Faith Plus Works

Alithis · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I will argue against it in other ways whereby it is more effective. I believe Paul did not have to go to prison. While Paul was one of the greatest men of God (than I can think of), he did not take heed to another believer's prophecy in not going to Jerusalem. His love for his people was really great. So no. I am not looking to avoid persecution. I receive that just fine in arguing on many other topics (Including my argument against Eternal Security). Granted, most of it is verbal persecution. But yes. All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. I know that is unavoidable. But we also can be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents, too.

We are also told to escape all these things (i.e. the Tribulation) by being read and being watchful for the Lord's immanent return, as well (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture).

and here we do not understand what it is to walk in gods will.. the prophecy simply aaid what would happen..
paul did not run away to avoid it happening because he already knew this would be the case and was willing to go .
just as Jesus knew the prophecies of HIS physical end .. but determined to go to it anyway.
the concept of a prophecy being directional dictating what some one should do is debunked here.

just like this modern concept the "nar" type crowd are running with .. that prophets are leaders and others should follow their word .. its not so .
the Sons of God are led by the spirit of God .. not by churches, not by prophets, not by man made titles . and i don't adhere to some pretrib rapture teaching that popped up in the last century but never really existed before . No one is caught away until Jesus comes back and he doesn't come back until the son of perdition has been revealed .
PAUL had already been shown by the lord "what things he must suffer " for his names sake ..
the prophecy was only confirming to Paul what Gods will was .
the advice they gave him in begging him not to go was foolish advice -they were pleading with him to NOT do gods will
it was the same error peter had made when Jesus said that he would be put to death .
we are to eat and drink the cup put before us .. if its the same cup the lord partook of then we too are to partake of it .
people seeking to flee Gods will are certainly not his disciples -they are people running away from being disciples . People seeking to be caught away before they have known him in the fellowship of his suffering .. will not ever know him in the power of his Resurrection .there is no ressurection without death

Alithis · Sep 12, 2018

Loren T. said:
I am not reformed, more like armininan, but I would not say our works merit salvation. Faith is the key to obtaining and keeping salvation. Works are the natural results of trusting God.

do you do them then ??

gideon123 · Sep 12, 2018

does anyone think there is a reason why the Apostle Paul wrote the Book of Romans?

Do you think that it matters ... that he wrote it while he had skull fractures and deformed arms and fingers?

Blessings!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2018

Alithis said:
and here we do not understand what it is to walk in gods will.. the prophecy simply aaid what would happen..
paul did not run away to avoid it happening because he already knew this would be the case and was willing to go .
just as Jesus knew the prophecies of HIS physical end .. but determined to go to it anyway.
the concept of a prophecy being directional dictating what some one should do is debunked here.

No, it was a warning and Paul could have avoided going to prison if he took their counsel.

For the disciples through the Spirit told Paul not to go to Jerusalem.

"And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem." (Acts of the Apostles 21:4).

You said:
just like this modern concept the "nar" type crowd are running with .. that prophets are leaders and others should follow their word .. its not so .

I am aware of Bill Johnson and teachers that are part of the NAR group. I am strongly against Bill Johnson's teachings. In fact, what he teaches is rather disturbing. But I do not see how that has anything to do with what I have said.

You said:
the Sons of God are led by the spirit of God .. not by churches, not by prophets, not by man made titles .

I am non-denominational and I do not ascribe to any kind of particular church organization in particular. I also believe that I am led by the Spirit of God (However, I believe that to be a capital "S"). However, we both cannot be right. I believe Scripture, morality, and logic is in my court of defense here.

You said:
and i don't adhere to some pretrib rapture teaching that popped up in the last century but never really existed before .

Funny. I just watched a video today of a Pastor who lists Christians who held to a Pre-Trib Rapture belief before John Nelson Darby.

He also lists some good quick Scriptural points, too.
In fact, the more I study the Pre-Trib Rapture, the more evidence I find for it.
But if you don't want to watch or pray so as to counted worthy to escape all these things, then that is up to you (See Luke 21:36).

You said:
No one is caught away until Jesus comes back and he doesn't come back until the son of perdition has been revealed .
PAUL had already been shown by the lord "what things he must suffer " for his names sake ..
the prophecy was only confirming to Paul what Gods will was .
the advice they gave him in begging him not to go was foolish advice -they were pleading with him to NOT do gods will
it was the same error peter had made when Jesus said that he would be put to death .
we are to eat and drink the cup put before us .. if its the same cup the lord partook of then we too are to partake of it .
people seeking to flee Gods will are certainly not his disciples -they are people running away from being disciples . People seeking to be caught away before they have known him in the fellowship of his suffering .. will not ever know him in the power of his Resurrection .there is no ressurection without death

There is a difference between persecution and tribulation we may face today vs. the 7 year tribulation. They are not the same thing. We can certainly still be persecuted and even killed for our faith even today. No 7 year tribulation is needed. If you feel that being caught up is wrong before a Judgment than maybe you should ask God why He translated Enoch up (with him not seeing death) before a great world wide flood had hit? Enoch could have been with Noah and his family and lived to see that world perish. But Enoch was taken up. In fact, Methuselah died before the global flood happened. Again, this is a parallel. The Tribulation saints will die before the Wrath of God is poured out in the second half of the Tribulation.

discipler7 · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The key is understanding how Sanctification also plays a part in the salvation process is understanding that it is God or Christ doing the good work in you and it is not you alone doing that good work. So all glory, praise, and thanks goes to Jesus for any good done in our lives and it is not ourselves.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses): ...

Seems, this is Legalism 2.0 or Judaizers 2.0, ie requiring Christians to do the works of the Holy Spirit of God or works of the Law/commandments/Word of God, in order to be saved from hell = a doctrine of demons(1TOMOTHY.4:1).?

Specifically, which saves you from hell, your faith in Jesus Christ or your works in Jesus Christ(= works in the Word/Law/Spirit of God).?

It's good for Christians to be doing the works of the Spirit/Christ/God but such works are not a "must" for salvation, especially for some Gentile Christians(cf; ACTS.15:24-29), eg those who suffer from mental disorders, substance/drug abuse(addiction - LEV.10:9), ancestral sins(EXODUS.20:5), the physically disabled, etc.

GALATIANS.2: = 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

GALATIANS.3: = Justification by Faith
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

1CORINTHIANS.5:4-5 = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

JOHN.3:16-18 = 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

discipler7 · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are basically saying we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism." James 2:24 is saying we are not saved by "Belief Alone Salvationism" (or Faith Alone as the Bible says).

Both Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 can be read as talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation"; And not Sanctification (as its primary focus). James 2 can be read as talking about Sanctification as its primary focus; And not "Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

Fyi, JAMES was the Father of Judaizerism.

As the "biological" brother of Jesus Christ, he had likely usurped the position of Bishop of Jerusalem from apostle Peter. Apostle Peter was chosen by God/Jesus as the apostle to the Jews, and yet he was not the Bishop of Jerusalem.

Personally, I take the teachings of JAMES with a pinch of salt because the book of James seek to be saved by the works of the Law, the same as the teachings of the Judaizers.

discipler7 · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses): ...

Not really true.

The Lord Jesus Christ, through His apostle to the Gentiles, ie Paul, commanded the uncircumcised Gentile Christians to remain uncircumcised(= remain without works - ACTS.15:24-29) and they would still be saved from hell through faith. This was to counter the erroneous teaching of James and the Judaizers.

Today, along come some Christians again requiring Gentile Christians to do works, in order to be saved, eg feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit sick prisoners(MATTHEW.25) or etc. This is no different from James and the Judaizers requiring Gentile Christians to be saved by doing the work of circumcision and eating only kosher foods.
....... Imagine such misguided Christians telling Gentile Christians who are mentally or physically disabled and drug addicts/alcoholics that they will only be saved if they have works, eg feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit sick prisoners, etc.

It is good to do the works of circumcision, eating only kosher foods, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit sick prisoners, etc, but works is not a must for salvation. Gentile Christian male babies should be circumcised, but not the adult men.

Danthemailman · Sep 12, 2018

Anna Therese said:
"Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?" - James 2:24

God gives the grace, but one must cooperate with that grace for salvation.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

BNR32FAN · Sep 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

It means that a true faith will produce works. It does not mean that our works play a part in our salvation. It means if someone thinks they have faith but doesn’t do good works their faith is not genuine because it is not producing good works. James 2:14-26 mentions two types of faith. A saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith.

Alithis · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No, it was a warning and Paul could have avoided going to prison if he took their counsel.

For the disciples through the Spirit told Paul not to go to Jerusalem.

"And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem." (Acts of the Apostles 21:4).

I am aware of Bill Johnson and teachers that are part of the NAR group. I am strongly against Bill Johnson's teachings. In fact, what he teaches is rather disturbing. But I do not see how that has anything to do with what I have said.

I am non-denominational and I do not ascribe to any kind of particular church organization in particular. I also believe that I am led by the Spirit of God (However, I believe that to be a capital "S"). However, we both cannot be right. I believe Scripture, morality, and logic is in my court of defense here.

Funny. I just watched a video today of a Pastor who lists Christians who held to a Pre-Trib Rapture belief before John Nelson Darby.

He also lists some good quick Scriptural points, too.
In fact, the more I study the Pre-Trib Rapture, the more evidence I find for it.
But if you don't want to watch or pray so as to counted worthy to escape all these things, then that is up to you (See Luke 21:36).

There is a difference between persecution and tribulation we may face today vs. the 7 year tribulation. They are not the same thing. We can certainly still be persecuted and even killed for our faith even today. No 7 year tribulation is needed. If you feel that being caught up is wrong before a Judgment than maybe you should ask God why He translated Enoch up (with him not seeing death) before a great world wide flood had hit? Enoch could have been with Noah and his family and lived to see that world perish. But Enoch was taken up. In fact, Methuselah died before the global flood happened. Again, this is a parallel. The Tribulation saints will die before the Wrath of God is poured out in the second half of the Tribulation.

i see a lot of this .. lets get the one extreme unusual exception and apply it as the rule .and in so doing ignore everything Jesus ever said . we are to watch and pray ... that we may be found doing his will when he comes . not sitting around pushing preferred doctrines . go out heal the sick ,preach the gospel, drive out devils. baptize in Jesus name and teach them to observe ALL Jesus commanded too.

are we ready to die for him who died for us ?
that it what it means to "follow Jesus "..
Paul knew very well what awaited him he knew to run from it was to avoid the will of god .
just as Jesus knew very well what awaited him .. do you not know that who so ever will live righteously will suffer persecution?..

many believers are not even wiling to give up their gym class
let along their jobs houses .they are filed with much knowledge of doctrine , but so few DO his will . they do other things instead . i know many home church gatherings which have simply miniaturized the same church attitude ..they meet in homes ,sing songs, drink tea, eat cookies and wait for rapture patting themselves on the back for how right they are(in thier own eyes) . but when the lord comes he will say "you wicked and lazy servants " i gave you a task to do and you sat at ease in zion .

BNR32FAN · Sep 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
The Reformers would say that God enables man by the Holy Spirit to choose God and respond to him in faith, but that man's response and act of faith is a legitimate human choice and act.

The Reformers would furthermore say that God's enabling is so effective that man cannot ultimately resist it. When God opens the eyes of the blind, they do freely respond to him.

Would you agree with these formulations?

I would agree that God enables us but I wouldn’t say that we cannot resist it. I think Jesus’ warning in John 15:1-10 is evidence that a believer can choose not to abide in God and can choose not to produce fruit.

Loren T. · Sep 12, 2018

Alithis said:
do you do them then ??

Sometimes.

BNR32FAN · Sep 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Do our good works contribute to meriting our salvation or are they a natural result and component of our salvation?

Good works are a result of having faith. They do not play a role in our salvation. If someone has a genuine faith they adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit urging them to do good works. If someone does not do good works then they are not adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and don’t have a genuine faith. The Greek word pistis is about devotion, not just believing but a sincere love and devotion to God.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2018

Alithis said:
i see a lot of this .. lets get the one extreme unusual exception and apply it as the rule .and in so doing ignore everything Jesus ever said . we are to watch and pray ... that we may be found doing his will when he comes . not sitting around pushing preferred doctrines . go out heal the sick ,preach the gospel, drive out devils. baptize in Jesus name and teach them to observe ALL Jesus commanded too.

are we ready to die for him who died for us ?
that it what it means to "follow Jesus "..
Paul knew very well what awaited him he knew to run from it was to avoid the will of god .
just as Jesus knew very well what awaited him .. do you not know that who so ever will live righteously will suffer persecution?..

many believers are not even wiling to give up their gym class
let along their jobs houses .they are filed with much knowledge of doctrine , but so few DO his will . they do other things instead . i know many home church gatherings which have simply miniaturized the same church attitude ..they meet in homes ,sing songs, drink tea, eat cookies and wait for rapture patting themselves on the back for how right they are(in thier own eyes) . but when the lord comes he will say "you wicked and lazy servants " i gave you a task to do and you sat at ease in zion .

What does it matter to give up things for Jesus if all one needs is a belief alone on Jesus to be saved? Did you not before suggest that we are saved a Belief Alone in Jesus with no works?

As for the Rapture:
Again, persecution and forsaking the things of this world is something I believe a Christian must do as a part of being right with God. But you said before that works are not necessary to be saved. At least, that is the impression I got by what you said before.

Don't confuse persecution now with the Wrath of God being poured out on to the world (of which Christians are not under the Wrath of God). 1 Corinthians 15 is a mystery being revealed. It's a secret being revealed that was not spoken about before. Matthew 24 is public. It is talking about a public and open Rapture. Your confusion arises in the fact that you do not realize there are TWO Raptures. They are distinct and different from each other. Try comparing them and you will see they are different. But if someone wants to be persecuted for the wrong reasons, this can also mean that they feel they have to prove something. People can be persecuted for standing out at abortion centers, etc. But God does not call us to be persecuted in that way. In other words, you are seeking to be persecuted for the wrong reasons. You want to be under the Wrath of God. That's never a good thing. I prefer to be persecuted as God calls me to persecuted in the here and now while there is no Wrath of God being poured out onto the world. But you are free to believe as you wish.

Again, ask yourself.... what does Jesus mean when He tells us to watch and pray so that you may escape all these things (that he just mentioned in regards to the Tribulation)? How exactly are you escaping all these things? Do you just tear that verse out of your Bible because you don't like it?

BNR32FAN · Sep 12, 2018

Alithis said:
i see a lot of this .. lets get the one extreme unusual exception and apply it as the rule .and in so doing ignore everything Jesus ever said . we are to watch and pray ... that we may be found doing his will when he comes . not sitting around pushing preferred doctrines . go out heal the sick ,preach the gospel, drive out devils. baptize in Jesus name and teach them to observe ALL Jesus commanded too.

are we ready to die for him who died for us ?
that it what it means to "follow Jesus "..
Paul knew very well what awaited him he knew to run from it was to avoid the will of god .
just as Jesus knew very well what awaited him .. do you not know that who so ever will live righteously will suffer persecution?..

many believers are not even wiling to give up their gym class
let along their jobs houses .they are filed with much knowledge of doctrine , but so few DO his will . they do other things instead . i know many home church gatherings which have simply miniaturized the same church attitude ..they meet in homes ,sing songs, drink tea, eat cookies and wait for rapture patting themselves on the back for how right they are(in thier own eyes) . but when the lord comes he will say "you wicked and lazy servants " i gave you a task to do and you sat at ease in zion .

I think your taking the idea to the extreme. Not every believer in the Bible sold all their possessions and went out to do missionary work. There are many people who we can evangelize to in our own towns and on the Internet. I think the question is did we do good work or did we do nothing. Do we help those in need? Do we spread the gospel. Our works will earn us rewards in heaven but it won’t earn our salvation. But if we have a complete lack of compassion for others and do no good works I believe that is evidence that we don’t have faith.

discipler7 · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses): ...

Then, why did God wrote this verse - LUKE.23:43 = 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” , about a Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus Christ who would be in Paradise without doing any good works after coming into faith in Christ.?
....... If what Jason0047 says is true, God would have required the about-to-be-crucified/die robber to do some good works, in order to remain saved, eg by translating him to another place and forgiving him of his sins of robbery = be not crucified, ie let him lived on to do good works like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting sick prisoners, etc.

MATTHEW.23: = 13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

corinth77777 · Sep 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
It matters a great deal.

If our good works merit salvation for us then it is no longer by grace. It's something we've partially earned and we have grounds for boasting.

But if even our good works are a gracious gift from God, then all glory goes to God and salvation is entirely of God's free grace.

Either God saves us out of free grace or he saves us because we, in part, deserve to be saved.

We are saved from
The wrath of God

And

We are saved from circumstances in the world we live in now.

So if you do not distinguish which scripture is referring to you will misunderstand.

Jesus is the source of Salvation
He became the source by He alone dying on the cross and rising from the dead

That makes the source "not any works of righteousness we have done"

We are not save by trying to live up to the law by our own power...nor by our own righteous standards.

We are saved through Jesus's faithfulness to the Father alone.

Once you are saved from the penalty of sin you still must live this life, in this world. And you are saved in this world by obedience to Christ.

Now you must work out the salvation that you received. And when you work it out, you know that you have life...because you will have "life" zoe, abundant joyful, peace.[in this world you live in now while you are alive]

Therefore any circumstances you come across will not affect you the way it would another because you know God is in controll.

Tree of Life · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Okay first. When Paul talks about the Law he is not talking about the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. Paul is talking about the Law of Moses as a whole or package deal and Paul is talking about "Law Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace).

When Paul is speaking against the Law in regards to salvation, Paul is fightimg against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is in essence saying that you are saved by Law Alone and not grace):

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

3 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (Galatians 2:3-4).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

In fact, at the Jerusalem counsel they addressed the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" and in going back to the Law of Moses to be saved.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was not talking about how we are exempt from the "Moral Law" (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) in relation to being right with God. For Paul says if any man does those things (like murder, etc.) they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Second, the good works done in my life are not my works alone, but they are the works of the Lord being done through me. I surrender to Christ and He does the good work. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). The works are proof that Jesus lives in us. No Jesus and we have no life (1 John 5:12).

In all your hemming and hawing you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that any works that you do measure up to God's perfect standard of loving the Lord and loving your neighbor?

Halbhh · Sep 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

Living faith -- faith that is existing -- takes actions.

Without actions, faith isn't alive, as James and Paul and Peter and John and Christ tell us in various ways.

One very clear instance past the famous words from James and Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10) is the powerful warning and encouragement from Christ Jesus to you and to me in Matthew 7:24-27.

Very helpful are the exact full words of Christ to you and me in John chapter 15 verses 1 through 17.

https://biblehub.com/niv/john/15.htm

Tree of Life · Sep 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No sir. That is not the Biblical answer. That is your answer. Jesus tells us to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

The point in Jesus saying this is to reveal the true demands of the Law precisely because we cannot keep them. The sermon on the mount shows us how deep God's commands go and exposes our sin at the deepest level. We need the grace and the righteousness of Christ because our own righteousness is stained with sin.

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus was not actually lying. He actually meant that. Jesus was also not saying this as a way for you to see how you cannot keep His laws, either. The end of Matthew 19 proves the point in how we are to forsake the things within in our life as a part of eternal life.

You cannot be a saved person and at the same time rely on the saving power of your own righteous works. You need to repent of this damnable heresy!

Faith Plus Works

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He’s a Way of life

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