Why Jews were made, not Born

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 13, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
So what about circumcised Jews who believe in Yeshua? Are we not Jews?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Hebrew Christian? Belief in our Messiah is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism. Phoney theology?

I notice you are EO.
Does the EOC practice Judaism, including keeping the 7th day sabbath?

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
Circumcision made one a Jew (religion).

Doctor.Sphinx said:
According to this logic, Muslim men (not to mention Egyptians, Arabs etc.) were all Jews. But Israelite women were not.

Dave L said:
No, God did not command them to circumcise as he did Abraham.

By this logic, you accept that your initial statement was incorrect, and circumcision alone did not make one a Jew (religion).

Hazelelponi · Sep 14, 2018

A71 said:
Jesus's comments were addressed to God but they were addressed also to those crucifying him. The point is not to be semantic, it is to know who he was referring to. Those crucifying him were the Romans. So, to be 100% unambiguous, Jesus's comments were aimed at the Romans.

Regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 7&8

55 But he, (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Chp8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

The Holy Spirit, through The whole church, of which Saint Stephen was exemplary, witnessed to Jesus being God, which the Jews took as blasphemy, and lead to them enforcing the death penalty.

Jesus forgave those who called him a liar, (blasphemy against him), but said that those who called the Holy Spirit, i.e Stephen and really the whole church, a liar would not be forgiven.

You

I'm very unclear where this theology is from, because it doesn't seem to be from the Bible.

Again, the Servant is not the equal to the Master. Our Master is our Lord Jesus the Christ, Our Master is the Holy Spirit, Our Master is God. And the Three are One.

We have no equality to the Holy Spirit. Killing us for our faith isn't blasphemy..

If you read what you quoted it is written:

"Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." Acts 7:60

This is forgiveness. This is our job as human beings. Stephen forgave them before he died.

God forgave us and our desire is always for others to have a saving knowledge of Christ, and the same forgiveness we received no matter what they do to us.

Saul, as you also saw in the verses you quoted, who during the death of Stephen looked on without word thinking his murder righteous, Saul, persecuter of Christians, went on to become Paul, Apostle of God. A giant of faith who we all strive to be like.

Forgiven by God for persecuting Christians. For being complicit in their murders. Yet a forgiven son. On earth as it is in heaven. We forgive as we were forgiven.

To my knowledge nowhere in the Bible does it declare what your suggesting.

And if Jesus's comments were aimed at Romans He would have said, your sins are forgiven you like we see in Luke 7:48. He didn't. That is telling.

Dave L · Sep 14, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
By this logic, you accept that your initial statement was incorrect, and circumcision alone did not make one a Jew (religion).

People circumcise babies today, but it does not make them a Jew. But when God ordered Abraham to circumcise his household, that made all of them his covenant seed. These became Israel also called Jews. When Christ abolished ritual Jewish circumcision, all reverted back to gentile status.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. This includes Judaism. Especially the oral traditions that became the Talmud. It has nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Um...the New Covenant was to the house of JUDAH and ISRAEL ( Jeremiah 31:31–34 ). The gentiles are grafted in ( Romans 11 ). You are saying that Rabbinic Judaism is true Judaism.

Dave L · Sep 14, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Um...the New Covenant was to the house of JUDAH and ISRAEL ( Jeremiah 31:31–34 ). The gentiles are grafted in ( Romns 11 ). You are saying that Rabbinic Judaism is true Judaism.

But Christ abolished the law. We are not under any part of it. It is only for instruction and commentary in the New Covenant.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 14, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I notice you are EO.
Does the EOC practice Judaism, including keeping the 7th day sabbath?

Absolutely...it is the continuation of Judaism. Yes, the 7th day is THE Sabbath day in EO, that has never changed.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
But Christ abolished the law. We are not under any part of it. It is only for instruction and commentary in the New Covenant.

then you need to read what the new Covenant is...the law is written on our hearts now.

Dave L · Sep 14, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
then you need to read what the new Covenant is...the law is written on our hearts now.

But it is the two great commandments, love for God and People that are in the heart. The Ten Commandments are in the mind as instruction and commentary.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
But it is the two great commandments, love for God and People that are in the heart. The Ten Commandments are in the mind as instruction and commentary.

Like I have said before, the 10 Commandments show love to God and man. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Dave L · Sep 14, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Like I have said before, the 10 Commandments show love to God and man. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

The born again always has the two great commandments written in their heart. But God used wicked unbelievers for temporal ends. To these he addressed the Ten Commandments under threat of death, and promised temporal rewards, harnessing their greed for good ends.

When Christ came, he removed the wicked unbelievers and the Ten Commandments, leaving only believers with the two great commandments in their hearts. The two great commandments are the basis of all NT ethics. And require the exact opposite of what the Ten Commandments forbade. We do not steal, so we give instead. We do not kill, we love enemies instead...etc., etc.

Doctor.Sphinx · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
People circumcise babies today, but it does not make them a Jew. But when God ordered Abraham to circumcise his household, that made all of them his covenant seed. These became Israel also called Jews. When Christ abolished ritual Jewish circumcision, all reverted back to gentile status.

I still think there's a difference between practicing circumcision or other traditions because one is trying to follow the law, and doing these for traditions sake (e.g. Christmas celebration traditions). Paul's circumcision of Timothy and following some of the Jewish traditions says to me these are not bad of themselves - but bad if you are placing your faith in them.

DamianWarS · Sep 14, 2018

Dave L said:
Daughters of circumcised Jewish men were included in the community as well as wives of Jewish men. But any boy not circumcised was cut off (excommunicated).

cut it off or be cut off

Dave L · Sep 14, 2018

DamianWarS said:
cut it off or be cut off

The uncircumcised were to be excommunicated.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 14, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said: ↑
So what about circumcised Jews who believe in Yeshua? Are we not Jews?

Yeshua HaDerekh said: ↑
Hebrew Christian? Belief in our Messiah is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism. Phoney theology?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I notice you are EO.
Does the EOC practice Judaism, including keeping the 7th day sabbath?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Absolutely...it is the continuation of Judaism. Yes, the 7th day is THE Sabbath day in EO, that has never changed.

Thanks for that info. I decided to look into the EOC and the Sabbath. The RC's, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc appear to have a similar way of worshiping, but I had never heard of Saturday being the day of worship for those denominations, like for instance, the SDAs, Messianics. Interesting.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/hebrew-orthodox.6864427/
Hebrew Orthodox?

First of all I agree that we need to focus on the word convert. That means to change over. Orthodoxy is the fullfillment of Judaism and I think many of our rituals even attest to this. I think if a Jewish person (As long as they were orthodox and not some new-age version of the religion) came to Orthodoxy and viewed Orthdoxy as the fullfilled version of their religion, their past baggage could be of a great spiritual aid. They may more naturally appreciate certain deepr truths of CHristianity that other converts or cradles might not be able to appreciate. But, they need to be ready to realize that this is fullfilled judaism and that to convert necessarily means to go against what you always felt comfrotable with. Jewish people, just as protestant converts of converts from Catholicism need to set aside what they think when converting and accept the Orthodox Way. There are many things as a former protestant that I origianlly thought shoudl change. I would think "But, I think this is wonderful about the Lutheran Church and there is nothing UNorthodox about it, in fact it seems better, so why can't everyone see how brilliant my ideas are?" But, the BIGGEST (but not only) problem with that POV is that I am missig the big picture and I am coming in unwilling to learn and ready to teach. Who am I to think I should teach the Church something? Arrogant. And I ddin't even realize it. I think the biggest stumbling block for anyone to come to Christ is theology and then pride. Once one realizes the OC is the CHurch, if they realize what that means (and especially if a Jewish person realizes who Jesus truly is) then they won't care about anything else except learning how to be Orthodox.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/orthodox-and-sabbath.979383/
Orthodox and Sabbath

Yes, the Orthodox Church has kept some of the Judiac traditions. I am not the best qualified at all to answer this, but I thought I'd try to give you something, since we have a lot of Saturday sleepy-head slackers around here......

Anyway, I just know that someone has a link to great information on this......but I'll relate what little bit I know.

1. Orthodox acknowledge that sabbath begins sundown on Fri., just as the jews did. However, we believe Christ is the fulfillment of the sabbath, as He is the fulfullfment of all things in the OT. So, we worship on Sunday in acknowledgement of Christ's glorious resurrection. We do also have a Sat. eve prayer service called Vespers.

2. We observe Passover in a sense, only we call it Pascha. Again, since Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb, and He has freed us from sin (instead of just Egypt in OT). So we celebrate His death and resurrection at Pascha (Easter), which ir preceeded by 40 days of strict fasting and prayer (Great Lent).

3. We do fast twice a week as the jews used to (not sure if they still do), but we fast on different days (W/FR).

I think there are other feasts that have Judaic roots, but I'm too much of a newbie to the faith to tell you about them. If I am inaccurate on anything, someone please jump in and correct me! I'll do some snooping around to see if I can find links to things

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/orthodox-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath.5169680/
orthodox and the seventh-day sabbath

As far as the Christian Church is concerned, we are not sabbatarian - nor are we in any part - part of the "remnant" (EGW). We do not hold Saturday to be holy because it was given to the Jews so that they can remember that they came out of slavery out of Misir (Egypt) (Deut. V) and it was a sign between God and Jews.

Ten commandments, including the fourth, were the teacher until Christ (Gal III, 24), when He defeated death there is no more teacher (tutor, pedagogue) but Christ. The ministry of the death has passed away and the new covenant is now ours (II Cor. 3).

We, according to an ancient custom, gather in the First day of the week, the Lord's Holy and Great Eight day because it is proper and right to do so.

Christian Church is not a slave to letters written on the stone, nor is she a Jewish Synagogue.

If you have further questions, please feel free to ask.

Word on Seventh Day Adventists (SDA)

SDA is teaching that Sabbath (Saturday) is still in power. In these last - days, the Decalogue (Ten Commandments) and those who obey that law Sabbath being the major sign of that obedience - will have the sign of God and "worshipping of Sunday" will be the mark of the beast - all those who don't have the mark of the beast will be prosecuted.
SDA is teaching that they are "the Church of the remnant" and that in the last day they will win and everyone else will "burn until there is fuel to burn". SDA teaches soul sleep, that is - no hell theory.
They have a prophet - EGW (Ellen Gould White) who had visions and is "the Spirit of prophecy" - also a sign that they are a "real Church".
SDA teaches that USA will throw away the State-Church separation and that all Protestants and Roman Catholics will unite under the Roman Pope (who is Antichrist due to "one of his titles" being VICARIVS FILII DEI - Vicar of Son of God - the Latin letters adding to 666 - where V=5, I=1 and so on). All of these (Protestants and RC and Orthodox I guess, for we worship Sunday also, plus we are idol worshippers and the usual) will prosecute and kill SDA members when the Sunday Lwa is passed (law requiring for Sunday to be observed as Sabbath) and that then Christ will come and that will be the end of "great controversy" which is the name of one of many books that their prophet wrote.

They have very interesting evangelisation programme which uses lots of brain numbing mathematics to prove that they are the true Church.

They used to be same sect as the JW but they split.

At first, pioneers of SDA held that Christ was not God and that He is Archangel Michael this is still held among many.

They live according to the Jewish (Old Testament) dietary law. And consider alcohol, smoking to be sin.

They also teach that Christ entered into Holy of Holies (in Heaven) in 1844 and is doing service for us and that soon the days of mercy will be closed and the "number" of the saved will be fulfilled.

EGW was found to have plagiarised many of her work for a prophet she was very busy copying works of other people even Roman Catholics.

SDA is very active in Orthodox Countries, especially due to a fact that communist governments of earlier days were tolerating them, whilst - at the same time - banning and prosecuting Orthodox. Since the fall of communism, luckily, their number has remained steady and in Serbia actually fell somewhat.

I was an SDA for some time.

Unlike many of you (like former Lutherans for example) who have serious respect for your former religious affiliation, I am very negative towards SDA due to many things that happened to me when I told them that I am questioning their theories, for this my behaviour towards SDA is somewhat militant - for this I apologise.

Hazelelponi · Sep 14, 2018

A71 said:
Or maybe I do.
Judaism is the religion that Paul followed while he went around on hate-fuelled killing spree against us.
You one of they?

Did you realize your a Jew if indeed you are a disciple of the Christ and filled with God's Holy Spirit?

Paul said in Romans 2:29 :

"No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God."

There is a fulfilled Judaism which we call Christianity as it's a Christ/Messiah centered Judaism, and there is a Rabbinical Judaism which is the written law practiced by the Pharisees and Sadducees ect.

Jesus himself was a Rabbi. We get all our religion and faith from Judaism, the difference between Torah Jews and fulfilled Christianity is we believe the Messiah has come among us and now salvation is offered to all, Jew and Gentile alike.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 14, 2018

A71 said: ↑
Or maybe I do.
Judaism is the religion that Paul followed while he went around on hate-fuelled killing spree against us.
You one of they?

Egged on by, guess who, the corrupt murderous Judean religious rulers...

Acts 9:
1 And Saul, yet breathing of threatening and slaughter to the disciples of the Lord, having gone to the chief priest,
2 did ask from him letters to Damascus, unto the synagogues, that if he may find any being of the Way, both men and women,
he may bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Hazelelponi said:
Did you realize your a Jew if indeed you are a disciple of the Christ and filled with God's Holy Spirit?
There is a fulfilled Judaism which we call Christianity as it's a Christ/Messiah centered Judaism, and there is a Rabbinical Judaism which is the written law practiced by the Pharisees and Sadducees ect.

Exactly....Correctomundo!

The great Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 follows immediately after His thrashing the Judean religious rulers.......

[Fwiw, Paul never uses "gehenna #1067" in his Epistles. The Epistle of James 3:6 is the only place outside of the Gospels that does]

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of youselves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Revelation 14:11]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

Matthew 3:7 [Revelation 6:16, 17]
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>?

Revelation 6:
16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, ‘Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb-kin,’
17 because come did the great day of His wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>,
and who is able to stand?[Malachi 3:2]

Malachi 3:2
And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is able to stand in His appearing?
For He is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller.

Hazelelponi · Sep 14, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Exactly....Correctomundo!

The great Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 follows immediately after His thrashing the Judean religious rulers.......

[Fwiw, Paul never uses "gehenna #1067" in his Epistles. The Epistle of James 3:6 is the only place outside of the Gospels that does]

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of youselves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Revelation 14:11]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

Matthew 3:7 [Revelation 6:16, 17]
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>?

Revelation 6:
16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, ‘Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb-kin,’
17 because come did the great day of His wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>,
and who is able to stand?[Malachi 3:2]

Malachi 3:2
And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is able to stand in His appearing?
For He is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller.

Who Jesus "thrashed" as you put it, were people who wore their religion to be seen of men. Who taught religion and religious precepts without themselves following what they demanded others follow. i.e. hypocrites.

They were those who allowed the Temple of God to become a money making endeavor, Who demanded women to be stoned for adultery while ignoring their own sin, who taught the following of so many laws not even they could follow it, who divided their tithes to the minutiae but didn't have any room in their hearts for the love of God.

The Pharisees are all around us today, in many forms and fashions they just call themselves Christian now, all the while they are devoid of the Spirit of the Living God.

Using religion as a means of veiled racism is appalling, for real. And its not at all from God. 1 Corinthians 13:2-8

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 14, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Thanks for that info. I decided to look into the EOC and the Sabbath. The RC's, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc appear to have a similar way of worshiping, but I had never heard of Saturday being the day of worship for those denominations, like for instance, the SDAs, Messianics. Interesting.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/hebrew-orthodox.6864427/
Hebrew Orthodox?

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/orthodox-and-sabbath.979383/
Orthodox and Sabbath

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/orthodox-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath.5169680/
orthodox and the seventh-day sabbath

Well no, it is not a day of "worship" per se, it is a day of REST. Sabbath literally mean REST.

Hazelelponi · Sep 14, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Well no, it is not a day of "worship" per se, it is a day of REST. Sabbath literally mean REST.

Just curious, how then are you defining Hebrews 4?

As Jesus is our Sabbath rest, we rest from the labors of the works of the law.

While we work now in Christ in concert with the Holy Spirit who indwells us, (we rest in Him and HE works in us) it's not like works under the law which was a yoke and a burden. We are now set free and in a rest while in Christ Jesus.

Why then, do you observe things such as the Sabbath?

Why Jews were made, not Born

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

:sighing:

Well-Known Member

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Well-Known Member

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Well-Known Member

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

:sighing:

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

:sighing:

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

:sighing:

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