Perfect Person

disciple Clint said:

Adam and Eve prior to the fall.

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Genesis 2:25 NLT
Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame.

mukk_in said:

Joseph, the golden boy .

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Genesis 42:3-38 NLT
So Joseph's ten older brothers went down to Egypt to buy grain. [4] But Jacob wouldn't let Joseph's younger brother, Benjamin, go with them, for fear some harm might come to him. [5] So Jacob's sons arrived in Egypt along with others to buy food, for the famine was in Canaan as well. [6] Since Joseph was governor of all Egypt and in charge of selling grain to all the people, it was to him that his brothers came. When they arrived, they bowed before him with their faces to the ground. [7] Joseph recognized his brothers instantly, but he pretended to be a stranger and spoke harshly to them. "Where are you from?" he demanded. "From the land of Canaan," they replied. "We have come to buy food." [8] Although Joseph recognized his brothers, they didn't recognize him. [9] And he remembered the dreams he'd had about them many years before. He said to them, "You are spies! You have come to see how vulnerable our land has become." [10] "No, my lord!" they exclaimed. "Your servants have simply come to buy food. [11] We are all brothers-members of the same family. We are honest men, sir! We are not spies!" [12] "Yes, you are!" Joseph insisted. "You have come to see how vulnerable our land has become." [13] "Sir," they said, "there are actually twelve of us. We, your servants, are all brothers, sons of a man living in the land of Canaan. Our youngest brother is back there with our father right now, and one of our brothers is no longer with us." [14] But Joseph insisted, "As I said, you are spies! [15] This is how I will test your story. I swear by the life of Pharaoh that you will never leave Egypt unless your youngest brother comes here! [16] One of you must go and get your brother. I'll keep the rest of you here in prison. Then we'll find out whether or not your story is true. By the life of Pharaoh, if it turns out that you don't have a younger brother, then I'll know you are spies." [17] So Joseph put them all in prison for three days. [18] On the third day Joseph said to them, "I am a God-fearing man. If you do as I say, you will live. [19] If you really are honest men, choose one of your brothers to remain in prison. The rest of you may go home with grain for your starving families. [20] But you must bring your youngest brother back to me. This will prove that you are telling the truth, and you will not die." To this they agreed. [21] Speaking among themselves, they said, "Clearly we are being punished because of what we did to Joseph long ago. We saw his anguish when he pleaded for his life, but we wouldn't listen. That's why we're in this trouble." [22] "Didn't I tell you not to sin against the boy?" Reuben asked. "But you wouldn't listen. And now we have to answer for his blood!" [23] Of course, they didn't know that Joseph understood them, for he had been speaking to them through an interpreter. [24] Now he turned away from them and began to weep. When he regained his composure, he spoke to them again. Then he chose Simeon from among them and had him tied up right before their eyes. [25] Joseph then ordered his servants to fill the men's sacks with grain, but he also gave secret instructions to return each brother's payment at the top of his sack. He also gave them supplies for their journey home. [26] So the brothers loaded their donkeys with the grain and headed for home. [27] But when they stopped for the night and one of them opened his sack to get grain for his donkey, he found his money in the top of his sack. [28] "Look!" he exclaimed to his brothers. "My money has been returned; it's here in my sack!" Then their hearts sank. Trembling, they said to each other, "What has God done to us?" [29] When the brothers came to their father, Jacob, in the land of Canaan, they told him everything that had happened to them. [30] "The man who is governor of the land spoke very harshly to us," they told him. "He accused us of being spies scouting the land. [31] But we said, 'We are honest men, not spies. [32] We are twelve brothers, sons of one father. One brother is no longer with us, and the youngest is at home with our father in the land of Canaan.' [33] "Then the man who is governor of the land told us, 'This is how I will find out if you are honest men. Leave one of your brothers here with me, and take grain for your starving families and go on home. [34] But you must bring your youngest brother back to me. Then I will know you are honest men and not spies. Then I will give you back your brother, and you may trade freely in the land.'" [35] As they emptied out their sacks, there in each man's sack was the bag of money he had paid for the grain! The brothers and their father were terrified when they saw the bags of money. [36] Jacob exclaimed, "You are robbing me of my children! Joseph is gone! Simeon is gone! And now you want to take Benjamin, too. Everything is going against me!" [37] Then Reuben said to his father, "You may kill my two sons if I don't bring Benjamin back to you. I'll be responsible for him, and I promise to bring him back." [38] But Jacob replied, "My son will not go down with you. His brother Joseph is dead, and he is all I have left. If anything should happen to him on your journey, you would send this grieving, white-haired man to his grave."

disciple Clint said:

Yes, because they were made perfect by God and they had no sin to be ashamed of. So they had no reason to try to cover themselves from the eyes of God prior to the fall.

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So what changed?

Genesis 3:5-7 NLT
"God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil." [6] The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. [7] At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

disciple Clint said:

Yes, because they were made perfect by God and they had no sin to be ashamed of. So they had no reason to try to cover themselves from the eyes of God prior to the fall.

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Maybe checkout these sites:

http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html

https://www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201510/5-factors-make-you-feel-shame?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201510/5-factors-make-you-feel-shame

Shame is the inner experience of being "not wanted." It is feeling worthless, rejected, cast-out. Guilt is believing that one has done something bad; shame is believing that one is bad. Shame is believing that one is not loved because one is not lovable. Shame always carries with it the sense that there is nothing one can do to purge its burdensome and toxic presence. Shame cannot be remedied, it must be somehow endured, absorbed, gilded, minimized or denied. Shame is so painful, so debilitating that persons develop a thousand coping strategies, conscious and unconscious, numbing and destructive, to avoid its tortures. Shame is the worst possible thing that can happen, because shame, in its profoundest meaning, conveys that one is not fit to live in one's own community.

The healthiest way to cope is to own it and allow shame to dissipate with time. Like all intense events, shame eventually fades, to be replaced by other emotions. No emotion lasts forever. Second, alter the standards, or rules. If no standard has been violated, then one has no reason to worry about shame. Third, avoid the self-blame game. The more one can blame an external source, the more likely one will avoid feeling shame. Finally, confess. In confession, we go to others and tell them about an event that has shamed us. Confession is associated with the concept of forgiveness and love. It serves as a way of dissolving shame through the act of redemption.

Make new parents. You must learn from experience that you are not unworthy of belonging to the human community and that in order to heal your shame you must create a healthy family for yourself. Think of an occasion when you have stood against those who would make you feel bad about yourself. Think of how you counted on the thought of a friend, or lover, or teacher whose opinion you could depend on to back you in your struggle. It made a difference. It made the crucial difference is keeping you going and anchoring the experience as a positive for you.

You must create a new family. Perhaps this sounds strange, but you are already doing it--clubs, churches, professional societies are efforts; lovers, friends, marriages are efforts; even cliques, cults, and gangs are efforts. The success or failure of your journey to heal your shame will be crucially influenced by your ability to surround yourself with those who think you are lovable, who support you, who back you up in the way you lead your life, who can convey to you that they are for you even when they don't like your behavior--and toward whom you can healthily reciprocate.

disciple Clint said:

Yes, because they were made perfect by God and they had no sin to be ashamed of. So they had no reason to try to cover themselves from the eyes of God prior to the fall.

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Maybe a better question is who where the two trees?

One the Tree of Life, the other the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What "fruit" does each of them produce?

The Tree of Live produces no shame.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil produces shame.

Do you think this story is taking about physical trees or people?

Do you think the fruit from these trees are physical fruit or character traits/attributes?

Love &Forgiveness said:

Maybe a better question is who where the two trees?

One the Tree of Life, the other the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What "fruit" does each of them produce?

The Tree of Live produces no shame.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil produces shame.

Do you think this story is taking about physical trees or people?

Do you think the fruit from these trees are physical fruit or character traits/attributes?

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How does this passage fit into the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

Ezekiel 28:12-19 NLT
"Son of man, sing this funeral song for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty. [13] You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone- red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald- all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. [14] I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. [15] "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. [16] Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. [17] Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. [18] You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. [19] All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more."

Love &Forgiveness said:

Maybe a better question is who where the two trees?

One the Tree of Life, the other the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What "fruit" does each of them produce?

The Tree of Live produces no shame.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil produces shame.

Do you think this story is taking about physical trees or people?

Do you think the fruit from these trees are physical fruit or character traits/attributes?

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Notice how God says "Who told you that you were naked?"

Genesis 3:11 NLT
"Who told you that you were naked?" the LORD God asked. "Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?"

My point in the discussion about Adam and Eve is was being naked a sin? When they listened to God it wasn't. But when they listened to the devil it was. One tree is called the Tree of Life and there was no shame in their nakedness. The other tree of knowledge of good and evil there was shame in their nakedness. What was the nakedness?

Halbhh said:

Read again, but more fully (not to make a point and be 'right' and make someone 'wrong' and other prideful things, but to gain). In fact, really, to even have a partial correct understanding, we usually must read full passages, and better full books from chapter 1 verse 1 all the way through. But, I think possibly for this one it will be enough for you to read fully both of the chapters through.

https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/1.htm (Who is the First and the Last? You don't have to have total knowledge, but don't miss this part.)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/19.htm

Why that much, 2 chapters?

If you do, then you'll see why. It's the minimum amount, perhaps not even enough, to have a chance to get the situation accurately. Do you imagine in the fullness of the entire situation of all in chapter 19, you'd stand there casually? If so, you are far braver than I in that way. Perhaps it would help to have a sense of this all happening in the moment, not a cool reflection later, as if you have 20 minutes to decide what to do.

But, for anyone just reading this post only, see post #3 if you wondered if John was 'perfect' for John's own wording on that.

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What does this mean?
For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Somewhere it says that Jesus will judge us by our hidden motives.

It is interesting how Esau was "hated" because he ate the soup when he was starving, and David was justified when he ate the showbread when he and his men where starving.

Halbhh said:

Read again, but more fully (not to make a point and be 'right' and make someone 'wrong' and other prideful things, but to gain). In fact, really, to even have a partial correct understanding, we usually must read full passages, and better full books from chapter 1 verse 1 all the way through. But, I think possibly for this one it will be enough for you to read fully both of the chapters through.

https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/1.htm (Who is the First and the Last? You don't have to have total knowledge, but don't miss this part.)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/19.htm

Why that much, 2 chapters?

If you do, then you'll see why. It's the minimum amount, perhaps not even enough, to have a chance to get the situation accurately. Do you imagine in the fullness of the entire situation of all in chapter 19, you'd stand there casually? If so, you are far braver than I in that way. Perhaps it would help to have a sense of this all happening in the moment, not a cool reflection later, as if you have 20 minutes to decide what to do.

But, for anyone just reading this post only, see post #3 if you wondered if John was 'perfect' for John's own wording on that.

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1 Corinthians 8:1-3 NLT
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that "we all have knowledge" about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church. [2] Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much. [3] But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Halbhh said:

Read again, but more fully (not to make a point and be 'right' and make someone 'wrong' and other prideful things, but to gain). In fact, really, to even have a partial correct understanding, we usually must read full passages, and better full books from chapter 1 verse 1 all the way through. But, I think possibly for this one it will be enough for you to read fully both of the chapters through.

https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/1.htm (Who is the First and the Last? You don't have to have total knowledge, but don't miss this part.)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/19.htm

Why that much, 2 chapters?

If you do, then you'll see why. It's the minimum amount, perhaps not even enough, to have a chance to get the situation accurately. Do you imagine in the fullness of the entire situation of all in chapter 19, you'd stand there casually? If so, you are far braver than I in that way. Perhaps it would help to have a sense of this all happening in the moment, not a cool reflection later, as if you have 20 minutes to decide what to do.

But, for anyone just reading this post only, see post #3 if you wondered if John was 'perfect' for John's own wording on that.

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1 Corinthians 4:5 NLT
So don't make judgments about anyone ahead of time-before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.

Jeremiah 17:10 NLT
But I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve."

Halbhh said:

There was no wrong at all in John being overwhelmed after all of chapter 19 to just fall to his knees in awe finally -- I probably would too, trying to imagine that overwhelming glory happening in this chapter. But, the angel told him to rise no doubt John did. John has no blame here.
(To other readers just seeing this post, see post #3 on what John wrote on whether any have been perfect through life besides Christ.)

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The question I have is what is perfect?

Halbhh said:

There was no wrong at all in John being overwhelmed after all of chapter 19 to just fall to his knees in awe finally -- I probably would too, trying to imagine that overwhelming glory happening in this chapter. But, the angel told him to rise no doubt John did. John has no blame here.
(To other readers just seeing this post, see post #3 on what John wrote on whether any have been perfect through life besides Christ.)

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Luke 9:54-55 NLT
When James and John saw this, they said to Jesus, "Lord, should we call down fire from heaven to burn them up?" [55] But Jesus turned and rebuked them.

Halbhh said:

There was no wrong at all in John being overwhelmed after all of chapter 19 to just fall to his knees in awe finally -- I probably would too, trying to imagine that overwhelming glory happening in this chapter. But, the angel told him to rise no doubt John did. John has no blame here.
(To other readers just seeing this post, see post #3 on what John wrote on whether any have been perfect through life besides Christ.)

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How do we be perfect? What did Jesus say the greatest commandments where? This is basically what the Ten Commandments teach us.

Luke 10:26-28 NLT
Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" [27] The man answered, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" [28] "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!"

What is the point of Jesus teachings? It is not what you do, but why you do them. Your motivation.

Jesus said if you have lust in your heart you broke the Law of adultree.

If you hate someone you murdered them.

Jesus said it is the heart that matters.

Jesus called the Pharisees white washed tombs. Clean on the outside but dirty on the inside.