I can't fathom this

JohnB445 said:

It would be wrong for one to exalt themselves to the position of God, because we cannot compare our intelligence with God, his knowledge is much greater than ours.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though there are some things I did not like hearing I accept it as is. It just is hard for me to understand why, because God is just.

From reading the Bible, and the Gospel it is very crystal clear to me on how to get saved. Sincerely Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and have faith in him, and not to believe in vain or depart from the faith. To be born again, we need to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, without it we are dead. And our works cannot save us. I am not saying that we have an excuse to be lawless or go sinning without any repentance, because if we do that than we ought to check if we really did get born again, because those aren't the fruits of the spirit.

But this is the part I have trouble understanding why.

For example, someone believes in Jesus Christ, but they also believe that they need to do good works as well for salvation. Will God really punish this person, because they believed they had to do good works on behalf of believing in Jesus for salvation instead of believing that faith alone will get them saved?

The other thing I can't understand is if a person was raised into a different religion and barely knew about Christianity but he was a good person. Would they be punished because they were in the wrong religion or had the wrong belief?


I accept if this is the case according to the Bible, but it just is hard for me to understand how its fair. When I read it shows to me that the way is very narrow, and Jesus in the only gate. The alternative paths lead to destruction.

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The key is understanding how Sanctification also plays a part in the salvation process is understanding that it is God or Christ doing the good work in you and it is not you alone doing that good work. So all glory, praise, and thanks goes to Jesus for any good done in our lives and it is not ourselves.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).



Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


A Short Break-down of Faith and Works in Regards to Salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are basically saying we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism." James 2:24 is saying we are not saved by "Belief Alone Salvationism" (or Faith Alone as the Bible says).

Both Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 can be read as talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation"; And not Sanctification (as its primary focus). James 2 can be read as talking about Sanctification as its primary focus; And not "Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

I believe a person re-reading these chapters honestly in prayer with God will understand this fact.

As for Romans 3, Romans 4, and Galatians 2, Galatians 3:

Well, I believe these are all talking about how we are not to go back to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or "Law Alone Salvationism." Granted, we are to keep the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) because these are basics in loving or doing good and they are laws that have been repeated in the New Covenant. For this is why Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 5:2, cf. Romans 3:1). In fact, in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we discover that they addressed the problem of trying to be justified in being circumcised to be saved and or going back to the Law of Moses for salvation (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see Galatians 2:3).

Some people like to think that when Paul uses the word "Law" in a negative way (in regards to salvation), they erroneously think that he is also talking about the Moral Law or in loving your neighbor, too. But Paul says that if a person does certain sins (like the breaking of the Moral Law) in Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So yes. You actually have to be good as a part of being in God's Kingdom. For if we did not have to live holy as a part of salvation (After being saved by God's grace), then we can be axe murdering rapists who believe on Jesus. But surely that cannot be. For God is good; And His people are good, too.

Many people I have shown these verses to just glaze over them like a donut being glazed. Every once in a while I may get an explanation on one or two of them, but they are forced explanations that do not really fit the context or what the actual verse says plainly.

In my opinion, there are too many verses that you have to reject and or ignore, twist or change in order to believe in a sin and still be saved type belief. For that is what we are really talking about when we say that we are saved by a belief alone and not by works. This means that we can just live however we like if a belief is truly all that we need to be saved, right?

Some Christians will say that a true Christian will never live an excessively sinful life because they are changed and they are a new creation. But what they are basically saying is that some level of holiness is required to define a saved believer. This means works is required in some way as a part of the salvation equation.

JohnB445 said:

I thank you for your response I read through the whole thing.

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Your welcome.

You said:

For myself would I be doing good? I abstained from sinning as best as I can sometimes I get negative thoughts here or there when something unpleasant happens but I am able to forgive after the day. I feel the Holy Spirit has greatly helped me with this since in the past when I wasn't saved I would get frustrated over things easily and struggle with other sins. But sometimes I do stupid things, but I learn from them.

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I think if we have accepted the Lord Jesus as our Savior, and I think if we are spreading a gospel that is true, and we are loving our neighbor (including the poor and our enemies), and we are seeking to obey the commands of Jesus and His followers, we are doing good.

You said:

For now I study in school, pray, help out parents, study the Bible. And these do not feel like chores to me at all.

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That is great. The things of God should never feel like chores to us.

You said:

But I do not attend a Church.

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The true church is God's people and not a building where believers and unbelievers gather every week. It's not to say that God cannot use such places, but I believe real fellowship is like it was in the New Testament. Believers only (and not unbelievers mixed in) met in each others homes generally. Christians evangelized by going out two by two many times to the outside world. The outside world was not invited in their intimate fellowship of celebrating the Lord's supper every week. But I believe things have changed. We are living in the last days. Home churches are generally frowned upon these days. Many churches I have attended in the past felt like I was attending a special show and not an intimate gathering of believers who would all pray for each other and read the Word together, etc.

JohnB445 said:

It would be wrong for one to exalt themselves to the position of God, because we cannot compare our intelligence with God, his knowledge is much greater than ours.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though there are some things I did not like hearing I accept it as is. It just is hard for me to understand why, because God is just.

From reading the Bible, and the Gospel it is very crystal clear to me on how to get saved. Sincerely Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and have faith in him, and not to believe in vain or depart from the faith. To be born again, we need to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, without it we are dead. And our works cannot save us. I am not saying that we have an excuse to be lawless or go sinning without any repentance, because if we do that than we ought to check if we really did get born again, because those aren't the fruits of the spirit.

But this is the part I have trouble understanding why.

For example, someone believes in Jesus Christ, but they also believe that they need to do good works as well for salvation. Will God really punish this person, because they believed they had to do good works on behalf of believing in Jesus for salvation instead of believing that faith alone will get them saved?

The other thing I can't understand is if a person was raised into a different religion and barely knew about Christianity but he was a good person. Would they be punished because they were in the wrong religion or had the wrong belief?


I accept if this is the case according to the Bible, but it just is hard for me to understand how its fair. When I read it shows to me that the way is very narrow, and Jesus in the only gate. The alternative paths lead to destruction.

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Hello,

There is a difference between believing that something is true and believing in something. For example, take a scenario where a police officer pulled someone over and as they were approaching their car the driver pulled out a gun and pointed it at their chest. If they were to reach for their gun, then they would most likely take a bullet to the chest, but they wearing a bulletproof vest. The officer confidentiality reaching for their gun is the distinction between believing that a bulletproof vest can stop a bullet and believing in it to stop a bullet. So to believe in something requires an element of trust and an element of acting with confidence based on that trust. The way that we act demonstrates what we trust.

Abraham didn't just believe that what God promised was true, but he believed in the promise, so he acted with confidence by not hesitating to offer Isaac, reasoning that God would would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise. So believing in Jesus is not just about believing that Jesus rose from the dead because even the demons believe that, but rather it is about believing about who is in relation to us, about believing in what he accomplished, and about understanding what that means for how we should therefore live our lives.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with having a willingness to obey God's instructions, such as with the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. However, we are not saved by our obedience to the Law, but rather we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience, which is why Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we have been saved by grace through faith, not by works, but rather we have been made creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

So someone who is doing good works because they are trying to earn their salvation instead of because they have faith does believe in Christ because they don't consider what accomplished on the cross to be sufficient and they don't understand what he accomplished means for how they should live their lives. In Jeremiah 6:1-19, God Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if it someone's obedience to God becomes about whether they have done a good enough job, then it robs them of the rest for their souls that the Law was intended to give.

JohnB445 said:

It would be wrong for one to exalt themselves to the position of God, because we cannot compare our intelligence with God, his knowledge is much greater than ours.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though there are some things I did not like hearing I accept it as is. It just is hard for me to understand why, because God is just.

From reading the Bible, and the Gospel it is very crystal clear to me on how to get saved. Sincerely Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and have faith in him, and not to believe in vain or depart from the faith. To be born again, we need to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, without it we are dead. And our works cannot save us. I am not saying that we have an excuse to be lawless or go sinning without any repentance, because if we do that than we ought to check if we really did get born again, because those aren't the fruits of the spirit.

But this is the part I have trouble understanding why.

For example, someone believes in Jesus Christ, but they also believe that they need to do good works as well for salvation. Will God really punish this person, because they believed they had to do good works on behalf of believing in Jesus for salvation instead of believing that faith alone will get them saved?

The other thing I can't understand is if a person was raised into a different religion and barely knew about Christianity but he was a good person. Would they be punished because they were in the wrong religion or had the wrong belief?


I accept if this is the case according to the Bible, but it just is hard for me to understand how its fair. When I read it shows to me that the way is very narrow, and Jesus in the only gate. The alternative paths lead to destruction.

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You left out something very important concerning salvation. Repentance of our sins. But that is commonly overlooked today. Most do not even understand the concept of repentance.

Soyeong said:

Hello,

There is a difference between believing that something is true and believing in something. For example, take a scenario where a police officer pulled someone over and as they were approaching their car the driver pulled out a gun and pointed it at their chest. If they were to reach for their gun, then they would most likely take a bullet to the chest, but they wearing a bulletproof vest. The officer confidentiality reaching for their gun is the distinction between believing that a bulletproof vest can stop a bullet and believing in it to stop a bullet. So to believe in something requires an element of trust and an element of acting with confidence based on that trust. The way that we act demonstrates what we trust.

Abraham didn't just believe that what God promised was true, but he believed in the promise, so he acted with confidence by not hesitating to offer Isaac, reasoning that God would would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise. So believing in Jesus is not just about believing that Jesus rose from the dead because even the demons believe that, but rather it is about believing about who is in relation to us, about believing in what he accomplished, and about understanding what that means for how we should therefore live our lives.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with having a willingness to obey God's instructions, such as with the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. However, we are not saved by our obedience to the Law, but rather we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience, which is why Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we have been saved by grace through faith, not by works, but rather we have been made creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

So someone who is doing good works because they are trying to earn their salvation instead of because they have faith does believe in Christ because they don't consider what accomplished on the cross to be sufficient and they don't understand what he accomplished means for how they should live their lives. In Jeremiah 6:1-19, God Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if it someone's obedience to God becomes about whether they have done a good enough job, then it robs them of the rest for their souls that the Law was intended to give.

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You bring up a good point. Believing.that Christ existed is not the same as believing upon Christ. One is just admitting.that a guy lived. What is required is our love for Him. Our belief that He is God. That His love for us was above His love of life as we know life.

JohnB445 said:

Sometimes when people attack Christianity, I kinda get thrown off by their lies and misinterpretations. And my belief is not that strong.

But then when I look into it and debunk the lies, my faith gets stronger in return.

But is that bad, that sometimes I doubt?

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Doubt is never good. You will find it will pass if you continue to believe and pray for better faith. Prayer is the answer to doubt.

JohnB445 said:

Sometimes when people attack Christianity, I kinda get thrown off by their lies and misinterpretations. And my belief is not that strong.

But then when I look into it and debunk the lies, my faith gets stronger in return.

But is that bad, that sometimes I doubt?

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It is good to question whether our beliefs are really true. The leads us to dig deeper in order to examine the reasons that we have for holding a belief, which leads us to find stronger reasons for believing, or which leads us to realize that the reasons that we have for believing weren't as strong as we thought they were so that we can reinforce true beliefs and dismiss false beliefs. The problem comes when we wrongly dismiss true beliefs or wrongly reinforce false beliefs, but such is the risk inherent in learning. Nobody has a set beliefs that are all 100% true, and if we don't interact with people that we disagree with, then we will never find out which of the beliefs that we currently hold to be true are actually false.

So it's good to take stock of our beliefs from time to time. It's also good for our own sake to learn how to be able to articulate what we believe and why we believe it even if we don't convince anyone else that our beliefs are true. Facing our doubts can lead to having a much stronger faith than if we had tried to ignore them and can cause us to be much better equipped to handle doubts in the future by reviewing the reasons that we have for believing.

Edward Feser defined "faith" is "the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it."

So the problem with doubt is not in questioning whether our beliefs are really true, but with losing focus on what reason has discovered to it. In other words, the problem is when we have solid reasons for believing that something is true, but we waver and don't act with the confidence level that we ought to have.

JohnB445 said:

Thanks, but yes my faith is getting stronger over the years the more I learn.

Islam has been attacking Christianity a lot, saying things like the Bible is corrupt and sometimes I get confused.

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David Wood has some excellent videos on Islam on youtube that I would encourage you to watch if you haven't heard of him.

JohnB445 said:

The other thing I can't understand is if a person was raised into a different religion and barely knew about Christianity but he was a good person. Would they be punished because they were in the wrong religion or had the wrong belief?

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If I understand the first part of Romans correctly, those who have never heard the gospel of Christ will be judged on the basis of their own consciences. If they have sinned against their own conscience, that is how they will be judged. Romans also says that the evidence that there is the Living God is all around us in creation, and so any person can view creation and acknowledge and worship the Living God. Even the Athenians in the time of Paul had an altar to the "Unknown God:, whom Paul explained when he preached to them.

There is an interest verse that says that that Gospel will be preached to every nation and every people and then will the end come. Does this mean that every single nation, including all the pagan ones, will come under the preaching of the gospel before the second coming of Christ? This is what the Wycliffe Bible Translators believe, and they are working hard to translate the Bible in every human language, because in doing that, they are hastening the return of Christ.

JohnB445 said:

...
But this is the part I have trouble understanding why.
...

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All good concerns. Long post folllows, but it is necessary so the latter portions make sense.

A Stable Reality is Essential for Us
How would you like it if none of the effects of your actions were predictable? That is, God decided what would happen if you made a left turn driving down a street—sometimes you turned left, but also sometimes you ended up like you had turned right, gone straight, or turned around. That would be a different environment than the reality God has established for us. We were not made for that kind of environment. We need a certain kind of predictability of what will result from our actions, otherwise we'd go insane (disconnect from reality).

God does not normally alter the way things work, because he decided how things should work—perfectly, and the way our universe works does not demand any moral decisions. Morality does not apply at this level. In other words, we must accept the reality God has made for us. There is no moral argument that it should be different (see Romans 9:19-20ish). One example is that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This does not require a judgment on God's part for it to happen. It is the way God created our reality. It would happen even if God stopped paying attention for a moment and didn't notice the sin (Romans 5:13-14).

Cause and Effect is Godly
Part of our reality are the physical laws of our universe. Again there is no moral argument we can make to God that any of it should be different. If you use a knife to stab yourself in the foot, to what degree is that God's fault? God could have blunted the knife at the last moment and you would have been saved. But he had no moral responsibility to do so. If he made a habit of that sort of thing, then it would alter our reality. Even doing it once alters our reality—sometimes called a miracle, but we can trust that whenever God does that, it is not harming us. However, our reality is perfect, so there is actually no moral demand that God ever do anything to change it. Morality is a part of the equation for willful actions, not for how the universe works, and it already works perfectly—there is no way to improve how it works.

Your friend drops a bowling ball on your foot unexpectedly and it hurts. Who's fault is that? To what degree is it God's for not warning you ahead of time? To what degree is it God's because he didn't stop gravity from working temporarily to prevent the ball from hitting you? The idea that "if God were a God of love, he would have done something" should seem a little silly in the context I've explained. The most loving thing God can do is to not let anything alter our reality, so that cause and effect happen normally—in ways that we can anticipate. If we couldn't anticipate the short-term effects of actions, then we would not have control of simple things.

This is no small thing. Satan wants to alter our reality and can do so to some degree. Sustaining the way our perfect reality works is a fortress against the work of Satan. Satan can alter reality for people through blinding people spiritually and deception. You might say that Satan has not altered reality, but rather convinced us of a reality that is fake. However, if the result of actions are experiences as defined by the fake reality, then for the people affected, that really is their reality. (Side note: our experience of reality depends on our faith, and the capabilities of the object of our faith.)

However, some consequences to actions cannot be learned experientially such as the effects of our actions on our great-great-grandchildren, and some are simply invisible to us. So God explained the long-term consequences of our actions in many ways for us, including through stories, and gave them to us in the form of the Bible. And even then, we are too dull (spiritually blind) to understand what it means, so he did not "leave us as orphans" and sent the Holy Spirit to live in us and teach us (Romans 14:15-18). Being born again lifts the "veil" away that was making what we see distorted (2 Corinthians 3:14-17). Then we can learn the Truth of our reality.

Only in a reality-stable world can we have full free will. God overriding our free will alters the nature of free will, but he won't ever, ever do that, because the free will he has given us is the same free will he has (man made in his image). God granted us one of his attributes perfectly—what an amazing gift, to be made like the One who is perfect in every way, never was tainted by sin, and has the name above every name that can be named. There is no way to improve our free will, such as altering it to include his intervention when we're about to do something dangerous, but only God sees that it is dangerous.

God is glorified whenever we do good with our free will, but God is also glorified when evil is done (but it is bad for the one who does it), for the perfect way his reality works is shown sustained (among other reasons). Note that God's glory from evil done will be revealed on Judgment Day.

Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved. (Romans 3:7-8, 1984 NIV)

So, in the context of this thread (and many others), the consequences of sin that come upon people—into the world—happen because God is protecting our free will, made in God's image, and given to us as an awesome gift. The moral component of the misuse of our free will (so evil will result) has nothing to do with God. We are blind, but he has revealed more than enough truth to everyone in the world. The responsibility is entirely ours for sharing and explaining the truth to others. So are the consequences of sin. There was a time when everybody on earth knew the truth. Some chose not to train their children in the truth and others knew the truth and rejected God. That's why we lived in a screwed up world. When we do the same things, we affirm our agreement with their actions. Thankfully, God only punishes the one who sinned, even though it taints and twists reality for families, communities, and all future generations.

It's easy to get spoiled from knowing God is active in the world and saves in spite of our blindness and messed up reality, but all that work results in undeserved gifts. Salvation is a gift that no one deserves. Wondering why god isn't saving everybody is to reject our perfect cause and effect and assigning a moral imperative to God where one does not exist. The real question is, why aren't we doing what God said so the most people will be saved? Thankfully, God is willing to alter our reality back—if we choose to submit our free will to his, thus stopping his alterations to our reality from being immoral..

JohnB445 said:

It would be wrong for one to exalt themselves to the position of God, because we cannot compare our intelligence with God, his knowledge is much greater than ours.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though there are some things I did not like hearing I accept it as is. It just is hard for me to understand why, because God is just.

From reading the Bible, and the Gospel it is very crystal clear to me on how to get saved. Sincerely Believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and have faith in him, and not to believe in vain or depart from the faith. To be born again, we need to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, without it we are dead. And our works cannot save us. I am not saying that we have an excuse to be lawless or go sinning without any repentance, because if we do that than we ought to check if we really did get born again, because those aren't the fruits of the spirit.

But this is the part I have trouble understanding why.

For example, someone believes in Jesus Christ, but they also believe that they need to do good works as well for salvation. Will God really punish this person, because they believed they had to do good works on behalf of believing in Jesus for salvation instead of believing that faith alone will get them saved?

The other thing I can't understand is if a person was raised into a different religion and barely knew about Christianity but he was a good person. Would they be punished because they were in the wrong religion or had the wrong belief?


I accept if this is the case according to the Bible, but it just is hard for me to understand how its fair. When I read it shows to me that the way is very narrow, and Jesus in the only gate. The alternative paths lead to destruction.

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God is infinitely just and merciful, while we aren't. He judges based on what we do with what we're given, and part of that gift is knowledge. Anyway, Luke 12:48 as well as the Parable of the Talents apply here.

And none of us, BTW, are omniscient or have perfect understanding of everything, which means that our theology as well will be imperfect. There will be at least some surprises for everyone when we arrive in heaven.