he may have thought he was possessed by Zeus or given Zeus's power.?

I am thinking when the person becomes the beast, he will receive supernatural power from Satan - perhaps promised -to become possessed by the unclean spirit now in the bottomless pit.

In Daniel 8, it is said the person magnifies himself in his heart. Says the same in Ezekiel 28:1-10 as the reason God has him killed - because he shows the world that he has achieved God-hood (his false claim of course). Apparently, this is so impacting because he will be in a position of power at the time when he makes the huge claim.

I don't think an insignificant person - would be as important to write about him in the bible.

Cement · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
Hi Cement,
The video you posted has so many false doctrines, I couldn't begin to debunk them all. And hearing false doctrines is NOT a helpful resource.

But giving all credence to your proficiency, let me ask you a simple question:

What do the attributes represent for -- MOUTH of the Lion; BODY of the Leopard; and FEET of the Bear?

And if you prefer, a different question:

Why does Rev. 12 have SEVEN Diadems, but Rev. 13 has TEN Diadems?

Of course I could go on and on, but an answer for either one of these might help establish your credentials!

Thanks,
DaDad

Never mentioned I was super proficient in explaining it but ill have a go at it. The corresponding attributes to the wild animals have their meaning in Daniels own prophecy. For instance a Lions mouth imposes a sense of authority being able to sway the nations and kings under its command. The Leopards body means the beast strikes quickly and imposes its will with diligence and lastly the bears feet would mean its takes hold and crushes overwhelmingly. Something akin to an amalgamation here of all the previous empires.
As to your second question I would defer to whoever mentions the standard hermenuetic approach to scripture. The number 10 representing either the 10 Roman rulers of the early church or the first beasts complete control control over the earth giving and is akin to the latter divided kingdom whom it rules over. The 7 crowns of the dragon would be three less because the little horn power displaced those kings authority when it grew in stature.

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
Perhaps you missed this evening's news. THEY'RE DEAD. THEY'VE BEEN DEAD FOR MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS.

But I believe in resuscitation. So long as the chicken I ate this evening doesn't come back to life tonight, and the worms and bugs that IT ate also. -- I'm going to throw up now ...

Thanks,
DaDad

Not much of an argument. The fact remains that we live in the era that was to follow the fourth empire. An age that the Bible prophesied the continual growth of the influence of his invisible kingdom. An era marked by nations where the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints that never came to pass in their generations. Are now being fulfilled in nations that have accepted varying degree's of Biblical principle. Especially nations that have had the Gospel preached in power to them for centuries.

Our world that we are enjoying never existed in the history of all humanity. And the phenomena is growing. A billion people accepted Christ in the last 50 years. if the trend continues 2 billion more will have in the next 30.

Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Cement said:
Never mentioned I was super proficient in explaining it but ill have a go at it. The corresponding attributes to the wild animals have their meaning in Daniels own prophecy. For instance a Lions mouth imposes a sense of authority being able to sway the nations and kings under its command. The Leopards body means the beast strikes quickly and imposes its will with diligence and lastly the bears feet would mean its takes hold and crushes overwhelmingly. Something akin to an amalgamation here of all the previous empires.
As to your second question I would defer to whoever mentions the standard hermenuetic approach to scripture. The number 10 representing either the 10 Roman rulers of the early church or the first beasts complete control control over the earth giving and is akin to the latter divided kingdom whom it rules over. The 7 crowns of the dragon would be three less because the little horn power displaced those kings authority when it grew in stature.

Hey Cement,
Well I admire you for trying, but your answers are not correct.

QUESTION #1:
First of all, you must understand that Daniel 2:45 demands a FIVE World Empire scenario, where the FIFTH Empire is a "Divided Kingdom", -- as between Three Superpowers, and a one-world-government (U.N.). And of course the U.N. will have a TEN Nation Permanent Membership on the Security Council, for the ten toes/horns.

Secondly, because Daniel 2 demands FIVE, thus the Daniel 7 represents the FOUR Nations of the "divided kingdom":

Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S.
Bear -- Russia
Leopard (actually a "Tiger") -- China
"Dreadful" -- U.N.

And so in Rev. 13 we find the Lion(Eagle) U.K./U.S. "MOUTH" which has Trade, Finance, Science, & Technology supremacy; the Leopard (actually a "Tiger") China "BODY"which has the most mass of population; and the Bear Russian "FEET" which has the most land mass (U.S. ~3M, Canada ~3M, China ~3M, Russia ~8M sq. miles).

QUESTION #2:
Per the above delineation we should arrive at:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persla
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "Divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations
9. Millennial Kingdom, Jesus
10. New Jerusalem, Eternity

Thus in Rev. 12, the SEVEN Diadems are during the era which pre-dates the One-World-Government "Beast".

In Rev. 13, that "Beast" now has dominion, with the TEN Nations:

Current Permanent Membership on the Security Council:

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

NOMINATED to Permanent Membership on the Security Council:

6. Germany
7. Japan
8. Brazil
9. Nigeria
10. India

And of course with the 10 nation dominion, comes TEN Diadems.

But don't believe me, believe Scripture and History. For example, WHERE IN THE WORLD DID I GET THE LIST OF THE ADDITIONAL FIVE NATIONS NOMINATED TO THE SECURITY COUNCIL???

Simple:
“The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46

And don't be afraid to validate the citation, or challenge me on ANY of my assertions. I'm MORE than happy to provide (as best as I'm able) what GOD has for the church in these end-times.

With Very Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
... we live in the era that was to follow the fourth empire ..

Yes, FIVE follows FOUR. -- Or so my first grade teach insisted. I argued but it was no use ...
Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 15, 2018

DaDad said:
Yes, FIVE follows FOUR. -- Or so my first grade teach insisted. I argued by it was no use ...
Thanks,
DaDad

Big difference in claiming there will be a 5th empire of clay, (or whatever) verses calling God's kingdom #5.

DaDad · Sep 15, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Big difference in claiming there will be a 5th empire of clay, (or whatever) verses calling God's kingdom #5.

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom

Your argument's not with ME!

Thanks,
DaDad

Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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