Is Heaven as materialistic as Earth

harko said:

The flesh and blood body of Jesus ascended to heaven! So where is heaven ? It cannot be a planet or anywhere else in the God created universe! Confusing:\

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In the ancient world the concept of "the heavens" referred to everything we see when we look up. The modern scientific knowledge we have since the Copernican Revolution was unknown to the ancients. For people in the ancient near east the universe was pretty "small", the earth was a circle that rested on pillars and foundations, and above the earth was a dome or firmament, and the celestial objects circled above the earth. By the time of the Apostles in the Greco-Roman world the Ptolemaic model was what prevailed, in which the earth (which at that time had been demonstrated to be a sphere) was the center of the universe, and all celestial objects circled around the earth in concentric spheres.

In both scenarios the idea of God or the gods as in some sense having a supreme and sublime existence existed beyond the observable, not merely in the heavens where we observe the sun, moon, and stars, but in the highest of the heavens, further than what we can see or fathom. As such Solomon says, "The heavens, not even the heavens of heavens, can contain You" this phrase "heavens of heavens" is representative of Hebrew language, which indicates the greatest or chief of a thing, e.g. "king of kings" "god of gods", "holy of holies". Solomon is saying that not even the highest, the greatest, the most sublime of the heavens can contain God because God is beyond and above everything.

Also, as such, the concept of "heaven" came to also to denote divine sublimity itself. And in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus was even used as a euphemism for God Himself, as we see in Matthew's Gospel that where Mark and Luke use the phrase "kingdom of God" Matthew has "kingdom of heaven"; these terms mean the same thing; "heaven" here simply means "God".

Also, in the ancient near east, and this idea was shared by the Hebrews, there were seven heavens, as seven was an important number for ancient near eastern cultures that tended to be associated with the divine. In Jewish 2nd Temple literature the third heaven was associated with Paradise/Eden, we see this in the Book of Enoch where Enoch visits the third heaven and sees Paradise, and Paul echoes this idea in the New Testament when he says he knew a man who, whether in a vision or in the body (he did not know which) visited the third heaven, to the paradise of God, and beheld unspeakable mysteries. But the highest heaven was the heaven of God.

Now, what we shouldn't try and do, is attempt to take the idea of multiple heavens literally and attempt to construct some sort of heavenly topography; as this isn't the point. The point is God's utter sublimity, that He is above and beyond all things; and the heavens, the highest heavens, the greatest heavens is the ancient way to try and capture the idea of God's absolute and utter transcendence--He is greater, bigger, higher, more than everything else.

That the Lord ascended into the heavens and is seated at the right hand of the Father is not to say that Jesus went to some place called "Heaven" that you could find if you had a good space ship and lots of time, and literally has a chair next to God the Father's chair. The point is that the Lord Jesus reigns as King, with His Father, in God's glory above all things: As King and Lord, all things being made subject to Him.

To that end asking "Where is heaven?" is an impossible question, it's not a where. Asking "where is heaven?" is a bit like asking "When is blue?" or "How tall is purple?". Heaven isn't a "where", Heaven is a "with", Heaven is a "Who".

-CryptoLutheran

harko said:

So will be as materialistic Loren!

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The ultimate hope we have as Christians isn't to dwell in "Heaven", but the new earth. The idea of "going to heaven" is based upon what St. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, that to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. This is an intermediate state of existence, between death and resurrection. It's for our comfort to know that, even in death we will rest in Christ. This is emphasized a bit more in some of the visions in the Apocalypse (Revelation) of St. John which depicts the saints and martyrs as being before God's throne.

So to speak of our "going to heaven" is shorthand to speak of our rest and comfort with Christ as we await the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. When Christ returns in glory, the dead shall be raised, and God will make all things new--a "new heavens and a new earth". This is the renewal of creation and the "restoration of all things" (as Peter describes it in Acts 3:21), and we shall ever be with the Lord, and God will be with us, He shall be our God and we shall be His people, and He shall wipe away every tear from our eyes (Revelation 21:3-4). And God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

-CryptoLutheran

Ever take a clouded glass and look at things? Amp that up when talking about the earth and heaven. What was see today is what effect SIN has on the earth. We have no clue what the Father has waiting for us. With the Father.. everything there is alive. Did not Christ say..if you stop them then even the rocks would cry out? Or when God told Israel if you do the same things (sins) as those other nations the earth will spit you out. Read about study about the EARTH alone. Does God talk as if its dead or alive? All we see is what SIN did..

Now take away SIN and WOW

harko said:

The flesh and blood body of Jesus ascended to heaven! So where is heaven ? It cannot be a planet or anywhere else in the God created universe! Confusing:\

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Heaven is a place, where there is only righteousness. Light and no darkness. Heaven is not materialistic. Whatever it is there is enough for everyone.

Fish14 said:

The "Heaven" we Christians will inhabit is really the renewed Earth. It will be like before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. No sickness, death or suffering. Unimaginable amounts of peace, joy and meaning in life.

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The next age will not be like the Garden of Eden. Revelation 21-22 paints a different image. Two important differences,
God will dwell with us
There will be no sun, day or night. This reinforces the eternal aspect of that age.

Fish14 said:

Now the heaven where Jesus ascended to is an immaterial realm where God "lives". As it is not physical, it can't be observed or even speculated upon. It just exists, that's pretty much everything we can believe.

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Yes, but there are some references in scripture.

Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Genesis 28:12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

2 Kings 6:17And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

There is a spiritual realm that we can't normally see, but some have. It is all around us, with Satan being with us on earth in the spiritual realm. God's angels are also around us, protecting us. They descend from heaven where God is, which is higher, above earth in another spiritual realm.

harko said:

The flesh and blood body of Jesus ascended to heaven! So where is heaven ? It cannot be a planet or anywhere else in the God created universe! Confusing:\

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You are somewhat limiting God to your conception of physical things , physical space, and the nature and extent of the universe. All our knowledge of those things comes from experience, indeed the entireity of science is just in essence a model of repeatable things doing what they usually do. ( so speaks a postgrad (now ex) professional scientist). "Gods Universe" itself is far stranger than the scientific model portrays, and its extent is unbounded. Nor is it constrained to do ONLY what it normally does. I put quotes round "universe" because science and theology have a slightly different view of "universe"

In order to escape some silly paradoxes which are born of constraining the universe to scientific model, science itself conjectures "Multiple universes" (which in the way science uses it is an even crazier concept than the paradox it seeks to solve, as the best way to explain quantum phenomena ) - and science also conjectures many additional dimensions we cannot observe, things can be "lost" in those.... That much is true from simple philosophy asking questions like ...why should our senses detect all that is there? As Nagel questioned " what is it like to be a bat"? our views of the universe are indeed constrained by our senses. Some creatures have no vision at all. Is their universe different?

So coming back to the bible, we are obliged to accept that what God created by act of will, he can also change at will. The rules we accept as "laws" are the "Normal" behaviour not only behaviour. The places we can detect, are not the only places that exist.

So when water becomes wine, or Jesus appears in a locked room... the normal experience of "what is" and "where is" amd even "when is" can be suspended as God wishes. What we can be certain of, is that no trace of jesus's body (or indeed Marys) still exist on earth. Because history would have been different otherwise. The burial places would have become places of pilgrimage and history would have recorded that. Yet no such tradition exists. They really did vanish "into thin air" - and as the transfiguration proves, some things can materialize back if God wishes!

We as Christians must accept that Heaven is a place or state where we are with God in eternity, much more than that, we cannot say for certain!

harko said:

The flesh and blood body of Jesus ascended to heaven! So where is heaven ? It cannot be a planet or anywhere else in the God created universe! Confusing:\

Click to expand...

There will be a new Earth and we will have new glorified bodies there will be no more sin and materialistic things should not matter to us ever again, yet we will be provided with everything we need to live in a beautiful new perfect world.

No computers or forums in heaven -- that would wreck the place.

Also interesting apparently we will have jobs to perform there. I have worked with water for much of my life, hopefully I will have a position working down by the big beautiful waterfall???

M-Bob

I know it is a little off topic, but it is amusing so I will post it. About the concept of heaven.

So Bill Gates dies, and St Peter meets him at the gates, saying "we really dont know what to do with you"
"So as a first for us, we will allow you to choose, heaven or hell, but first we will show you both."

So Bill is taken to heaven, all angels and harps and songs of praise, and in Bills view totally boring!

So then he is taken to hell. With sun and beaches, scantily clad ladies, cocktails, all mirth and meriment and having fun.

So Bill says... "Hell definitely Please."
"Ok Says peter, but I will come and check up on you in a week..."

So Peter is true to his word, and returns a week later,
.....and there is Bill on the rack being drawn over flames, and in between screams he says...."I protest, this is NOT what you showed me".

So St Peter says - "Ah...but that was the "DEMO" version we showed you. You now must suffer the reality!"