Faith Plus Works

Loren T.

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why would you do sin if you know what you are about to do is a sin .. sin is a work you do . a deed . john says no one who is born of god can continue in the practice of sin .
yes i know you've been taught you cant stop .
but thats a lie if the devil to keep you captive to sin.

there is a chasm if difference between "having sin " (in the body of flesh)
and practicing sin .
its akin to - i have a packet of matched and a tin of gasoline .
that does not mean i have to light a match and drop it in the gasoline .
Uh huh. If you think you are living above sin, you decieve your self. I know where that road leads. Grew up in " entire santification" churches. Every body there was a sinner, some just didn't know it.
 
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Alithis

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Uh huh. If you think you are living above sin, you decieve your self. I know where that road leads. Grew up in " entire santification" churches. Every body there was a sinner, some just didn't know it.
that indeed is the case sadly .. but s i said . just because i have a match does not mean i have to light it - if i have NO CHOICE but to DO a work of sin then i am not free from the power of sin . but that would mean Christ failed on the cross and he did not for he rose again victorious .
If a person does not believe he can set them free ..then are they saved in the first place ?
 
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Loren T.

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that indeed is the case sadly .. but s i said . just because i have a match does not mean i have to light it - if i have NO CHOICE but to DO a work of sin then i am not free from the power of sin . but that would mean Christ failed on the cross and he did not for he rose again victorious .
If a person does not believe he can set them free ..then are they saved in the first place ?
You seem to be saying two different things...are we freed from the power of sin if we still desire it? Jesus basically said if you're thinking it, youve already done it.
 
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Saving faith is not perfect faith. Take your faith off of your own quality of faith and trust in the faithfulness of Christ!

But Jesus does not teach what you teach here.
Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Also, the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice is if we walk in the light as He is in the light (See 1 John 1:7).
 
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Uh huh. If you think you are living above sin, you decieve your self. I know where that road leads. Grew up in " entire santification" churches. Every body there was a sinner, some just didn't know it.

We walk by faith, and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).
I mean, imagine if you lived during Noah's time, you could tell Noah (Who is called a "preacher of righteousness) that it is impossible for people to stop sinning and live righteously because the whole world is wicked and sins. However, that wicked world had perished and it was an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter (See 2 Peter 2:5-6).

Anyways, the Bible says,

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).​
 
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No i didn't .. belief- is a verb it denotes an action taken . faith is also a verb and it too denotes an action taken. when a person truly believes they take action - if they do not , then they do not truly believe or have faith .

the problem with the rcc is that it changes its wording to to meet this understanding but then displays its UNBELIEF by refusing to be honest about the idolatry and the falsness of the pope position and the lie of perpetual virginity and the lie of purgatory and the Lie of "thier mary" being a co-mediator and the blasphemy of the title mother of god . what is the point on saying salvation is by faith alone .. when faith is an action and the first action is to repent of SIN . then they not only refuse to acknowledge SIN and perpetuate its continued practice around the world .
when the pop stands up and states categorically .. look people even having images of mary or jesus is Wrong ,people carrying images of Mary down streets in huge parades is open idolatry .. you must all cease doing this . . but then he would have to acknowledge his own position is a false hood and a lie

so what is the point or what is the motive of this turn around in their doctrines ? it is because they desire to gather a reunification- out from the authority of Jesus and under the usurped authority of Rome _and we've seen it beginning with the prosperity teachers and charismatic movement and the Lutheran and many others now entering the false unity of the apostates .

as for your rapture theories ... iv heard them ALL . for a very long time people have debated them .why ? usually because they are NOT doing what the lord Jesus said to do . and the many intellectual mind games they play and hoops they have to leap through to wrangle out thier theories . it is pointless .
in the clip you offered do you not even see he is using the same tactics as the rcc use ?
when a person cannot back up a preferred doctrine they desire to push they go to ancient writings OUTSIDE scripture for their validation .
just because this ONE or that ONE wrote what they did ,just means they too were trying to PUSH a doctrine on people . it does not mean it was a view held by the majority of believers . the only difference is that the majority of believers did not write books about it .-the opinion of the few is not the basis upon which doctrines are to be built and certainly NOT a validation.

This thread really is not about the Catholic church or the Pre-Trib Rapture. But I want to thank you for getting me more fired up on the Pre-Trib Rapture and studying more about it (Thereby confirming even MORE Scripture that supports it). I have a long list of verses that supports the fact that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture for a very long time now. I do not need to argue with you to prove that it is true. I know it is. Believers (who do not believe those verses that talk about the Pre-Trib Rapture) are going to feel sick to their stomach, when they miss out on it. For a person has the most to lose by not believing in a Pre-Trib Rapture. Well, that and the mountain of Scripture proves it is true, too.

In any event, you can believe whatever you wish (even though my prayers and my love that comes from Christ will work to help you to see otherwise).

As for the word "faith": I agree with you. It is both a belief and an action. James says that he will show a person his faith by his works (James 2:18). So it is nice that we agree on something.

Anyways, blessings to you in the Lord;
And may you please be well.
 
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discipler7

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discipler7 said:
Did I say that the book of JAMES should be removed from the canon of Scripture.? ...

2TIMOTHY.3:16-17 = ...

Besides JAMES, Scripture also mention the Judaizers, Judas Iscariot, Simon the magician, scribes and Pharisees, Jezebel, King Saul, Balaam, the Nicolaitans, Jannes and Jambres, Satan and other misguided characters. Should Christians also heed their teachings and doctrine.?
Did any of them write Scripture?
Who wrote the book of Jonah.? Should Christians also follow the example of Jonah being angry with God in the book of Jonah.?
 
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discipler7

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discipler7 said:
It's doubtful that JAMES, the Father of Judaizerism and salvation-by-works, is saved.

James was killed by the Jews in Jerusalem at around 69AD because he did not heed this word of warning from Jesus Christ ... LUKE.21:20-21 = [The Destruction of Jerusalem] 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
All the 12 apostles escaped the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70AD.
Are you really calling James a Judaizer?! Your views are not better than those people who think Paul created a different Christianity. Like I said, with what authority do you say those terrible things?
GALATIANS.2:11-13 = No Return to the Law
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

HEBREWS.8:10-11 = 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

Yes, I am really calling James a Judaizer as per GALATIANS.2:11-13. I say so with the authority of the Word of God at HEBREWS.8:10-11.

Also, James probably wanted Paul dead by orchestrating the events at ACTS.21:11-40. Why.? = likely because Paul had previously "humiliated" him as the bishop of Jerusalem and leader of the Judaizers at ACTS.15:1-29.
 
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Alithis

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You seem to be saying two different things...are we freed from the power of sin if we still desire it? Jesus basically said if you're thinking it, youve already done it.
-its ok :) i will cease my dramatic shock approach lol
then dont think it(the sin) though he didnt say if you think it. he said if you hate in your heart ...if you lust in your heart ...
we are also taught .. the saints are taught .. that now we are free from the power of sin, because that is who he is writing to , that we are to TAKE CAPTIVE EVERY THOUGH and bring it into submission ..so we have the power and the ability to do that ,we never have to let our thoughts go wandering and then folow them . we take them captive and demolish strongholds of the mind .. then we renew our minds to agree with the word of the lord :)
 
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Saying that saved sinners still struggle with sin is not a license to sin.

It is when you say they are still saved while they are in the moment of committing those sins. Sin is forgiven if we confess and forsake our sins (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. with Jonah 3:6-10).

A person who thinks they can be saved while committing sin temporarily while struggling with sin can easily deceive themselves even more to think they can commit sin all the time and be saved. The Bible warns against the deceitfulness of sin and how it can harden a person’s heart into unbelief altogether (See Hebrews 3).

You said:
Christ's sacrifice pays for all of the sins of those who are in him.

No. Only past sin, and not future sin. Nowhere does the Bible teach future sin is forgiven you. On the contrary, it teaches that you have to confess and forsake sin to be forgiven or to have mercy. This is a basic teaching in the Bible that many today ignore in favor over the doctrines of men that makes an allowance for sin.

You said:
Are you suggesting that a saved person who willingly sins becomes unsaved in the moment of their willful sin?

Not all sin leads unto death (See 1 John 5:16-17). For example: Sins that lead to death are the type of sins where you break the Moral Law and do not repent that leads to spiritual death (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). One example of a sin not unto spiritual death would be not obeying the command to be baptized (See 1 Peter 3:21). In 1 John 5:16-17, the “sin not unto death” is in context to sin that is being confessed with the intention of stopping that sin (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). Believers can pray to help this believer who struggles with this sin to have victory in overcoming their sin.

You said:
Would they then need to be saved again?

Yes. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (See Luke 15:11-32), we learn that when the son came home and repented, his father said two times that he was “dead” and he is “alive again.” He also said he was “lost” and now he is found. The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was “dead” in the sense of being dead spiritually and he is “alive again” in the sense that he is now alive again spiritually. In fact, if you were to read all of Luke 15, you will see that the Parable of the Prodigal Son is just one within a series of back to back parables with repentance as it’s theme. Jesus says, repent or perish (Luke 13:3). In the “Parable of the Lost Sheep,” we learn that this happens:

“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” (Luke 15:7).

Why are they rejoicing in Heaven over this?

It is because repentance is tied to salvation.

Then there is James 5:19-20, as well. It talks about restoring a backsliden brother back to the faith (from their living in sin) to the saving of their soul.

You said:
This is the Catholic view - that willful sin is mortal and leads to a fall from the state of grace. They must be saved again through the sacrament of penance.

I am not Catholic. I also do not believe in keeping any church sacraments that the Bible does not clearly talk about. I just believe what the Bible says. Are you Catholic because you believe in the Trinity?
 
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GALATIANS.2:11-13 = No Return to the Law
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

HEBREWS.8:10-11 = 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

Yes, I am really calling James a Judaizer as per GALATIANS.2:11-13. I say so with the authority of the Word of God at HEBREWS.8:10-11.

Also, James probably wanted Paul dead by orchestrating the events at ACTS.21:11-40. Why.? = likely because Paul had previously "humiliated" him as the bishop of Jerusalem and leader of the Judaizers at ACTS.15:1-29.
Lol, where did you get that from?
 
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paul becke

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St_Worm2, re your Signature in your post #17 :

'Preach the Gospel daily. Use words, if necessary' is customarily, I believe, attributed to St Francis of Assissi ; however, the rich irony of that quote by Lygen Duncan that you cite that refers to it, seems to have escaped both of you.

Is there any more persuasive manner of preaching than by example ? It was much of what lent such impressive authority to Jesus' own words. That is the profound truth that the author sought to express by what amounts to a witticism, a 'bon mot' - precisely because we normally define 'preaching' as a form of verbal communication. Put another way : 'Words are cheap', i.e. when not backed up by deeds. More clear, but without the memorably pungent wit. We also sometimes even refer explicitly to preaching by example ; again, somewhat figurative in terms of our normal understanding of the meaning of 'to preach'.
 
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Loren T.

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-its ok :) i will cease my dramatic shock approach lol
then dont think it(the sin) though he didnt say if you think it. he said if you hate in your heart ...if you lust in your heart ...
we are also taught .. the saints are taught .. that now we are free from the power of sin, because that is who he is writing to , that we are to TAKE CAPTIVE EVERY THOUGH and bring it into submission ..so we have the power and the ability to do that ,we never have to let our thoughts go wandering and then folow them . we take them captive and demolish strongholds of the mind .. then we renew our minds to agree with the word of the lord :)
I'm quite aware of all of that. It's just that I've never met a perfect person and never expect to. And I've known some I considered very godly. We rely on Christ's blood and sacrifice to save us, not on our own Holiness or lack of it.
 
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I'm quite aware of all of that. It's just that I've never met a perfect person and never expect to. And I've known some I considered very godly. We rely on Christ's blood and sacrifice to save us, not on our own Holiness or lack of it.

Do you think Noah and his family met a righteous people like themselves close to the flood?

In other words, we walk by faith and not by sight.
 
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Loren T.

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Do you think Noah and his family met a righteous people like themselves close to the flood?

In other words, we walk by faith and not by sight.
Noah wasn't so righteous he couldn't get drunk and naked. In fact, if we start looking at the people God counts as righteous in the Bible, the heroes of faith, we find some real doozies. Murders, lyers, prostitutes, and on and on. God used them all.
There are no perfect Christians, including ourselves. Best find that our early rather than later, to avoid too much disappointment.
 
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Noah wasn't so righteous he couldn't get drunk and naked. In fact, if we start looking at the people God counts as righteous in the Bible, the heroes of faith, we find some real doozies. Murders, lyers, prostitutes, and on and on. God used them all.
There are no perfect Christians, including ourselves. Best find that our early rather than later, to avoid too much disappointment.

Noah was naked in his tent and not in public. The Bible only records Noah getting drunk one time and he paid dearly for that sin. Noah is called a preacher of righteousness. You cannot be a preacher of righteousness unless you are living righteously.

While there are men of God who partaken in some serious sins, it was not without repentance and a change of life afterwards.

Besides, we are under a New Covenant that has different commands for His people.
 
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Noah wasn't so righteous he couldn't get drunk and naked. In fact, if we start looking at the people God counts as righteous in the Bible, the heroes of faith, we find some real doozies. Murders, lyers, prostitutes, and on and on. God used them all.
There are no perfect Christians, including ourselves. Best find that our early rather than later, to avoid too much disappointment.

But besides all that, what do you make of the verses I posted (in Post #185) to you before that talks about overcoming sin in the New Testament? Do you just ignore them or change them to say something else?
 
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Noah wasn't so righteous he couldn't get drunk and naked. In fact, if we start looking at the people God counts as righteous in the Bible, the heroes of faith, we find some real doozies. Murders, lyers, prostitutes, and on and on. God used them all.
There are no perfect Christians, including ourselves. Best find that our early rather than later, to avoid too much disappointment.

Do you honestly think they were saved while they committed sins or do you think maybe they had to repent?

Also, to say that the mistakes made by the holy men of God within the Bible are some doozies it to show a lack of respect in my opinion. They are God's people and they are special to God. They did not perish because they were willing to seek forgiveness with God and turn from their sin. They did not remain as sinful people who were saved by God's grace by having a mere belief alone in the Lord. A belief alone does not make you a better person. A person can have a belief that they are of God but if they do horrible and evil things, they prove otherwise. Unless of course they repent.
 
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Loren T.

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Also, to say that the mistakes made by the holy men of God within the Bible are some doozies it to show a lack of respect in my opinion. They are God's people and they are special to God. They did not perish because they were willing to seek forgiveness with God and turn from their sin. They did not remain as sinful people who were saved by God's grace by having a mere belief alone in the Lord. A belief alone does not make you a better person. A person can have a belief that they are of God but if they do horrible and evil things, they prove otherwise.
I don't see it as lack of respect at all. More like ...if God can use that person with all his failings maybe he can use me too. Yes, they repented, and that's a difference between Saint and sinner, one is willing to Humble himself the other isn't.
 
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Loren T.

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But besides all that, what do you make of the verses I posted (in Post #185) to you before that talks about overcoming sin in the New Testament? Do you just ignore them or change them to say something else?
Nope, I just realized some where along the way, that God loves the screw-ups too. We've all come a long way from what we were, but what we are to become is yet to be seen.
 
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