Faith Plus Works

Soyeong · Sep 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Do our good works contribute to meriting our salvation or are they a natural result and component of our salvation?

To use an analogy, if someone were to give you a movie as a free gift and were to remain on your shelf unwatched, then there would be a sense that it belong to you, but there would also be a sense that you hadn't really received what was given until you watch it even though watching it does nothing to earn the gift. Or if someone were to pay for your college tuition as a free gift, there would be a sense that you had not really received what was given if you were to never attend classes even though attending classes does nothing to earn what was given.

In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation from sin as being trained by grace to obey God and to, so participating in this training grace through faith to live in obedience to God is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like, and what it means to really receive the free gift of God's grace, not something done to merit our salvation.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so there is no sense in speaking about being saved from living in transgression of God's Law apart from our need to repent from our disobedience to it. However, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so we are not saved by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience.

According to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that describe what God's Law was given to do. According to 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away with the error of Lawless men. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into license for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Law (Psalms 40:8), so grace is the power of God to overcome Lawlessness in our lives and it is by grace that God teaches us to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

Apologetic_Warrior · Sep 11, 2018

Afra said:
No, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Key words are: "go on sinning deliberately"

Those who do such, were they ever saved to begin with? Those whom God perseveres with, He also preserves, His grace and mercy being the preservative. He who began a good work will finish it, the author of faith is the finisher of faith, the captain and perfecter, Christ Jesus.

Afra · Sep 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
One of the seven like lust?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438a.htm

Afra · Sep 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Amen. I could not agree more.

Key words are: "go on sinning deliberately".

Amen. I could not agree more.

Those who do such, were they ever saved to begin with?

Answer the question for yourself. The text says if "we" go on deliberately sinning. Was the author saved, or unsaved, when he wrote those words? Were the words written to Christians or non-Christians? Does the text state that the persons being referred to were sanctified by the blood of the covenant? Is someone who is sanctified by the blood of the covenant saved, or unsaved?

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Interpreting 1 John 1:8 in this way is like saying "go on sinning deliberately" because one is admitting to themselves that they will always sin.

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the gnostic belief that denied the existence of sin. For 1 John 1:10 is a denial of past sin. We both agree that we have sinned in the past. So this is a gnostic belief that John is warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26).

You said:
Key words are: "go on sinning deliberately"

Those who do such, were they ever saved to begin with? Those whom God perseveres with, He also preserves, His grace and mercy being the preservative. He who began a good work will finish it, the author of faith is the finisher of faith, the captain and perfecter, Christ Jesus.

So you are saying Christ Jesus does the good work in you? I believe that, too. I believe all good works and or obedience done in a believer's life is by all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity. But where we diverge is in your message. You say we are saved by God's grace and nothing else. This sends the wrong message because people can think you mean that we can sin and still be saved because "sin" can fall under the "nothing else" category.

Not David · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Interpreting 1 John 1:8 in this way is like saying "go on sinning deliberately" because one is admitting to themselves that they will always sin.

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the gnostic belief that denied the existence of sin. For 1 John 1:10 is a denial of past sin. We both agree that we have sinned in the past. So this is a gnostic belief that John is warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26).

So you are saying Christ Jesus does the good work in you? I believe that, too. I believe all good works and or obedience done in a believer's life is by all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity. But where we diverge is in your message. You say we are saved by God's grace and nothing else. This sends the wrong message because people can think you mean that we can sin and still be saved because "sin" can fall under the "nothing else" category.

I believe it's kind of erroneous to think that a real Christian won't be committing the same sins when one can find a excuse for anything.

redleghunter · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Why would James tell dead people about how faith without works is dead?

I think you just answered your own question.

redleghunter · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Interpreting 1 John 1:8 in this way is like saying "go on sinning deliberately"

No, no it does not. You are introducing that idea.

redleghunter · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Just saying it is a straw man argument does not mean anything.

Ok. Your eclectic interpretation leads to straw man arguments.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
I think you just answered your own question.

No. I am refuting your belief because James is condemning those who have respect of persons and drives home his point in the fact that their faith is dead without works. James is telling them this so as to get them to love their neighbor and not have respect of persons. If James believed they were dead spiritually speaking he would have never written that letter to begin with.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
Ok. Your eclectic interpretation leads to straw man arguments.

Again, you prove nothing but in the fact that you can hit the "disagree button."
You need to actually have reasons to back up what you are saying is true and what I am saying is not true. So far, I have brought forth evidence in God's Word, logic, and real world examples to demolish the "Belief Alone in Jesus + Nothing else" type belief.

For if what you say is true, there would be no warnings in Scripture about how how certain sins can have dire consequences to a person's soul in the after life (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:30-46, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 22:14-15).

Childofgodharrison · Sep 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

Faith by works mean, the way that you live your life. Not sinning and walking as Jesus did when he was on the earth.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
No, no it does not. You are introducing that idea.

So you don't believe you will always be in sin as per 1 John 1:8?
If you are truly OSAS, I highly doubt that is what you believe.
Most OSAS proponents I have encountered use 1 John 1:8 as their banner flag to say that everyone sins, so do not focus or worry about sin for we all sin. They interpret 1 John 1:8 as saying, a person is not of the truth if they do not admit that they have some kind of sin in their life.

Is not the admittance that you will always be in some kind of sin...
deliberate sin?

Is is not a conscious choice for you to say that you will always be in sin...
when instead you can say you do not have to be in sin?

redleghunter · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Again, you prove nothing but in the fact that you can hit the "disagree button."
You need to actually have reasons to back up what you are saying is true and what I am saying is not true. So far, I have brought forth evidence in God's Word, logic, and real world examples to demolish the "Belief Alone in Jesus + Nothing else" type belief.

There it is again. No one is promoting that straw man in bold above. If you actually consider what others are writing you could not come to that conclusion.

That is why most don’t engage in the fabricated argument you present. Let alone the long lists of verses out of context using eclectic hermeneutics.

What you set up is a discussion or argument where short Bible verses are pitted against each other. That’s not exegesis.

The OP asked if our works contribute to meriting our salvation. I take it you do that Grace is a start but what we do after we are spiritually regenerated is on us and one day we could be saved and the next not and the next back to a child of wrath but the next day with proper repentance we are back again in the fold.

The Scriptures don’t support a daily tennis match of saved and unsaved and back again.

redleghunter · Sep 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. I am refuting your belief because James is condemning those who have respect of persons and drives home his point in the fact that their faith is dead without works. James is telling them this so as to get them to love their neighbor and not have respect of persons. If James believed they were dead spiritually speaking he would have never written that letter to begin with.

So James is hoping to compel those not producing fruit to do so or else?

When actually he is comparing a superficial belief even the demons have in God with what is genuine faith.

JohnC2 · Sep 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

There is some semantics going on here which makes it seem like there is a disagreement when maybe there is not...

Some including myself interpret Faith to mean obedience to God’s purposes. It has the same root as “Fiduciary” - which is acting to further someone else’s behalf even if it causes harm to you and your own interests. Acting and thinking are intertwined as one. It’s not well wishing or thinking happy thoughts while jamming up God’s purposes and blaspheming His holy name.

Other people interpret faith as what you think and works as what you do....

We are basically both saying the same thing - you have to be obedient to God’s purposes in real life... whether you separate doing from thinking or lump it together - it’s the same.

Within this context - for example dying for the Gospel of Christ crucified for our sins and risen from the dead to sit at the right hand of the father ends up costing you quite a bit personally in this life... And it you can’t really die for something you don’t believe in.... But that’s the one definitive stand we take to finality.. And not taking the stand here probably means that you don’t believe in God’s person and his promises in real life...

On the other hand - there are “Good works” which can be performed by anybody including non-believers and these don’t accomplish salvation.... And worse - may not actually further God’s purposes in any way... There is scriptural evidence that these sort of works when done in obedience to God may earn a believer a “better resurrection” as the writer of Hebrews calls it.... But it doesn’t earn a non-believer a Golden ticket into heaven. And done contrary to God’s will - may result in punishment for jamming up the works which God then has to sort out..... For example - We are not called to die over abortion, drug abuse,
child abuse, sorting out sin in society, or whatnot. We say our piece and do what we can do to advocate for righteousness - but ultimately when they won’t listen - we allow society to do what it does, we do what we can do, and brace for the consequences.... That’s not the hill we die on.....

Yarddog · Sep 11, 2018

Tree of Life said:
When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

One cannot be justified through anything other than faith in the works of Jesus Christ. After justification, the works of God's Spirit must be present within Christians.

Man's works mean nothing towards salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
There it is again. No one is promoting that straw man in bold above. If you actually consider what others are writing you could not come to that conclusion.

That is why most don’t engage in the fabricated argument you present. Let alone the long lists of verses out of context using eclectic hermeneutics.

What you set up is a discussion or argument where short Bible verses are pitted against each other. That’s not exegesis.

The OP asked if our works contribute to meriting our salvation. I take it you do that Grace is a start but what we do after we are spiritually regenerated is on us and one day we could be saved and the next not and the next back to a child of wrath but the next day with proper repentance we are back again in the fold.

The Scriptures don’t support a daily tennis match of saved and unsaved and back again.

Unfortunately, not everyone believes as you do.
Other folks who believe in OSAS have made the claim that we are saved by having a "Belief Alone on Jesus + Nothing." I have even talked with believers (one even face to face) who admitted that they could commit grievous sin (like mowing down a crowd of people with a submachine gun) and they would still be saved if they did so. Just look up George Sodini. His message sounds not all that much different than what you are saying to me.

Why don't you just tell me in as few words as possible how your belief is different? Is it "A Belief Alone in Jesus + Regeneration to Force a Person to Do Good"? However, if this is what you believe then how come you do not see believers around you being perfectly obedient slaves to God as a result of your belief? So it is flawed and it does not truly work as it claims. Nobody is truly being forced to do good or to be a slave to righteousness.

In fact, you prove that this is not so by saying that a believer cannot become saved, and then unsaved, and then saved again.

However, the Bible does support that you can be saved, then unsaved, and then saved again. By conceding that this is not so, then you are in admittance that a believer can sin and still be saved unless of course you believe that a believer never sins again in his life time. How is your belief really all that different than a "Belief Alone on Jesus + Nothing"? You believe we can sin and still be saved if you do not believe that a believer can become unsaved by committing grievous sin.

Anyways, to show you Scripture that teaches that we can be saved, unsaved, and then saved again:

#1. The Parable of the Prodigal Son.

When the prodigal son came home and repented, his father said his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" two times. His father also said two times that his son was "lost" and now he is "found." These words are speaking in spiritual terms. So the point here is that you cannot be alive again (saved again) unless you were once saved before and then lost it. Also, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is talking about repentance (Seeking the Lord's forgiveness). For the previous two parables is talking about repentance and salvation, as well (See Luke 15).

#2. James 5:19-20

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

So here we are told by James that if a brother sees another brother turn away from the truth, and they were to convert them (get them to repent or seek forgiveness to the Lord), they should realize that they have helped to convert a sinner from the error of his way and have saved a soul from death. This means they have brought another brother back the faith to the saving of their soul again.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
So James is hoping to compel those not producing fruit to do so or else?

The... "or else" is that their faith is dead, which should prompt them to get their hearts right with the Lord by confessing their sins to him. Again, James telling them that their faith is dead does not make sense in your belief because James would not have written to dead men that cannot respond back to him. James is writing to them so as to make a difference. James was not giving them a permanent death sentence. He does not say they are beyond hope and redemption, etc.

You said:
When actually he is comparing a superficial belief even the demons have in God with what is genuine faith.

It is more than that. James actually says we are saved by our works. In James 2:24 he says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul is saying in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved by God's grace and not by works alone. James is saying we are not saved by Belief Alone. So salvation is not just "Belief Alone" any more than it is by "Works Alone."

Bible Highlighter · Sep 11, 2018

JohnC2 said:
There is some semantics going on here which makes it seem like there is a disagreement when maybe there is not...

Some including myself interpret Faith to mean obedience to God’s purposes. It has the same root as “Fiduciary” - which is acting to further someone else’s behalf even if it causes harm to you and your own interests. Acting and thinking are intertwined as one. It’s not well wishing or thinking happy thoughts while jamming up God’s purposes and blaspheming His holy name.

Other people interpret faith as what you think and works as what you do....

We are basically both saying the same thing - you have to be obedient to God’s purposes in real life... whether you separate doing from thinking or lump it together - it’s the same.

Within this context - for example dying for the Gospel of Christ crucified for our sins and risen from the dead to sit at the right hand of the father ends up costing you quite a bit personally in this life... And it you can’t really die for something you don’t believe in.... But that’s the one definitive stand we take to finality.. And not taking the stand here probably means that you don’t believe in God’s person and his promises in real life...

On the other hand - there are “Good works” which can be performed by anybody including non-believers and these don’t accomplish salvation.... And worse - may not actually further God’s purposes in any way... There is scriptural evidence that these sort of works when done in obedience to God may earn a believer a “better resurrection” as the writer of Hebrews calls it.... But it doesn’t earn a non-believer a Golden ticket into heaven. And done contrary to God’s will - may result in punishment for jamming up the works which God then has to sort out..... For example - We are not called to die over abortion, drug abuse,
child abuse, sorting out sin in society, or whatnot. We say our piece and do what we can do to advocate for righteousness - but ultimately when they won’t listen - we allow society to do what it does, we do what we can do, and brace for the consequences.... That’s not the hill we die on.....

Well, said.

"Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

Faith Plus Works

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