An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

mmksparbud

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God's love is demonstrated in Christ's incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.



So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job's health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?



So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they'll be tormented "to/into the eons of the eons"? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they're being tormented?



No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.



You're comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:

Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.



Where does Scripture say God will "beat them into a submission"? Would that change their hearts? People's own sins will torment them in "hell". Like they do in this life.



Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.



Who ever said that God's chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA's of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you've been posting here.

Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?



Correct.



Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?



The impression i've gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God's judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):

God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.

If you are still fearing "hell", you have not been "perfected in love" (1 Jn.4:17-19).

V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children's bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved?

Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:

"Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect." https://biblehub.com/greek/5401.htm



Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn't lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.



I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.

Heck---I knew I shouldn't peek, but I did---

So---since you think that God would be totally wrong and barbaric and worse than Hitler for annihilating anyone---Not to worry, you won't have to worry about living with such a monster--for if He truly indeed does have a hell in which all unrepentant sinners, and anyone who does not want to be with Him, will cease to exist ---you will not be living with Him. So either way, you will get what you want.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Eze_3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze_3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Now---you may have the very last word, for I will not peek again! Besides--I already know what you're goi9ng to say!
 
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ClementofA

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Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Now---you may have the very last word, for I will not peek again! Besides--I already know what you're goi9ng to say!

There's no mention of "eternal punishment" in Mt.10:28 or anywhere else in the Scriptures.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.
 
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ClementofA

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Heck---I knew I shouldn't peek, but I did---

Eze_3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze_3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

??? said:
Ezekiel 3:18 KJV
(18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Do you really think that you have the right to judge the quick and the dead, to declare that the wicked shall not surely die, to make yourself as god, to determine good and evil? God has said that the wicked shall surely die. Who are you to say otherwise?

Your exegesis of Scripture is really poor. Sure the wicked shall die. It's a common OT theme whose - context - has *nothing* to do with postmortem consequeces or final destiny. Compare:

Proverbs 3:1,2: "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commands, for length of days and long life, and peace, shall they add to you."
Proverbs 4:10: "My son, receive My sayings; and the years of your life shall be many."
Proverbs 10:27: "The fear of the LORD prolongs days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
1Kings 3:14: "If you walk in My ways, and keep My commandments ... then I will lengthen your days.
Exodus 20:12: “Honour your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Deuteronomy 5:16: “Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD
your God is giving you.”
Psalm 34:12,13: “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.”
Psalm 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
Eph.6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Exodus 23:25,26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and He will BLESS your bread and water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you, and the (full) number of your days I will fulfil."

Rosenritter;5269072 said:
There is a clear message that you should not tell the wicked that he shall live in spite of his wickedness.

Again you're misapplying an OT context (Ezekiel 3:18) that relates to a special way that God dealt in the OT, under the Old Covenant, with a particular people, Israel. Such had nothing to do with postmortem consequences, let alone was it speaking of final destiny.


Rosenritter;5269072 said:
How much more should you not be telling the wicked that they shall inherit eternal life?

I don't know what you're trying to say or ask here. Of course the wicked do not inherit life until they are saved.

Rosenritter;5269072 said:
You think that the same transgression multiplied by infinity is somehow acceptable now?

Huh?

"Sodom is portrayed as a very wicked place that was judged by God and destroyed by burning sulfur (Gen. 19:1–29). Jude writes that they "suffered the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7). But Jesus knew what circumstances would have brought the people of Sodom to repentance and acknowledgement of God (Matt. 11:23). The last word God speaks over Sodom is restoration in an eschatological prophecy by Ezekiel (Ezk. 16:53–55)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarian_universalism
 
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Pneuma3

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Thanks for replying.

Okay, so with the different and valid atonement theories, we can surmise that Jesus 'paying the price' might not be how we typically think of it in our pop-theology.

Hi Hat, I agree however as most of orthodox Christianity hold to the view that we have been speaking of I try to meet them where they live so to speak so as not to take the focus off of the salvation of all.

Then we can't really say that annihilation or endless torment isn't true because Jesus didn't 'pay the price' because he wasn't annihilated or tortured forever. Since how he 'paid the price' might not really mean that He actually went to hell at all.

If we do think that 'paying the price' should include hell, I do think the Christian Universalist who believes in a "rehabilitative" or "restorative" hell sits with a similar problem. If the very last person to come to put their trust in Jesus takes 2,000 years to do so in hell, then Jesus should have spent 2,000 years in hell. Even if (as someone claimed on this thread) that it is an age of 1,000 years, then Jesus should have spent 1,000 years in hell. But He didn't. It appears He spent only a few days there (if He spent any time there at all).

Well we do have scripture that states even if we make our bed in hell he is with us, the preaching to spirits in prison and leading the captivity captive.

Why 2000 years?Why any years? I believe the Holy spirit used the word aion and it adjective for the express purpose that they mean of unknown duration.


I don't think it's an argument anyone can actually win. I do think the annihilationists have an advantage, however, in that if hell really is 'death' then Jesus conquered it. That would make his resurrection even more remarkable. And it would line up to what the scriptures say about Him defeating death. But, of course, it would be weird to think that Jesus was annihilated and yet came back; I don't see how that works philosophically.

Most of this hell stuff is incredibly difficult to think philosophically. It seems to me the Bible is trying to describe the indescribable, and so it sometimes seems to conflict its wording or say two different things (how can hell me 'utter darkness' and yet have something to do with fire? For instance).

Here's the thing hat. aionios torment, annihilation and the salvation of all, are ALL in the scriptures and ALL have there part to play as it were.

The 3 main doctrines of the early church were eternal torment, annihilation and universal salvation.
Now why do Christians hold so diverse doctrines as these 3?

Don't know whether you read the link to my article on the great white throne or not but if you did you would have seen that I believe these thing ALL relate to the CROSS and that which it does in and for mankind.

The great white throne judgment is the judgment of the world and Jesus said signifying what death he would die (the cross) NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THE WORLD.

Now if I am correct that the CROSS is the judgment of the world then we should see these 3 different doctrines working together towards universal salvation or as Paul put it Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, which is the doctrine we are commanded to teach.

Aionios ( NOT ETERNAL torment, but a torment of unknown duration) torment and annihilation both have a work to do in the CROSS.
When the old man is being crucified there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth until the old man is annihilated and the new man comes forth.

I can't speak for others but I know from my own experiences of the workings of the CROSS in my own life that many a time I have gnashed my teeth at God and wailed against him crying out why? why? why? being in torment as the self is being destroyed.

So here's the thing, if those who believe in eternal torment could actually see that aion and its adjective is used of an unknown duration of torment (for no one knows how long it will take for the CROSS to do its full work of the destruction of the old man in each individual) and those who believe in annihilation could actually see that it is speaking of the old man being annihilated all the scriptures actually work hand in hand and there is truth (even if it is only partial at this time) in ALL 3 doctrines which leads to one goal, the salvation of the WORLD.

Hat, God simply cannot fail to do that which He set out to do?
 
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Der Alte

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<P3>...
Aionios ( NOT ETERNAL torment, but a torment of unknown duration) torment and annihilation both have a work to do in the CROSS.
...
So here's the thing, if those who believe in eternal torment could actually see that aion and its adjective is used of an unknown duration of torment (for no one knows how long it will take for the CROSS to do its full work of the destruction of the old man in each individual) and those who believe in annihilation could actually see that it is speaking of the old man being annihilated all the scriptures actually work hand in hand and there is truth (even if it is only partial at this time) in ALL 3 doctrines which leads to one goal, the salvation of the WORLD....<end>
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other adjectives and adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:
1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither are ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
 
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lesliedellow

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The Greek word "everlasting" there is the adjective aionion, which is related to the noun, aion meaning "age". Accordingly more literal translations render 2 Thess.1:9 as follows:

It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.
 
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Neogaia777

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It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.
That would make God pretty just then, right...?

Maybe if we told people, especially people of the world this, maybe they would think differently maybe...?

God Bless!
 
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Pneuma3

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It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.


MUCH MORE then aionios life


Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.


They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.


But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.


Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.


The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.


Habakkuk 3:6

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.


Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.



Psalm 41:13

13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.

If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.

I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.


Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.


The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.


The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.


Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.


Hebrews 7:16

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction

From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?


What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.


Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


1 Peter 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?


These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.


If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.


Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.


Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
 
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Ripheus27

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I believe the Holy spirit used the word aion and it adjective for the express purpose that they mean of unknown duration.

As a result of this thread, I suspect the Holy Spirit used the words in question to provoke people into writing posts that can be described using those very words.
 
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Ripheus27

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funny. but be careful that is very close to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.

According to the Catholic Church, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is final impenitence. Others say it is attributing the work of demons to the Spirit, or lying to the Spirit, or double-crossing the Savior, or many other things. I don't think it's making jokes in which the Spirit figures, as long as the Spirit is not made fun of in Himself, and even then I doubt that such is sufficient to outright count as eternal blasphemy.*

*[I actually suspect that the entire point Jesus was trying to make was, "You people [the false religious leaders] are always accusing Me of evil. Now you say that I am casting out demons using not the Holy Spirit's but Satan's power. But if I was doing that, I would be guilty of an eternal sin. Do you really want to claim that I am guilty of eternal sin?"]
 
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ClementofA

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It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.

Perhaps you are ignorant of universalist beliefs. Consider Mt.25:46, for example:

??? said:
2. The righteous go into eternal life. The cursed into everlasting punishment. The word for everlasting and eternal is the same here - so unless there is some specific construction leading us to believe that the comparison here is not direct, one would have to give the eternal life of the righteous the same weight as the everlasting punishment due the wicked. A similar argument is made by UR proponents about "all" in I Corinthians 15:22 (and may have been made in this thread - my apologies, I haven't read it in its entirety). So if the eternal life of the believer is never to cease, why should we think the punishment due the wicked will? And if the life of the believer is merely age-lasting, does that mean that at some point in the future, that salvation can be expended and come to an end?

Regarding your questions, nikolai, there are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives.


? said:
I read the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson. He makes a solid argument. Would recommend it. He includes this quote from Augustine's City of God,

what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!" Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are "eternal," then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative — on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar Bentley Hart does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

Many other versions do likewise.

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

Regarding the Greek word for "punishment"(kolasis) in Matthew 25:46:

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

Was "eternal"(eonian) fire that burned Sodom endless, or finite:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite? And if aionion is finite in Mt.25:41, shouldn't it also be finite in Mt.25:46 when again referring to punishment?

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because if it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

[journalofanalytictheology.com/ja ... 30418a/271](http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271)

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf[/url

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." [earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html](http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html)

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.

[tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd21.html](http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd21.html)

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

continued next post...
 
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ClementofA

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Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"

[tentmaker.org/forum/word-studie ... n-forever/](https://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/another-aionios-thread-these-things-go-on-forever/)

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

[tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html](http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html)

"Walvoord appeals to Matthew 25:46 (“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian,” CV), declaring that if the state of the blessed is eternal, as expressed by this word, there is no logical reason for giving limited duration to punishment."

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again. From the fact that the life of the just nations and the chastening of the unjust nations are herein described by the same adjective, descriptive of duration, it does not follow that the latter group of nations, therefore, will be subjected to endless punishment. The argument assumes what is at issue by presuming that the life of the just, here, is termed an endless life. Simply because, on certain grounds, the life of those persons comprising the just nations will prove to be endless, it does not follow that the blessing of life afforded here to any such nations is therefore that of endless duration. It is as unreasonable to assume that eonian life doubtlessly signifies endless life as it would be to claim that youthful life actually signifies aged life, simply because our presuppositions and predilections may dictate such a conclusion."

"...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius * . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "

"...Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "

"...not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version).

"In this response to your “deeply troubled” encounter with the Concordant Version, I have principally sought not to prove my position, but to open a door to its consideration; a door of further inquiry, with a view toward your attaining an awareness of the grace of God in truth, even as of the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Eph.3:11). May our God and Father be pleased to use this writing unto such an end."


So let me get this straight...

Matthew 25:46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The same Greek word is used. Are you telling me these are used differently?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way universalism is Bible truth & "eternal" is a deceptive translation.

Is aionios used "differently" in each of its two occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Is the aionios God (Rom.16:26) of the same duration as "long ages" (Rom.16:25, NIV, NASB, ESV, NET, WEY, YLT, etc) during which a revelation was kept secret (v.25) but is "now revealed" (v.26a)? Why, then, is it assumed aionios life must be of the same duration as aionios punishment (Mt.25:46)?

Is a tall building the same height as a tall blade of grass? No. Why, then, is it assumed aionios life must be of the same duration as aionios punishment (Mt.25:46)? In the sentence "The blessed stay in a tall high rise, but the wicked in a tall dungeon", is the high rise equally as tall as the dungeon?

Just as the adjective tall varies with what it refers to, so also the adjective aionion (eonian) varies with what it refers to. A tall man is not the same size as a tall tree or highrise or mountain. Likewise:

"So of aiónion; applied to Jonah's residence in the fish, it means seventy hours; to the priesthood of Aaron, it signifies several centuries; to the mountains, thousands of years; to the punishments of a merciful God, as long as is necessary to vindicate his law and reform his children; to God himself, eternity." AIN -- AINIOS

Similarly, a long life need not be of the same duration as a long punishment. A perpetual life is not necessarily of the same duration as a perpetual punishment.

Is the aion of an ant of the same duration as the aion of a tree?

"There are as many eons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one eon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the eon depends on the subject to which it is attached." (WORD STUDIES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT by MARVIN R. VINCENT, D.D."
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

Is the church age eon of the same duration as the internet age eon? Is the eon of a geological age of the same duration as the millennial eon? If not, then why should eonian in Mt.25:46 have to be of the same duration in reference to punishment & life?

If believers go into the life aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come) & unbelievers go into the punishment aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come), does that prove that the punishment must absolutely be co-extensive with the life? No. Does it prove that the age to come is not finite? No.

Could both occurrences of aionios in Mt.25:46 refer to a finite age (or ages) to come? Yes.

If aionios is of equal duration in both occurrences of Mt.25:46, shouldn't "all mankind" (Rom.5:18), "the many" (Rom.5:19) and "all" (1 Cor.15:22, 28) be co-extensive in number in these passages:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in ALL.

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet...An adjective relates to the noun it modifies."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius [i.e., inherent nature] . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "
http://www.concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

Philosophy professor Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God", remarked:

"Whatever its correct translation, “aionios” is clearly an adjective and must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies. For more often than not, the noun helps to determine the precise force of the adjective. As an illustration, set aside the Greek word “aionios” for a moment and consider the English word “everlasting.” I think it safe to say that the basic meaning of this English word is indeed everlasting. So now consider how the precise force of “everlasting” varies depending upon which noun it qualifies. An everlasting struggle would no doubt be a struggle without end, an unending temporal process that never comes to a point of resolution and never gets completed. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation would hardly be an unending temporal process that never gets completed; instead, it would be a temporal process of limited duration, or perhaps simply an instantaneous event, that terminates in an irreversible state. So however popular it might be, the argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same force regardless of which noun it qualifies in Matthew 25:46 is clearly fallacious."

"Accordingly, even if we should translate “aionios” with the English word “everlasting,” a lot would still depend upon how we understand the relevant nouns in our text: the nouns “life” (zoe) and “punishment” (kolasis). Now the kind of life in question, being rightly related to God, is clearly an end in itself, even as the kind of punishment in question seems just as clearly to be a means to an end. For as one New Testament scholar, William Barclay, has pointed out, “kolasis” “was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.” Barclay also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”–which is probably a bit of a stretch, since the language of correction and the language of retribution often get mixed together in ordinary language. But in any event, if “kolasis” does signify punishment of a remedial or a corrective kind, as I think it does in Matthew 25:46, then we can reasonably think of such punishment as everlasting in the sense that its corrective effects literally endure forever. Or, to put it another way: An everlasting correction, whenever successfully completed, would be a temporal process of limited duration that terminates in the irreversible state of being rightly related to God. Certainly nothing in the context of Matthew 25 excludes such an interpretation."

"This would not be my preferred interpretation, however, because the English word “everlasting” does not accurately capture the special religious meaning that “aionios” typically has in the New Testament."

https://www.amazon.com/Inescapable-...498222412/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8

continued next post...
 
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ClementofA

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Here are some literal & other translations of Mt.25:46:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation:
"46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)."
::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

"....the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshi^to], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.” http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retribution/retribution18.htm

"Of the New Testament, attempts at translation must have been made very early, and among the ancient versions of New Testament Scripture the Syriac in all likelihood is the earliest."
http://www.bible-researcher.com/syriac-isbe.html

"The Peshi^to is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshi^to was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshi^ito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all."

"How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retribution/retribution18.htm


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ClementofA

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It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038
 
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... begin
<P3>Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense. ...<end>
There are more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible. One of those figures of speech is epezeuxis.
Figures of Speech used in the Bible," E.W. Bullinger [Who happened to believe in UR]
EPIZEUXIS: or, DUPLICATION.
The Repetition of the same word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEM INATLO, pronounced Gem.i—na’—tio, which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling. It is also called ITERATIO (It'-er-a.ti-o), iteration ; Conduplicatio0 (con-dü-pli.ca -tio), conduplica tion, or full doubling.
when the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS, pronounced Ep-i-zeux-is. It is the Greek word epizeuxis from “epi”, upon, and “zeugnumi” , to yoke, or join closely together. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it.
In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger 1etters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking. it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence.
How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! p 189
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The LORD your God is God or Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,” etc.
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 3:5 A Hebrew of the Hebrews,” i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
1 Tim. vi. 15.—”The King of kings, and Lord of lords.. Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. I .
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Rev. 1: 6.—” The ages of the ages,”
i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p. 284
2 Pet. iii. ii.—” In holy conversations and godlinesses : i.e.. holy, weighty, and solemn conduct and piety.
certain words are generally plural: e.g., (aionios). This may be to mark the fact that eternity is made up or successive ages:
the singular referring either to one such age; or, including all, as a whole. Hence we have . eis ton aiona unto the ages or for ever (Matt. xxi. 19. John vi. 5l. 58. I Pet. i. 25 from Isa. xl. 8. etc.). p. 531
https://archive.org/stream/figuresofspeechu00bull#page/284/mode/1up/search/for+ever
Marvin Vincent Commentary 2 Corinthians 4:17
Our light affliction which is but for a moment (τὸ παραυτίκα ἐλαφρὸν τῆς θλίψεως ἡμῶν)
Lit., the present light (burden) of our affliction.
Worketh (κατεργάζεται)
Works out: achieves.
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

 
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ClementofA

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<P3>Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense. ...<end>

There are more than 200 figures of speech used in the Bible. One of those figures of speech is epezeuxis.

Figures of Speech used in the Bible," E.W. Bullinger [Who happened to believe in UR]
EPIZEUXIS: or, DUPLICATION.
The Repetition of the same word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEM INATLO, pronounced Gem.i—na’—tio, which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling. It is also called ITERATIO (It'-er-a.ti-o), iteration ; Conduplicatio0 (con-dü-pli.ca -tio), conduplica tion, or full doubling.
when the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS, pronounced Ep-i-zeux-is. It is the Greek word epizeuxis from “epi”, upon, and “zeugnumi” , to yoke, or join closely together. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it.
In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger 1etters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking. it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence.
How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! p 189
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The LORD your God is God or Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,” etc.
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 3:5 A Hebrew of the Hebrews,” i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
1 Tim. vi. 15.—”The King of kings, and Lord of lords.. Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. I .
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Rev. 1: 6.—” The ages of the ages,”
i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p. 284
2 Pet. iii. ii.—” In holy conversations and godlinesses : i.e.. holy, weighty, and solemn conduct and piety.
certain words are generally plural: e.g., (aionios). This may be to mark the fact that eternity is made up or successive ages:
the singular referring either to one such age; or, including all, as a whole. Hence we have . eis ton aiona unto the ages or for ever (Matt. xxi. 19. John vi. 5l. 58. I Pet. i. 25 from Isa. xl. 8. etc.). p. 531
https://archive.org/stream/figuresofspeechu00bull#page/284/mode/1up/search/for+ever
Marvin Vincent Commentary 2 Corinthians 4:17
Our light affliction which is but for a moment (τὸ παραυτίκα ἐλαφρὸν τῆς θλίψεως ἡμῶν)
Lit., the present light (burden) of our affliction.
Worketh (κατεργάζεται)
Works out: achieves.
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.



Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger. Since Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15:25), His reign "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15) cannot be for ever and ever. Nor can "ages of the ages" be for ever and ever, since it ends along with Christ's reign for the "ages of the ages".

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless.
Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT
(eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire is not eternal & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038
 
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ClementofA

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So---since you think that God would be totally wrong and barbaric and worse than Hitler for annihilating anyone---

Where did i say that? Though for what purpose would Love Omnipotent annihilate anyone for whom He sent His Son to die & shed His precious blood for their salvation? Does His love have an expiry date like a milk carton? Is His hand shortened that it cannot save? Is it for anyone's good that anyone would be annihilated?

Not to worry, you won't have to worry about living with such a monster--for if He truly indeed does have a hell in which all unrepentant sinners, and anyone who does not want to be with Him, will cease to exist ---you will not be living with Him. So either way, you will get what you want.

Who are you to judge who will be living with Him? Or what i want?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/
 
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HatGuy

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Hi Hat, I agree however as most of orthodox Christianity hold to the view that we have been speaking of I try to meet them where they live so to speak so as not to take the focus off of the salvation of all.



Well we do have scripture that states even if we make our bed in hell he is with us, the preaching to spirits in prison and leading the captivity captive.

Why 2000 years?Why any years? I believe the Holy spirit used the word aion and it adjective for the express purpose that they mean of unknown duration.




Here's the thing hat. aionios torment, annihilation and the salvation of all, are ALL in the scriptures and ALL have there part to play as it were.

The 3 main doctrines of the early church were eternal torment, annihilation and universal salvation.
Now why do Christians hold so diverse doctrines as these 3?

Don't know whether you read the link to my article on the great white throne or not but if you did you would have seen that I believe these thing ALL relate to the CROSS and that which it does in and for mankind.

The great white throne judgment is the judgment of the world and Jesus said signifying what death he would die (the cross) NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THE WORLD.

Now if I am correct that the CROSS is the judgment of the world then we should see these 3 different doctrines working together towards universal salvation or as Paul put it Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, which is the doctrine we are commanded to teach.

Aionios ( NOT ETERNAL torment, but a torment of unknown duration) torment and annihilation both have a work to do in the CROSS.
When the old man is being crucified there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth until the old man is annihilated and the new man comes forth.

I can't speak for others but I know from my own experiences of the workings of the CROSS in my own life that many a time I have gnashed my teeth at God and wailed against him crying out why? why? why? being in torment as the self is being destroyed.

So here's the thing, if those who believe in eternal torment could actually see that aion and its adjective is used of an unknown duration of torment (for no one knows how long it will take for the CROSS to do its full work of the destruction of the old man in each individual) and those who believe in annihilation could actually see that it is speaking of the old man being annihilated all the scriptures actually work hand in hand and there is truth (even if it is only partial at this time) in ALL 3 doctrines which leads to one goal, the salvation of the WORLD.

Hat, God simply cannot fail to do that which He set out to do?
Interesting stuff. Thank you!
 
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