Faith Plus Works

Jason0047 said:

First, while hymns can be nice to give praise and glory to God, they are not Scripture. Second, I believe Christ does the good work in me and that I can do nothing without Him (See John 15:5). So no. I stand upon Christ in both Justification and in Sanctification. If salvation did not depend on anything you did, then you must believe that a believer can be an axe murdering rapist and still be saved by just having a belief on Jesus. Surely you do not believe axe murdering rapists who believe on Jesus would be saved, would you?

Please take note that I have talked with Eternal Security Proponents who do believe that a believer can be saved even while they commit the most vile of sins. Let me ask you a question. Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Yes, or no?

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I’ve talked with a few that say even a person who worships satan will be saved if they believe in Jesus even if it is against their will they will still go to heaven. It’s truly amazing how far off some people can be even having an extensive knowledge of the scriptures. They know the scriptures but they just don’t understand them.

Tree of Life said:

I'm not suggesting that hymns are Scripture. I was just wondering if you could sing that hymn with a clear conscience.

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Why would I sing a song that is in clear violation of Scripture?
I wouldn't now would I.
So I fail to see how a song really has anything to do with what we are talking about here. Songs have no authority in what Scripture says.

Jason0047 said:

If salvation did not depend on anything you did, then you must believe that a believer can be an axe murdering rapist and still be saved by just having a belief on Jesus. Surely you do not believe axe murdering rapists who believe on Jesus would be saved, would you?

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You said:

I believe that Jesus can save and forgive axe murdering rapists, yes.

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I believe that, too. But I believe that this is only possible if they repent (seek forgiveness) of such sins with Jesus and they do not continue in those sins (Which are the natural fruits of repentance).

Surely you don't believe that a believer in Jesus who is still a practicing murderer and rapist is still saved do you?

You said:

Yes he was.

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So if David was saved while committing such grievous sins, then that means Christians can commit the same kinds of grievous sins and still be saved while committing such horrible acts. Right?

So if that is the case, then one can sin and still be saved. Correct?
One can do evil and think they are going to be rewarded with the goodness of Heaven despite their evil. Right?

This seems like a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God to me.

Tree of Life said:

You're still not answering my question.

I'm not asking: "Must we love God and neighbor in order to be saved?"

I'm asking: "Do you believe that you have loved God and neighbor well enough to measure up to God's standard for these things?" Remember that God's standard is perfect love. Jesus taught: "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

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The context of Matthew 5:48 is this:

44 "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44-45).

Can you love your enemies?
Yes, you can. I know I have.
Can you bless them that curse you?
Yes, you can. I know I have.
Can you do good to them that hate you?
Yes, you can. I know I have.
Can you pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you?
Yes, you can. I know I have.

So yes. You can do these things.
Why wouldn't you want to do these things?
Jesus says his burden is easy and it is light.
You can actually do these things by the power of the Lord Jesus working in you. They are not hard if you allow Jesus to help you.

As for the perfect standard you are talking about:
Please show me where violating a perfect standard by God is grounds for being punished by fire? 1 John 5:16-17 says there are sins that lead unto death, and sins that do not lead unto death. So not all sins can condemn you to the Lake of Fire. Not all sins are the same.

Tree of Life said:

I cannot judge that for certain. I know it's possible for saved people to commit grievous sins. I know a person who professes faith and yet commits grievous sins does not have any grounds for confidence that they are indeed saved.



Yes. Saved people can commit very grievous sins.



Yes. Saved people can commit very grievous sins.



Yes. They should not therefore continue in evil. But the good news of the gospel is that we are saved by grace apart from works of the law.



That's because you believe in salvation by works. You are a Pharisee.

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I just do not see how your belief upholds morality or the goodness of God.
If believers can do evil sometimes and still be saved while even doing that evil, it gives the impression that believers can do this all the time and be saved. I do not see how morality or the goodness of God is upheld.

Also, in order for God to save a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved as you suggest, wouldn't God have to agree with this plan of salvation or this kind of thinking, too? This means God can agree with sin because He is still giving a believer His reward for salvation despite any evil that they are doing. Does a father reward his son while he does evil? This to me does not seem consistent with a loving father let alone consistent with a loving God in my experience with God, my experience with others, and my understanding on basic morality.

Tree of Life said:

Ok just to be clear. You believe that your works of obedience are good enough to measure up to God's perfect standards.

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Where in the Bible does it say that those who broke God's perfect standards are cast into hell fire?

You said:

John says that you are a self deluded liar. 1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

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1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the false gnostic belief that denies the existence of sin. Christian Scientists believe that sin does not exist and it is an illusion. So this verse is a warning to them to not to think that way. For 1 John 1:10 is a denial that a person has every sinned (even in their past). We both obviously believe we sinned as a part of our old life, but this would not be true for us. So this is talking about the gnostic belief of those who were trying to seduce the brethren in whom John was writing to (See 1 John 2:26).

If 1 John 1:8 is as you say, then it would contradict 1 John 2:24 that says that the person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

I hope this helps;
And may the Lord Jesus's love shine upon you today.

Tree of Life said:

Maybe not! It's not clear that Solomon was ultimately saved.

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I believe Solomon was saved in the end.

Here is a thread I created a while back that shows Scripture that suggests that.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/was-solomon-saved.8055573/

BNR32FAN said:

I’ve talked with a few that say even a person who worships satan will be saved if they believe in Jesus even if it is against their will they will still go to heaven. It’s truly amazing how far off some people can be even having an extensive knowledge of the scriptures. They know the scriptures but they just don’t understand them.

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All we can do is pray and love them, my friend.

discipler7 said:

Did I say that the book of JAMES should be removed from the canon of Scripture.? ...

2TIMOTHY.3:16-17 = 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Besides JAMES, Scripture also mention the Judaizers, Judas Iscariot, Simon the magician, scribes and Pharisees, Jezebel, King Saul, Balaam, the Nicolaitans, Jannes and Jambres, Satan and other misguided characters. Should Christians also heed their teachings and doctrine.?

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Did any of them write Scripture?

Tree of Life said:

The morality and justice of God is upheld in the cross of Christ. God punished all of our sins by punishing Christ.

The goodness of God is also upheld in the cross of Christ. God is good in his mercy and forgiveness toward repentant sinners by not treating them as their sins deserve.

You should look more into the cross of Christ.



Saved sinners still struggle with sin. It does not follow from this that there is no moral standard for them or that someone who has no conviction about stopping sinning is still saved.



God's plan is to save sinners. He saves them by sending his son Jesus to die for their sins and to give them the Holy Spirit. He puts them into Christ, converting them and forgiving them all their sins. He then sanctifies them throughout their lives by delivering them from sin.

But God does not deliver saved people from the experience of sin and misery all at once. There is a process of sanctification during which we still struggle with sin and are not yet perfected.

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But this would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us about. Willingly doing evil in the future (without repentance) is not paid for in the past by Christ's sacrifice. God would have to still agree with the believer's idea that they can and still be saved in that moment. But again, God cannot agree with sin. The cross of Jesus would not erase God's own behavior in approving of saving a believer who is doing evil with the thinking they are saved and or being rewarded with good things like eternal life. It is a violation of basic morality to reward evil with good. The cross would not erase that concept. God would have to agree with sin in order to make that work; And that is not possible because God is good and He is holy.

Tree of Life said:

Saying that saved sinners still struggle with sin is not a license to sin.

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It is if one says that they are still saved while they still commit those sins.
Again, God would have to agree with rewarding them with good despite them doing evil. Does a loving father reward his children with good things for their doing evil? No. Neither does God. That is what you fail to grasp. Morality is not upheld with this kind of belief and it violates God being good.

You said:

Christ's sacrifice pays for all of the sins of those who are in him.

Are you suggesting that a saved person who willingly sins becomes unsaved in the moment of their willful sin? Would they then need to be saved again? This is the Catholic view - that willful sin is mortal and leads to a fall from the state of grace. They must be saved again through the sacrament of penance.

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No, it is the Scriptural view. Adam and Eve experienced spiritual death and were separated from God by their one sin. Why do you think they needed a Savior? Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness (in trying to pay for the Spirit) and pray that God would forgive him. Simon just did this one bad thing. But Peter was telling to repent and pray that God would forgiven Him. So he was not saved by what he did. Paul says the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul lists various sins that are attached to that. When a person is temporarily doing unrighteousness, they are unrighteous. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. He that does righteous is righteous (1 John 3:7). John says not to be deceived on this point.

Tree of Life said:

I don't believe it is the Scriptural view, but it certainly is the Roman Catholic view.

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Do you believe in the Trinity?
I do. That does not make me Roman Catholic.

I mean, let's stop and think for a moment. Is it morally good to reward evil while doing evil temporarily? No. Anymore than it is morally good to reward evil while doing evil all the time. This is what you fail to understand. You see the struggle with sin as making it okay. But what if a man struggled with abusing children all his life and he believed in Jesus? Is he saved? I would say that he is not because a person is changed spiritually when they come to Christ and they will not do those kinds of things anymore. What is to stop this person from doing so again in Heaven? Did not Lucifer do evil? He did not need a sin nature. See, the time to do good as a conscious choice is now and not later. Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from him because they also worked iniquity or sin, too (See Matthew 7:23). The way you behave now is the way you are going to behave in the afterlife (Minus a sin nature attached).

What does turning God's grace into a license for immorality (in Jude 1:4) even mean in the belief that says that it is okay to sin and still be saved temporarily? I just do not see how God can agree with a plan of salvation that makes for an allowance for sin because God's thinking is not sinful. Sure, you may say that a believer cannot help but to sin, but the Lord says, with God all things are possible. Meaning, with God we can overcome sin. One does not have to be a slave to their sin (See Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Jason0047 said:

All books in the Bible are written by saved men of God.

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It's doubtful that JAMES, the Father of Judaizerism and salvation-by-works, is saved.

James was killed by the Jews in Jerusalem at around 69AD because he did not heed this word of warning from Jesus Christ ... LUKE.21:20-21 = [The Destruction of Jerusalem] 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

All the 12 apostles escaped the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in 70AD.
@David Cabrera

Tree of Life said:

When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

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It's a pretty interesting waltz, but I let Him lead.