Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

emekrus said:

I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.”

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In my view, these promises of radical blessings (and many others like it) will literally be fulfilled in the yet-future new heavens and new earth.

Tomorrow will never come. Yesterday someone told me today would be tomorrow.....But when i came to them to today....they only push tomorrow off into the future again. The only time is now.......

Strong in Him said:

The problem with linking wealth, or material blessing, with obedience - apart from that it's works, "God blessed me because I ....." - is that it implies that Christians who are unemployed/have awful jobs/are ill/suffer with depression etc etc, are that way because they are not being obedient or don't have faith.

God blesses because he blesses.
He blesses us with gifts and the ability to work hard. Yet some Christians find it hard to get a job or discover where God wants them to be, while others have the privilege of saying "I have served God for 30 years as ......."
My husband was a teacher 30+ years. He went into teaching because he couldn't think what else to do; he may not even have been a Christian at the time.
I was training to be a nurse for people with learning disabilities, believing that that was where God wanted me to be. I did not finish the training; I became ill with M.E which I had for 18 years, and, mostly, couldn't work.
This does not prove that my husband had more faith, and was more obedient/faithful than I was.

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Also, there are a heck of a lot of well-to-do pagans.

RaymondG said:

So when you get more than you need....when you have money left over after paying your monthly bills....when you have more money left after buying your food.....It is Satan that gave this surplus... to lead you away from the Lord?

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No. That is money to go into the Body of Christ.

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.

At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need.

The goal is equality, as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.” 2 Corinthians 8

RaymondG said:

So it is ok to let those who desire to be naturally rich, to be naturally rich, and those that desire poverty to stay therein, correct?

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If a Christian has a lot of money, desires even more and is trying hard to get it, by whatever means, they maybe need to be gently challenged about their gods or their priorities.
If a Christian has decided, before God, to live simply/take a vow of poverty, that is up to them. I would admire, rather than challenge, it and yes, they should be allowed to do what they have decided to do.

I don't think that most people choose to be poor, use foodbanks or whatever.

RaymondG said:

There are some to love to give....so it is only right that they obtain more, to continue giving more......

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No, it's not "only right" - people can give in many ways other than financially.
Voluntary organisations are crying out for people to volunteer and give time so that children can be taught, older people fed/taken out/cared for or the sick visited.

If the Lord has given a Christian a good job, they make lots more money than they need and they enjoy giving away the surplus, or if they have a gift for making money and they use that to benefit charities by fundraising; good for them. They are using the gift they have been given for good.
But I don't believe a Christian has a right to make/pray for lots of money.
I've heard of prosperity teachers telling people how to pray for and "command" money to come to them. These teachers may say, "oh, we're doing it so that we can give it away", but how many houses, cars or private jets do they have?
I've heard people say that when a Christian has lots of money and a wealthy lifestyle it shows non Christians that God blesses his people. No; it shows non Christians that Christians are materialistic and say one thing and do something else. Non Christians may not believe in God or have received Jesus, but show then a rich Christian and they will almost certainly make some comment/find a Bible verse about Jesus caring for the poor.

RaymondG said:

I dont link spiritually to money at all, nor to I link rich to the amount of dollars one has in the bank.

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RaymondG said:

Everyone should feel good, receiving just what they ask for from the Lord.....without worry of what those outside would think of it's reception.

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If someone is poor and they're asking the Lord to provide; that's absolutely fine.
What I don't think is fine is for rich Christians to ask God for even more money, teach that Christians have a right to do this and that what the Lord really wants is for all Christians to be financially well off. It is also not right - and I'm sure you're not saying this - to imply that financial blessings are the result of, or the reward for, faith.

Strong in Him said:

I've heard people say that when a Christian has lots of money and a wealthy lifestyle it shows non Christians that God blesses his people. No; it shows non Christians that Christians are materialistic and say one thing and do something else. Non Christians may not believe in God or have received Jesus, but show then a rich Christian and they will almost certainly make some comment/find a Bible verse about Jesus caring for the poor.

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Indeed.

Nowhere does scripture say that by seeing our wealth pagans will praise God.

Rather, it says that by seeing how we love one another, pagans will praise God.

Strong in Him said:

If a Christian has a lot of money, desires even more and is trying hard to get it, by whatever means, they maybe need to be gently challenged about their gods or their priorities.
If a Christian has decided, before God, to live simply/take a vow of poverty, that is up to them. I would admire, rather than challenge, it and yes, they should be allowed to do what they have decided to do.

I don't think that most people choose to be poor, use foodbanks or whatever.

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A Christian does not have to try hard to get money...They already have everything. And God will withhold no good thing from them. It is those who haven't fully realized this....who feel that one is rich, and the other poor. So instead of doubting and guessing the motives of the rich and what they do to get what they have....Why not try HIM and see?

You choose to admire the ones who take a vow of poverty.....I choose to admire the ones who take the vow of poverty as well as those who choose to be rich. They are both asking for and receiving what they desire....Who am i to say one desire is better or worse than the other....Im just happy that they both are getting what they want.

Strong in Him said:

No, it's not "only right" - people can give in many ways other than financially.
Voluntary organisations are crying out for people to volunteer and give time so that children can be taught, older people fed/taken out/cared for or the sick visited.

If the Lord has given a Christian a good job, they make lots more money than they need and they enjoy giving away the surplus, or if they have a gift for making money and they use that to benefit charities by fundraising; good for them. They are using the gift they have been given for good.
But I don't believe a Christian has a right to make/pray for lots of money.
I've heard of prosperity teachers telling people how to pray for and "command" money to come to them. These teachers may say, "oh, we're doing it so that we can give it away", but how many houses, cars or private jets do they have?
I've heard people say that when a Christian has lots of money and a wealthy lifestyle it shows non Christians that God blesses his people. No; it shows non Christians that Christians are materialistic and say one thing and do something else. Non Christians may not believe in God or have received Jesus, but show then a rich Christian and they will almost certainly make some comment/find a Bible verse about Jesus caring for the poor.

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Yes, people can give in many ways.....yet who are we to say one way to give is better than others? How is visiting the sick, more holy than buying that sick person expensive medicine that can help ease their pain?

If the Lord Give someone a good job that makes a lot of money.....I thank God for blessing them....PERIOD. I dont then start thinking about what they should or shouldnt do with what the Lord Bless them with. This is not my job. My job is to take care of what God has given me.

One who spends time analyzing another's bank account and spending habits is in endanger of making money their master. You are Christian....you have everything and you are content. so why care about what your neighbor has and what he does with what he has? When I see someone in need....I wouldnt think about others who can give from their surplus....I would give from mine.

It is the Christian who analyse another's possessions and money, and then make natural and spiritual judgments about them, that shows that Christians are materialistic.

Strong in Him said:

If someone is poor and they're asking the Lord to provide; that's absolutely fine.
What I don't think is fine is for rich Christians to ask God for even more money, teach that Christians have a right to do this and that what the Lord really wants is for all Christians to be financially well off. It is also not right - and I'm sure you're not saying this - to imply that financial blessings are the result of, or the reward for, faith.

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The bible teaches what we have a right to do. many scriptures have been posted on this thread....yet to brush them off and say it isnt for the natural.

The bottom line is that if you ask, you will receive. You can test it or not, and I will still be fine. You can ask for a little or for a lot and I will still be fine. You can be poor or rich and these facts alone would not lead me to believe you are more or less spiritual. You can be celibate or have 13 children, and these facts alone, would not lead me to believe you are more or less spiritual.

Them that walk after the spirit, no longer mind the things of the flesh. I will be happy seeing you get what you desire....be it an Oldsmobile, or a Ferrari, and I would not try to judge your relationship with God based on which you choose, because only God knows the contents of the heart.....

RDKirk said:

Indeed.

Nowhere does scripture say that by seeing our wealth pagans will praise God.

Rather, it says that by seeing how we love one another, pagans will praise God.

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Do you feel that it is loving to judge another christian by the amount of money they have and what they do with it?

RaymondG said:

Do you feel that it is loving to judge another christian by the amount of money they have and what they do with it?

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Jesus is certainly going to judge us by what we have done with our money.

Have you seriously not read any of His parables on stewardship?

Jesus' parables about stewards ought to scare us fat Western Christians out of our socks, because they assure us that there will be an accounting, and in every one of His stewardship parables, somebody gets whacked hard.

A pastor has said, "The Body of Christ has all the resources in hand to support the Body of Christ."

And he's right. We who call ourselves Christian have enough wealth among us to ensure nobody else who calls himself Christian should ever go homeless, hungry, or naked.

Yes, Christ has made His Body wealthy by giving many of use the role and spiritual gift of giving (Romans 9), and those with that gift--those of us who have plenty more than our daily needs consistently met--should be using our plenty to support those who have not been given that gift (2 Corinthians 8:13-15).

RaymondG said:

Do you feel that it is loving to judge another christian by the amount of money they have and what they do with it?

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He wasn't.
He simply made the statement that non Christians will not look at a Christian's wealth and that it will lead them to praise God.

emekrus said:

Ecclesiastes 9:14-16
14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it:

15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man.

16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.

The above is scriptural reply to your post. What do you make of this?

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No it isn't.
I know your question isn't addressed to me, but it was my post that was quoted originally, so forgive me for answering.

1. Ecclesiastes is Old Testament. It was probably written by Solomon, Chapter 1 verse 1 speaks of a son of David. The theme is, everything is meaningless because it is temporary and will fail - except remembering and trusting God.
2. If it was written by Solomon, he was a man who was very wealthy, wise and started by trusting God. But by the end of his life he had fallen away, been led into idol worship by his many wives.
3. Why not start reading from Ecclesiastes 5:8 - where the heading is "riches are meaningless"?
4. Ecclesiastes 9:13 says "I saw this example of wisdom that impressed me". The verses are about how someone's wisdom saved a city from a rich man.
They do not say that a believer in God had a lot of money and this wealth caused non Christians to praise God; which was the point I was originally making.

Jesus said that people will know that we are his disciples by our love, not our money.
Jesus said that we will know a tree by its fruit.
Jesus told us to let our light shine so that people would see our good deeds and praise our Father in heaven.
Love and good deeds cause non believers to praise God and recognise that we belong to Jesus; not money.

Strong in Him said:

He wasn't.
He simply made the statement that non Christians will not look at a Christian's wealth and that it will lead them to praise God.

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You are good at spotting offenses....even if they are not there. I was asking him a general question, not saying that he was doing anything. I didnt get, from his response, that he felt i was talking about him either.....but i am not good at looking for and spotting offenses.....so i could be wrong.

RaymondG said:

A Christian does not have to try hard to get money...They already have everything.

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So Christians don't have to work for a living? No Christian will ever be in debt, get burgled, need to use a food bank?
I don't think so.

RaymondG said:

And God will withhold no good thing from them.

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So God is a cash machine/celestial Father Christmas; guaranteed to give material things to those who believe in him?

RaymondG said:

So instead of doubting and guessing the motives of the rich and what they do to get what they have....Why not try HIM and see?

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I wasn't.
What I was meaning was that if a Christian had lots of money and was focused on that money and how to get more, rather than knowing and serving God and seeking his will, another Christian/Minister of a church might need to suggest that they have their priorities wrong. That's all. It's not up to me how much money another Christian has, nor what they do with it - but if it becomes an idol for them, it's not wrong to point that out.

I don't know what you mean by "try HIM and see". I believe and trust in God already, thank you.

RaymondG said:

You choose to admire the ones who take a vow of poverty.....I choose to admire the ones who take the vow of poverty as well as those who choose to be rich.

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Good for you.
I neither admire, nor hate, someone who chooses to be rich.
But I dislike anyone who preys on poor people by saying "send some money to my ministry to show God you are serious and you WILL get loads back". Or "plant a 'seed' [i.e send me some money] and it will grow/I'll pray for you."

RaymondG said:

They are both asking for and receiving what they desire....Who am i to say one desire is better or worse than the other....Im just happy that they both are getting what they want.

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If a rich person chooses to say "Lord, I need another Bentley and believe you will provide it"; that is between them and God. If they see God as being a celestial Father Christmas; that is up to them.
They will die one day, leave everything behind and then have to face God without all their wealth - but it's up to them.

To be continued

Continued

RaymondG said:

Yes, people can give in many ways.....yet who are we to say one way to give is better than others? How is visiting the sick, more holy than buying that sick person expensive medicine that can help ease their pain?

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I never said it was, nor do I necessarily think that.

RaymondG said:

If the Lord Give someone a good job that makes a lot of money.....I thank God for blessing them....PERIOD. I dont then start thinking about what they should or shouldnt do with what the Lord Bless them with. This is not my job.

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Nor mine; it's not something I go around doing.
I was thinking of Christians who may make an idol out of wealth - or believe that they are entitled to have more of it, or have it at all.

God gives us ALL things - life, salvation, creation to enjoy, food, jobs and every spiritual blessing in Christ.
He does not OWE us, and having a comfortable and easy life is not his main concern for us.
His will is that we come to Jesus and have eternal life, John 6:40, that we love as he loves us, John 13:35 and that we go and make disciples and preach the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20.

RaymondG said:

One who spends time analyzing another's bank account and spending habits is in endanger of making money their master.

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Well it's a good job I don't do that then.

RaymondG said:

The bible teaches what we have a right to do. many scriptures have been posted on this thread....yet to brush them off and say it isnt for the natural.

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If you are saying that the Bible says that we have a right to receive money and material blessings from God; no, we don't.
The only thing we had the right to get from God was death and eternal punishment; we all sinned against him and the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23.
God, in his love and grace, saved us. He did not give us what we do deserve, but what we don't, i.e forgiveness, life, a new heart and every spiritual blessing in Christ. We owe him everything; he owes us nothing.

RaymondG said:

The bottom line is that if you ask, you will receive.

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If we ask in Jesus' name, in line with God's will and the thing we ask for is for his glory.
Asking for flashy cars or more money just because we believe we have a right to them, is not right.
If a person wants to treat their Creator and heavenly Father like that; that's up to them. They may get a rude awakening one day.

RaymondG said:

I will be happy seeing you get what you desire....be it an Oldsmobile, or a Ferrari, and I would not try to judge your relationship with God based on which you choose,

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I didn't say that you would.

RaymondG said:

You are good at spotting offenses....even if they are not there. I was acting him a general question, not saying that he was doing anything. I didnt get, from his response, that he felt i was talking about him either.....

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You quoted his post, which ended with the words, "pagans will praise God when they see our love", or something similar. And your question was "do you think it is loving to .....?", which sounded to me like you were criticising.

This other forummer quoted, and agreed with, my post, so I picked up on the implied criticism of him; but I'm probably wrong and shouldn't have done that.
I apologise.

Luke 12:
13 And one from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, say to my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 And He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or partitioner over you?” 15 And He said to them, “Beware, and keep yourselves from all covetousness; for not to anyone is his life in the abundance of that which he possesses.”
16 And He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man brought forth abundantly. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many good things laid up for many years; take your rest; eat, drink, be merry.”’

20 And God said to him, ‘Fool! This night, your soul is required of you;
and what you did prepare—to whom will it be?’
21 So is the one treasuring up for himself, and not being rich toward God.”

Jesus tells a similar parable in Luke 16, where this rich man didn't fare to well:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:
19 And there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry in splendor every day. 20 And a certain poor man named Lazarus, being full of sores, was laid at his gate

22 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
23 And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom

RaymondG said:

So when you get more than you need....when you have money left over after paying your monthly bills....when you have more money left after buying your food.....It is Satan that gave this surplus... to lead you away from the Lord?

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Hello Raymond. You forgot a few 'needs' on your list. Helping the poor, supporting the work of the gospel, helping relatives in financial difficulties. The Lord gives you a surplus, great, amen!

On the other hand, greed, covetousness. One of the fruits of the sin nature. The greedy man never has enough of a surplus to satisfy himself.

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (1 Timothy 6:6-10)

God Bless

lismore said:

Hello Raymond. You forgot a few 'needs' on your list. Helping the poor, supporting the work of the gospel, helping relatives in financial difficulties. The Lord gives you a surplus, great, amen!

On the other hand, greed, covetousness. One of the fruits of the sin nature. The greedy man never has enough of a surplus to satisfy himself.

God Bless

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I think this thread is more about the Christian who is blessed.....not the world who collects and stores for personal pleasure. The questions is asked, is Prosperity for the Christian.....The answer is YES.....All of the negative stuff.....greed, not helping poor, money masters...is being inserted by the repliers, from within the repliers. I cant look on the blessing of another, christian or not, can assume anything negative. It is this type of thought that keep ourselves poor...... money is evil....therefore money will stay away from us because we called it a bad name.....it(money) really is sensitive and petty like that......

LittleLambofJesus said:

Luke 12:
13 And one from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, say to my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 And He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or partitioner over you?” 15 And He said to them, “Beware, and keep yourselves from all covetousness; for not to anyone is his life in the abundance of that which he possesses.”
16 And He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man brought forth abundantly. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many good things laid up for many years; take your rest; eat, drink, be merry.”’

20 And God said to him, ‘Fool! This night, your soul is required of you;
and what you did prepare—to whom will it be?’
21 So is the one treasuring up for himself, and not being rich toward God.”

Jesus tells a similar parable in Luke 16, where this rich man didn't fare to well:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:
19 And there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry in splendor every day. 20 And a certain poor man named Lazarus, being full of sores, was laid at his gate

22 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
23 And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom

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These are wonderful parables......which, when understood....will lead to everlasting life. Do you believe that Jesus was telling us that the amount of dollars and physical possession we had can dictate our entrance to heaven? Think about this carefully, because our souls depend on it.

There was a rich many who was willing to pay all he had, to possess the gifts of the spirit...He said he just wanted to be able to lay his hands on a person and have them receive the holy spirit. Sounds pretty ok right? "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

But doesnt this sound like us today? linking the amount of money a person has to things of the spirit?

So Is Jesus telling us to give up or forgo monies, to ensure entrance to heaven? or to be more holy?

Please dont get me wrong, Im not advocating the chasing of money....quite the contrary.....Im advocating forgetting about money altogether and focusing on the Spirit.

Let us think about it..... Many said, even in this thread....have said that the disciples werent rich financially, and I agree that they werent. so lets take a look.

Jesus said:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"

After this the disciple were astonished out of measure and said:
"Who then can be saved?"

You see? the riches Jesus was talking about affected even the disciples to the point that they felt no one could be save. NO ONE.

And Jesus agreed: With man, it is impossible!

These riches affect you and me whether or not we feel we are materially rich or poor. Would be a shame to get many to believe that all they have to do is maintain middle or lower class lifestyles to get to heaven. For with man, it is impossible. Now Jesus was telling us to give us our riches.....but what riches? I say an advantage goes to the one who understands God doesnt want anything physical.