Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

OzSpen · Sep 13, 2018

A_Thinker said:
The speaker make (4) basic points ...

1) The gift of tongues is "speaking in a known language"
2) The gift of tongues is not an indicator of spiritual superiority
3) The gift of tongues depends upon the gifting of the Holy Spirit
4) There is no incidence of the "praying in tongues" in the scripture.
5) If tongues are expressed in a public setting, there should be an interpreter.

I pretty much agree with what he says, but I do think that Paul speaks of praying in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14

I agree that the video supports a biblical view of tongues except where he says that there is no example of 'praying in tongues' in Scripture.

To the contrary, 1 Cor 14:2 (NIV) states, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'.

Since they utter mysteries by the Spirit in speaking to God, there is no indication they were speaking languages that people understood in 1 Cor 14:2.

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

Thanks for the points list. That makes it easier to respond in detail.

1) The gift of tongues is "speaking in a known language"
Nope. Unless angelic tongues is a known language. And sometimes tongues is more like a spiritual groaning. (Romans 8:26) Is that a known language?

2) The gift of tongues is not an indicator of spiritual superiority
Tongues is the gateway to the prophetic gifts. The Apostle said we should seek the greater gifts. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is part of the process. However, this doesn't mean that those with gifts should THINK of themselves, or act as though they are superior. Even though they could be considered so.

3) The gift of tongues depends upon the gifting of the Holy Spirit
There are at least five kinds of tongues. See my topic on the subject. The gift of tongues is only one of them. The kind of tongues spoken of as a gift in first Corinthians chapter twelve is the kind of tongues used to address the whole congregation, preferably with interpretation. (I'll get comments on that) The tongues speaker has no control over those with the gift of the interpretation of tongues. That's why I say, preferably.

4) There is no incidence of the "praying in tongues" in the scripture.
Seriously? Could we define praying as speaking to God? (I hope so)

1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

5) If tongues are expressed in a public setting, there should be an interpreter. Only if the tongues are addressed to the whole congregation. There is no reason to expect those who are praying in tongues as a worship activity to have interpretation.

It seems that all five of these points are an attempt to limit or prevent tongues from being expressed by believers. This is tragic and divisive.

Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8). The NT pattern is the baptism of the Holy Spirit after water baptism. How many baptisms have you had? One or both?

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

tdidymas · Sep 13, 2018

OzSpen said:
I agree that the video supports a biblical view of tongues except where he says that there is no example of 'praying in tongues' in Scripture.

To the contrary, 1 Cor 14:2 (NIV) states, 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'.

Since they utter mysteries by the Spirit in speaking to God, there is no indication they were speaking languages that people understood in 1 Cor 14:2.

Your interpretation is out of context of the wider context of scripture. The precedent for the kind of tongues in 1 Cor. is Acts 2 where they obviously spoke languages people understood. There is no indication in scripture that the type of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14. I agree that praying in tongues was speaking to God as correctly read in 1 Cor. 14, but there is actually no indication that the tongues were not a human language. The "mysteries" are simply things unknown to the speaker because the speaker is miraculously speaking a language not learned by his intellect. The apostle obviously allows for the revealing of the "mysteries" by way of interpretation in the context of ch. 14. So the interpretation could be either by someone who happens to know the language, or by someone receiving a miraculous gift of interpretation. In either case, it would be a translation of the message. In the NT cases of this, it was mostly praises to God and praises of God (speaking of the mighty acts of God). Therefore it could be prayers or testimonies. The speaker speaks to God, since they don't know what they are saying (mysteries). The interpreter then might reveal who the audience of the message is for. In the case of Acts 2, the audience was the crowd.

But what is commonly spoken by "tongues" speakers in modern times is not a miraculous gift, since anyone can do it if they try hard enough. It's a human phenomenon that is done by Christians and non-Christians alike. I try to get people to record their "tongues" to be evaluated by a linguist, but no one has done it yet.
TD

tdidymas · Sep 13, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for the points list. That makes it easier to respond in detail.

1) The gift of tongues is "speaking in a known language"
Nope. Unless angelic tongues is a known language. And sometimes tongues is more like a spiritual groaning. (Romans 8:26) Is that a known language?

"angelic tongues" is a language known by angels, but still a language. Not the random syllables without meaning spoken by most "tongue talkers" today. But referring to 1 Cor. 13, Paul is using the term as a hyperbole - that is, as an exaggerative example, the same as he uses other illustrations, such as body being burned, etc. It's all exaggerative language for the purpose of proving the point that love is above everything, including what men think is great. He is not suggesting that anyone speaking tongues could actually speak an angelic language, as that is an interpretation imposed on the text.

Regarding Rom. 8:26, it says "cannot be uttered," therefore it is not talking about tongues-speaking. Incidentally, "tongues" in the NT means "language" in that context.

2) The gift of tongues is not an indicator of spiritual superiority

Click to expand...

Tongues is the gateway to the prophetic gifts. The Apostle said we should seek the greater gifts. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is part of the process. However, this doesn't mean that those with gifts should THINK of themselves, or act as though they are superior. Even though they could be considered so.

Those having the gifts are considered superior only by those who are yet carnal, according to Paul in the context of 1 Cor. The one who is spiritually superior is the one who loves, who bears the fruit of the Spirit. Paul wrote in that context that the Corinthians who were speaking tongues out of order were carnal, therefore that gift is not an indicator of spiritual superiority.

3) The gift of tongues depends upon the gifting of the Holy Spirit

Click to expand...

There are at least five kinds of tongues. See my topic on the subject. The gift of tongues is only one of them. The kind of tongues spoken of as a gift in first Corinthians chapter twelve is the kind of tongues used to address the whole congregation, preferably with interpretation. (I'll get comments on that) The tongues speaker has no control over those with the gift of the interpretation of tongues. That's why I say, preferably.

I read your link. I fully agree with you that the hearing miracle theory in Acts 2 is incorrect. It is unfortunate that most of those who hold to that theory get very angry when I try to correct them on it.

I think you are confused between the kind of gift that tongues is, and its purpose or agenda. In the context of the NT, we can see various agendas for the gift, although it is the same gift. In Acts 2, it was for proving to the unbelieving crowd that the disciples of Christ had received the Spirit. In other places of Acts, it was for proving to the apostles that various people groups had received the Spirit the same as they had, Samaritans and gentiles alike. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul mentions praying or singing to God in tongues (a language unknown to the speaker), or speaking a message to the church (via interpretation). That would be different agendas, but there is no indication that the kind of gift it is has changed from the beginning, according to the wider context of the NT. I disagree that different purposes for tongues necessitates it being different kinds.

4) There is no incidence of the "praying in tongues" in the scripture.

Click to expand...

Seriously? Could we define praying as speaking to God? (I hope so)

1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

I fully agree that this statement in the video was incorrect.

5) If tongues are expressed in a public setting, there should be an interpreter.

Click to expand...

Only if the tongues are addressed to the whole congregation. There is no reason to expect those who are praying in tongues as a worship activity to have interpretation.

Paul wrote that if an unbeliever enters and sees you all speaking in tongues, will he not think you mad? This is a clear indicator that tongues without interpretation is not to be spoken in the congregation, for any reason whatsoever. The unbeliever, or unlearned, can't tell the difference between a time of "worship" and a time of "addressing the congregation," since they are unlearned and will not be able to discern the segregation of times, that is, reasons why people are doing what they are doing. It is confusion as the apostle said it was.

It seems that all five of these points are an attempt to limit or prevent tongues from being expressed by believers. This is tragic and divisive.

This is a false judgment, and is slanderous of the video author. The author is trying to clarify what the Bible says about the subject, but here you are judging him to have an evil motive "to prevent tongues from being expressed." You further judge it by saying it "is tragic and divisive." Your prejudice in this matter is evident.

Also, your interpretation of scripture is obviously based on personal subjective experience imposed on the text, and not on correctly extracting the original meaning from the text. I suggest you do a lot more study before you try to teach others.

Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8). The NT pattern is the baptism of the Holy Spirit after water baptism. How many baptisms have you had? One or both?

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

We are not forbidding Biblical tongues being spoken. We are writing against modern glossolalia which is a human phenomenon and not Biblical tongues, as well as against the violations of scriptural commands and advice done by many of these groups.
TD

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

tdidymas said:
"angelic tongues" is a language known by angels, but still a language. Not the random syllables without meaning spoken by most "tongue talkers" today. But referring to 1 Cor. 13, Paul is using the term as a hyperbole - that is, as an exaggerative example, the same as he uses other illustrations, such as body being burned, etc. It's all exaggerative language for the purpose of proving the point that love is above everything, including what men think is great. He is not suggesting that anyone speaking tongues could actually speak an angelic language, as that is an interpretation imposed on the text.

Regarding Rom. 8:26, it says "cannot be uttered," therefore it is not talking about tongues-speaking. Incidentally, "tongues" in the NT means "language" in that context.

Those having the gifts are considered superior only by those who are yet carnal, according to Paul in the context of 1 Cor. The one who is spiritually superior is the one who loves, who bears the fruit of the Spirit. Paul wrote in that context that the Corinthians who were speaking tongues out of order were carnal, therefore that gift is not an indicator of spiritual superiority.

I read your link. I fully agree with you that the hearing miracle theory in Acts 2 is incorrect. It is unfortunate that most of those who hold to that theory get very angry when I try to correct them on it.

I think you are confused between the kind of gift that tongues is, and its purpose or agenda. In the context of the NT, we can see various agendas for the gift, although it is the same gift. In Acts 2, it was for proving to the unbelieving crowd that the disciples of Christ had received the Spirit. In other places of Acts, it was for proving to the apostles that various people groups had received the Spirit the same as they had, Samaritans and gentiles alike. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul mentions praying or singing to God in tongues (a language unknown to the speaker), or speaking a message to the church (via interpretation). That would be different agendas, but there is no indication that the kind of gift it is has changed from the beginning, according to the wider context of the NT. I disagree that different purposes for tongues necessitates it being different kinds.

I fully agree that this statement in the video was incorrect.

Paul wrote that if an unbeliever enters and sees you all speaking in tongues, will he not think you mad? This is a clear indicator that tongues without interpretation is not to be spoken in the congregation, for any reason whatsoever. The unbeliever, or unlearned, can't tell the difference between a time of "worship" and a time of "addressing the congregation," since they are unlearned and will not be able to discern the segregation of times, that is, reasons why people are doing what they are doing. It is confusion as the apostle said it was.

This is a false judgment, and is slanderous of the video author. The author is trying to clarify what the Bible says about the subject, but here you are judging him to have an evil motive "to prevent tongues from being expressed." You further judge it by saying it "is tragic and divisive." Your prejudice in this matter is evident.

Also, your interpretation of scripture is obviously based on personal subjective experience imposed on the text, and not on correctly extracting the original meaning from the text. I suggest you do a lot more study before you try to teach others.

We are not forbidding Biblical tongues being spoken. We are writing against modern glossolalia which is a human phenomenon and not Biblical tongues, as well as against the violations of scriptural commands and advice done by many of these groups.
TD

You wrote that tongues has not changed since Acts chapter two, but then agree with me on point #4, praying in tongues. That is different than Acts chapter two, right?

And you think that telling people that, they should not speak in tongues in public unless there is interpretation, to not be discouraging tongues? That's ridiculous.

So many "experts" on tongues who have never spoken in tongues, or been a part of a church where tongues are spoken. It's much easier to understand the scriptures on these things if you actually know something about them from personal experience.

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

rockytopva · Sep 13, 2018

I am Pentecostal Holiness. Our church teaches this in three methods...

1. Salvation - A simple profession of faith
2. Sanctification - If the old timers did not sense a sweet spirit in the experience they would tell you that no, you don't have it yet, come back tomorrow night!
3. Baptism in the Holy Ghost - The old timers also used to say that if you got sanctified that the Baptism was not that far away.

The old Methodist used to simply call this 'getting religion.' If you got in a good way everyone would know about it as they could see it coming out of the spiritual man.

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12:30

I find it best to let people get the Holy Ghost in their own way. As long as the Spirit of Christ is in the experience I have no problem with it. I have also noticed that everyone's spiritual experience is unique. No one speaks in tongues the same way for example. And....

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.- 1 Corinthians 14:39

We are not supposed to forbid people to speak in tongues, unless they are out of order. Here is a lady that spoke in tongues at our church some time ago. We would consider this in order.

ItIsFinished! · Sep 13, 2018

Speaking in tongues in accordance with the Scriptures has ceased.
My personal opinion is that Satan (who knows Scripture quite well) has used this subject matter as a way to confuse ,misrepresent God, His Holy Word, and to bring strife and division within the church.

Guess what? He has been pretty successful .
That is why children of God need to know His Word and more importantly apply His Word.
How much more so than are adversary who is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

God is not the author of confusion , but Satan is the father of lies .
He loves to add /subtract/ twist/ turn and confuse The Word of God.

Speaking in tongues in this present day is not in harmony with Scripture .
That should and always is a red flag.

I personally do not want any parts of it in any way , shape, or form.

rockytopva · Sep 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Speaking in tongues in accordance with the Scriptures has ceased.
My personal opinion is that Satan (who knows Scripture quite well) has used this subject matter as a way to confuse ,misrepresent God, His Holy Word, and to bring strife and division within the church.

Guess what? He has been pretty successful .
That is why children of God need to know His Word and more importantly apply His Word.
How much more so than are adversary who is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

God is not the author of confusion , but Satan is the father of lies .
He loves to add /subtract/ twist/ turn and confuse The Word of God.

Speaking in tongues in this present day is not in harmony with Scripture .
That should and always is a red flag.

I personally do not want any parts of it in any way , shape, or form.

Scripture...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. -1 Cor 14:39

Nothing here about a specific time or age. The only signs you see in most churches are exit signs!

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Speaking in tongues in accordance with the Scriptures has ceased.
My personal opinion is that Satan (who knows Scripture quite well) has used this subject matter as a way to confuse ,misrepresent God, His Holy Word, and to bring strife and division within the church.

Guess what? He has been pretty successful .
That is why children of God need to know His Word and more importantly apply His Word.
How much more so than are adversary who is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

God is not the author of confusion , but Satan is the father of lies .
He loves to add /subtract/ twist/ turn and confuse The Word of God.

Speaking in tongues in this present day is not in harmony with Scripture .
That should and always is a red flag.

I personally do not want any parts of it in any way , shape, or form.

Where is the strife and division from those who are fine with tongues?

What about the strife and division from those against tongues? You have turned a gray issue into a black and white issue. Claiming satanic origins. Claiming it is against the "Word of God". Those who defend tongues have provided a scriptural basis for their beliefs.

But that's not good enough for you. Only you can be right about this. You will only be happy when you have successfully shoved Cessationism down everyone's throat.

Not sure what you expect other than everyone to abandon their beliefs and bow to your wishes. Sounds like strife and division to me.

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

rockytopva said:
Scripture...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. -1 Cor 14:39

Nothing here about a specific time or age. The only signs you see in most churches are exit signs!

I love the last sentence.
"The only signs you see in most churches are exit signs!"

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

ItIsFinished! · Sep 13, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Where is the strife and division from those who are fine with tongues?

What about the strife and division from those against tongues? You have turned a gray issue into a black and white issue. Claiming satanic origins. Claiming it is against the "Word of God". Those who defend tongues have provided a scriptural basis for their beliefs.

But that's not good enough for you. Only you can be right about this. You will only be happy when you have successfully shoved Cessationism down everyone's throat.

Not sure what you expect other than everyone to abandon their beliefs and bow to your wishes. Sounds like strife and division to me.

Please don't speak for me and interject what you "think" I meant.
I didn't turn anything into a black or white issue.
I stated what I believe and stated it as my opinion.
If you disagree fine, but please don't say what I meant regarding my opinion.

And as far as your last statement, you are way out of line on many accounts. Actually quite ridiculous to be honest.
Can't people agree to disagree without letting their emotions get out of control for crying out loud???

ItIsFinished! · Sep 13, 2018

And no wishes were involved, muchless the desire of bowing to said wishes.
Ridiculous.

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Please don't speak for me and interject what you "think" I meant.
I didn't turn anything into a black or white issue.
I stated what I believe and stated it as my opinion.
If you disagree fine, but please don't say what I meant regarding my opinion.

And as far as your last statement, you are way out of line on many accounts. Actually quite ridiculous to be honest.
Can't people agree to disagree without letting their emotions get out of control for crying out loud???

Please don't say what I meant regarding my opinion. You are way out of line on many accounts. Actually quite ridiculous to be honest. Can't you disagree without letting your emotions get out of control for crying out loud???

Saint Steven · Sep 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
And no wishes were involved, muchless the desire of bowing to said wishes.
Ridiculous.

No wishes? Seriously?

Don't you wish that people would stop speaking in tongues, since you believe it is not in accordance with the Scriptures and has ceased?

Don't you wish that Satan (who knows Scripture quite well) would not have used this subject matter as a way to confuse ,misrepresent God, His Holy Word, and to bring strife and division within the church?

Don't you wish that the children of God knew His Word and more importantly applied His Word? More so than the adversary who is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour?

Don't you wish that people knew that God is not the author of confusion , but Satan is the father of lies. And that He loves to add /subtract/ twist/ turn and confuse The Word of God?

Don't you wish that people knew that speaking in tongues in this present day is not in harmony with Scripture? And that should and always is a red flag? (sound familiar?)

tdidymas · Sep 13, 2018

Saint Steven said:
You wrote that tongues has not changed since Acts chapter two, but then agree with me on point #4, praying in tongues. That is different than Acts chapter two, right?

And you think that telling people that, they should not speak in tongues in public unless there is interpretation, to not be discouraging tongues? That's ridiculous.

So many "experts" on tongues who have never spoken in tongues, or been a part of a church where tongues are spoken. It's much easier to understand the scriptures on these things if you actually know something about them from personal experience.

I guess then it is ridiculous for the apostle Paul to tell the Corinthians that they should not speak in tongues without an interpreter. I'm simply saying the same thing he wrote. If you think that he was talking about some special time in which they "address the church" sometime during the service, then you are adding to the text, and thus imposing an idea not in the scripture. So in your view, Paul discouraged tongues.

If you bothered to read previous posts in this thread, you would have come across my initial post saying that I do indeed have experience on this subject. I simply choose to exegete the scripture and believe what it says rather than my personal subjective experience that could be wrong (and was in my case). I spent 20 years among Pentecostals and Charismatics before coming to my final conclusions, and that after many hours of research. If you're interested, you can go back a few posts and find the links I cited on how modern glossolalia is not languages.

When I agreed on point #4 it was not a contradiction. If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that it was not contradictory. I'll reiterate - tongues are the same throughout the NT, but there are various purposes for it. Signs for unbelievers, signs for disciples, prayer, praise, and messages to the church. None of these purposes demand any difference in the mode of the tongues.
TD

Gr8Grace · Sep 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Can't people agree to disagree without letting their emotions get out of control for crying out loud???

This is why it is such a hot button topic. Biblical tongues ceased when the scriptures where signed sealed and finished(the perfect came). Speaking in a known language that the speaker has not learned( biblical tongues.) Is not the babble of today. Today's babble is ALL emotion/feelings from sincerely wrong believers and demonic from others.

You can't get around the emotions of it.......It is emotions and feelings that fuel it.

Billy Evmur · Sep 13, 2018

Lost4words said:
The devil can deceive. He is a master at it. Beware I would say. May God protect everyone.

sure he can...it is a deceived position to disagree with Paul.....his word [which he never in any way detracted] was "I would that ye did all speak in tongues"

Gr8Grace · Sep 13, 2018

rockytopva said:
We are not supposed to forbid people to speak in tongues, unless they are out of order. Here is a lady that spoke in tongues at our church some time ago. We would consider this in order.

Paul wrote 'do not forbid tongues'.......because there was 15 or so years left before the scriptures were completed. And don't forget that tongues were a sign for "this people." Unbelieving Jews........who believed nothing without SIGNS and wonders. Tongues were a sign for THIS PEOPLE (unbelieving Jews.)

And in your video.....the husband really looked like he was enjoying his wife's 'tongues.'

Billy Evmur · Sep 13, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
This is why it is such a hot button topic. Biblical tongues ceased when the scriptures where signed sealed and finished(the perfect came). Speaking in a known language that the speaker has not learned( biblical tongues.) Is not the babble of today. Today's babble is ALL emotion/feelings from sincerely wrong believers and demonic from others.

You can't get around the emotions of it.......It is emotions and feelings that fuel it.

Does that make an atom of sense? you say the gift ceased when we had the scriptures but it is the scripture that desires that we did all speak in tongues.

….that's where we got it from.

Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

In agreement with statements made in this video?

Total agreement

Agreement for the most part

Agree with a few points made

Not in agreement

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