Can We Discuss Spiritual Abuse?

daffers234 said:

I realized that I would try to be kindly honest and say, "I just don't know. I don't think we can know until we get there." I still believe this, but at the time I was far too afraid to tell the pastor.

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Found something

Ecclesiastes 3:21
“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

Hey there. Spiritual abuse is any kind of abuse of authority in the context of religion/church. The main thing is that they deceive you in some way and/or get you to do things you wouldn't do if you knew the truth, or through the fear of their authority. Being disagreeable, unfit to lead, or even mistaken in some of their beliefs do not necessarily make someone spiritually abusive.

Your dynamic with your pastor does seem a bit weird, though, and if even if his behavior didn't fall under the category of spiritual abuse, it seems like there are some concerning issues under the surface. If I were a counselor I would definitely be asking some probing questions to see what's really going on. I'm not a counselor though...see a biblical counselor...one not connected to your church...it helped me when I experienced spiritual abuse and I think it would help you, too.

daffers234 said:

Heh ... well, I was reluctant to post it right off. But I will tell you now. I do ask that you do not judge me too harshly, and I will try my best to be honest without being a jerk.

The pastor said, hands-down, that personal pets go to heaven. He was referring specifically to dogs. I am not a dog person and ... well, he insisted that God would change me and make it alright in heaven. He refused to accept any other ideas on it. (The translation seemed to be: it's sort of OK to be a non-dog-person on earth, but God will change your personality in heaven; you are thus flawed.)

My reasoning is a bit different than his. I know many people would love to see their pets in heaven, and I am not disparaging their opinions and desires, but I am not sure that the Bible allows for it, and that is the best answer I can give. The pastor demanded to know what my answer would be if someone came and asked me about it. At the time, I realized that I would try to be kindly honest and say, "I just don't know. I don't think we can know until we get there." I still believe this, but at the time I was far too afraid to tell the pastor.

I just don't think heaven is a repository for my selfish earthly desires - I am speaking for myself only, and don't want to push this on others. I want to be with God, in perfect harmony, and a dog would only distract me from that perfect oneness; thus heaven would be imperfect. Again, I realize not everyone feels that way. But, too, as I said, the pastor seemed to think I was the flawed one, and God would change ME.

There were many other issues with the situation, but that is the most specific one where he demanded an answer, at least that I remember.

Thanks for your help!

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All dogs don't go to heaven. Consider what the Psalmist says;

Psa 104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Psa 104:27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
Psa 104:28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

They are recreated. They are not in heaven. God uses their recycled spirits to replenish the Earth. However, in the glory of the Lord when we have a new heaven and a new earth, there will be animals that will not, nor will there be wild animals. They will all be tame since they will no longer fear mankind.

As far as spiritual abuse, you sound like were with a someone who wants the preeminence and has low tolerance for disagreement. Followers of Christ do not control others nor insist their way is right. However, good luck in finding a follower who also has leadership skills that does not try to control others.

daffers234 said:

I left for good after I was grabbed and pushed by the pastor

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That so-called pastor is not a man of God. If I saw him do that to you I surely would have put him in his place!

If someone grabs and pushes you, call the police and press charges for assault. Don't feel guilty about reporting people to the police for improper conduct.

daffers234 said:

I have some questions regarding spiritual abuse, and am not sure where to post them, so here goes.

I was abused mentally/emotionally at my last church. I believe too that I was under a form of spiritual abuse. The church was a small house church. I left for good after I was grabbed and pushed by the pastor, but I was already damaged. I can give more details as necessary, but that may derail the topic here. I'm mostly trying to figure out what spiritual abuse is, so I can clarify my experiences and get help as needed.

I tried to look up information on spiritual abuse but found very little. What I found was not very helpful and sometimes discussed severe cult situations. Has anyone else either experienced spiritual abuse or understands what I mean and can help clarify it a bit? I hate to go around asking for help for it if I really need help for another part of me.

Click to expand...

Spiritual abuse would be defined as a spirit to spirit attack. So in that sense only evil spirits can abuse you spiritually.

Bodies can commit physical abuse. Emotional abuse can be committed by people or spirits, and that is where they converge, the body and spirit, thru emotions perhaps.

The emotional abuse might be of more interest to you?

I just want to comment on the OP's experience. Going on what you have shared it sounds like someone who maybe is poorly equipped for Pastoral work, and handling disagreement but not necessarily a case of spiritual abuse. Generally when taking issue with the behaviour of a Pastor or another church member the principle to follow would seem to be set out in Matthew 18:15-17. If that seems not to be possible for whatever reason as when some time has elapsed, or the person has moved away, and you continue to experience ill effects, then either by sharing with a counsellor or mature Christian asking them to pray for you etc, that you can move on in your life.

May God Bless You.

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daffers234 said:

I have some questions regarding spiritual abuse, and am not sure where to post them, so here goes.

I was abused mentally/emotionally at my last church. I believe too that I was under a form of spiritual abuse. The church was a small house church. I left for good after I was grabbed and pushed by the pastor, but I was already damaged. I can give more details as necessary, but that may derail the topic here. I'm mostly trying to figure out what spiritual abuse is, so I can clarify my experiences and get help as needed.

I tried to look up information on spiritual abuse but found very little. What I found was not very helpful and sometimes discussed severe cult situations. Has anyone else either experienced spiritual abuse or understands what I mean and can help clarify it a bit? I hate to go around asking for help for it if I really need help for another part of me.

Click to expand...

I believe spiritual abuse happens more often than people would prefer to think. In my situation, my wife raised an issue happening in our church which was disturbing to her with an elder. The elder discussed the matter with the other elders and came back to her saying that the matter was acceptable to the eldership and gave her an instruction not to speak to anyone else about it. When my wife questioned his authority to issue such an instruction, he proceeded to shout at her telling her that his elder position gives him that authority.

To cut a very long story short, apologies for the shouting were issued but the instruction was not withdrawn. The instruction, which we now have in writing from the elders, was based on their assumption that my wife was being judgemental of someone and that she was likely to inflict harm and not in need of protection, this on the basis of a short initial phone call to an elder. Despite being told in writing by us that this assumption was wrong and that she had raised the issue because it was affecting her own walk with God and she was not out to personally harm anyone but this was a personal matter to her, the elders have held firm on their position.

At no point in this have the elders ever referred to Scripture to explain their position despite being repeatedly asked by us to do so. We still occasionally attend this church but the elders seem now to treat us as some sort of pariah.

People will say that it is important to forgive people for wrongs perpetrated against us and with that I absolutely agree. However, as another person posted before, healing takes much longer. When a person is wounded emotionally and spiritually, it goes to the very core of that person. In the case of church leaders, such wounds are inflicted by those who have the obligation to care for the flock. But some will use their position to care more for their position than the person.

As a result of our experience, we have looked to Scripture to guide us as to correct elder authority. What we see is not how we have been treated. In 1 Peter 5, elders are exhorted to lead by example. In our case the example we have been shown is don't refer to Scripture when facing an issue, do as the elders say, don't question their authority but submit to them regardless of their false assumptions and accusations. I don't regard any of that as examples we can follow.

I agree with a couple of previous posters that the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen is excellent. I found this quote from it particularly helpful:

“Spiritual abuse can occur when a leader uses his or her spiritual position to control or dominate another person. It often involves overriding the feelings and opinions of another, without regard to what will result in the other person’s state of living, emotions or well-being. In this application, power is used to bolster the position or needs of a leader over and above one who comes to them in need.”

We both feel that this is what happened to my wife because at no time have elders shown any regard to either my wife's or my spiritual or emotional well-being.

The positive side to all of this is that God has brought people into our lives, some of whom have had similar experiences and understand. They have been a huge blessing to us and encourage and bless us in ways we can only attribute to God. Their eagerness to go to Scripture and to teach and learn from His Word in all circumstances is exactly what we needed and continue to need in our daily lives. I don't think this would have happened, or would have happened as quickly, had we not made a stand against poor eldership. Our dependence is ultimately on God alone and I don't believe He would want us under any spiritual authority which refuses to use His Word to lead us when we raise issues.

Phil G said:

I believe spiritual abuse happens more often than people would prefer to think. In my situation, my wife raised an issue happening in our church which was disturbing to her with an elder. The elder discussed the matter with the other elders and came back to her saying that the matter was acceptable to the eldership and gave her an instruction not to speak to anyone else about it. When my wife questioned his authority to issue such an instruction, he proceeded to shout at her telling her that his elder position gives him that authority.

To cut a very long story short, apologies for the shouting were issued but the instruction was not withdrawn. The instruction, which we now have in writing from the elders, was based on their assumption that my wife was being judgemental of someone and that she was likely to inflict harm and not in need of protection, this on the basis of a short initial phone call to an elder. Despite being told in writing by us that this assumption was wrong and that she had raised the issue because it was affecting her own walk with God and she was not out to personally harm anyone but this was a personal matter to her, the elders have held firm on their position.

At no point in this have the elders ever referred to Scripture to explain their position despite being repeatedly asked by us to do so. We still occasionally attend this church but the elders seem now to treat us as some sort of pariah.

People will say that it is important to forgive people for wrongs perpetrated against us and with that I absolutely agree. However, as another person posted before, healing takes much longer. When a person is wounded emotionally and spiritually, it goes to the very core of that person. In the case of church leaders, such wounds are inflicted by those who have the obligation to care for the flock. But some will use their position to care more for their position than the person.

As a result of our experience, we have looked to Scripture to guide us as to correct elder authority. What we see is not how we have been treated. In 1 Peter 5, elders are exhorted to lead by example. In our case the example we have been shown is don't refer to Scripture when facing an issue, do as the elders say, don't question their authority but submit to them regardless of their false assumptions and accusations. I don't regard any of that as examples we can follow.

I agree with a couple of previous posters that the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen is excellent. I found this quote from it particularly helpful:

“Spiritual abuse can occur when a leader uses his or her spiritual position to control or dominate another person. It often involves overriding the feelings and opinions of another, without regard to what will result in the other person’s state of living, emotions or well-being. In this application, power is used to bolster the position or needs of a leader over and above one who comes to them in need.”

We both feel that this is what happened to my wife because at no time have elders shown any regard to either my wife's or my spiritual or emotional well-being.

The positive side to all of this is that God has brought people into our lives, some of whom have had similar experiences and understand. They have been a huge blessing to us and encourage and bless us in ways we can only attribute to God. Their eagerness to go to Scripture and to teach and learn from His Word in all circumstances is exactly what we needed and continue to need in our daily lives. I don't think this would have happened, or would have happened as quickly, had we not made a stand against poor eldership. Our dependence is ultimately on God alone and I don't believe He would want us under any spiritual authority which refuses to use His Word to lead us when we raise issues.

Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor and run from that Church it is not worth the problems. If enough people leave, it will have to change or die.

He should not have been the one to discuss it with you. That role belongs to the Pastor in private with witnesses from both parties involved. The Pastor should have asked all involve to meet with him first alone. What they did is not the Elder's role.

Based on the following scriptures, I do not believe he is qualified to be an Elder, and likely most of the Elders don't qualify.

Titus' Work in Crete
Titus 1:5-9 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 I left you in Crete, so that you could put in order the things that still needed doing and appoint church elders in every town. Remember my instructions: 6 an elder must be without fault; he must have only one wife,[a] and his children must be believers and not have the reputation of being wild or disobedient. 7 For since a church leader is in charge of God's work, he should be without fault. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered, or a drunkard or violent or greedy for money. 8 He must be hospitable and love what is good. He must be self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the message which can be trusted and which agrees with the doctrine. In this way he will be able to encourage others with the true teaching and also to show the error of those who are opposed to it.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 Good News Translation (GNT)
Leaders in the Church
3 This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work. 2 A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife,[a] be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach; 3 he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money; 4 he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect. 5 For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God? 6 He must be mature in the faith, so that he will not swell up with pride and be condemned, as the Devil was. 7 He should be a man who is respected by the people outside the church, so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the Devil's trap.

1 Peter 5:1-4 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Flock of God
5 I, who am an elder myself, appeal to the church elders among you. I am a witness of Christ's sufferings, and I will share in the glory that will be revealed. I appeal to you 2 to be shepherds of the flock that God gave you and to take care of it willingly, as God wants you to, and not unwillingly. Do your work, not for mere pay, but from a real desire to serve. 3 Do not try to rule over those who have been put in your care, but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the glorious crown which will never lose its brightness.


6 qif anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,4 and his children are believers5 and not open to the charge of rdebauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer,6 sas God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not tbe arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent uor greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, vand disciplined. 9 He must whold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in xsound7 doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

"The Bible teaches that elders are to teach the Word, set a godly example for the flock, and oversee the affairs of the church (1 Tim. 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:3; 1 Tim. 5:17). Scripture therefore calls all Christians to “submit” to the leaders of our churches (Heb. 13:17). At the same time, Scripture teaches that the congregation as a whole has final authority in matters of discipline (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:4-5) and doctrine (Gal. 1)."https://www.9marks.org/article/how-congregations-with-authority-submit-to-elders/

Titus 2:15 (NET)
2:15 So communicate these things with the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries full authority. Don’t let anyone look down on you.

"Here Stott gives us the first principle of the nature of elder authority: it is limited. That is, elders don’t have full and absolute authority over anyone in the church, no matter what, and no matter what their intentions are."https://www.whatsbestnext.com/2014/10/the-true-nature-of-elder-authority-in-the-church/

His best proof text is,
Acts 16:4
Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Elders,-In-The-Church

basic article on elders, https://www.gty.org/library/articles/GCCDD01/biblical-eldership

"Paul begins his address to the elders of Ephesus, by reminding them of his manner of life, during the course of his ministry among them. "Ye know from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations which befel me, by the lying in wait of the Jews." Humility was a virtue, by which the Apostle was eminently distinguished. Elevated to the highest rank in the Christian Church, more learned than any of his brethren, and possessed of great natural talents, and of miraculous p6wers, he was not elated with an idea of his superiority, nor haughty and overbearing in his intercourse with others."https://biblehub.com/library/dick/l..._apostles/lecture_xxiv_the_last_interview.htm

Romans 16:17-18 ESV

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

James 1:26 ESV
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Proverbs 25:28 ESV
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

Proverbs 29:11 ESV
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Proverbs 16:32 ESV
Whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

James 1:19-20 ESV
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Proverbs 19:11 ESV
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Titus 1:8 ESV
But hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.


" The Controlling PersonalityGenerally, a controlling person is self-absorbed, insensitive towards others, pushes to get his own way and manipulates circumstances and people to achieve his own agenda. When feeling threatened, he may resort to unethical behavior to destroy his opponent. He does not understand freedom or grace. Controlling others involves breaking them down, destroying

...

A controlling person often likes a position of authority (supervisor, politician, professor, doctor, pastor). Being in control of others makes him feel important, powerful and secure (authority is legitimate, but arrogant people abuse their authority and hurt the innocent). The problem with arrogant people is that they rarely see their own faults, but only the faults of others. Their hubris prevents them from being open to genuine discussion about change. A humble person does not abuse their position of authority, but sees themselves as a servant-leader, open to discussion, correction, and willing to makes sacrifices for others (Phil. 2:3-4)."https://thinkingonscripture.com/2013/12/28/characteristics-of-a-controlling-personality/

These are the main texts I can remember applies.

Again, just run from that place. Find one that is more peaceful.

Personally, I would dump the Pentecostal, Word of Faith type doctrine and Churches like a Red Hot Rock.

Daniel Marsh said:

Do yourself a favor and run from that Church it is not worth the problems. If enough people leave, it will have to change or die.

He should not have been the one to discuss it with you. That role belongs to the Pastor in private with witnesses from both parties involved. The Pastor should have asked all involve to meet with him first alone. What they did is not the Elder's role.

Based on the following scriptures, I do not believe he is qualified to be an Elder, and likely most of the Elders don't qualify.

Titus' Work in Crete
Titus 1:5-9 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 I left you in Crete, so that you could put in order the things that still needed doing and appoint church elders in every town. Remember my instructions: 6 an elder must be without fault; he must have only one wife,[a] and his children must be believers and not have the reputation of being wild or disobedient. 7 For since a church leader is in charge of God's work, he should be without fault. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered, or a drunkard or violent or greedy for money. 8 He must be hospitable and love what is good. He must be self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the message which can be trusted and which agrees with the doctrine. In this way he will be able to encourage others with the true teaching and also to show the error of those who are opposed to it.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 Good News Translation (GNT)
Leaders in the Church
3 This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work. 2 A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife,[a] be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach; 3 he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money; 4 he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect. 5 For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God? 6 He must be mature in the faith, so that he will not swell up with pride and be condemned, as the Devil was. 7 He should be a man who is respected by the people outside the church, so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the Devil's trap.

1 Peter 5:1-4 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Flock of God
5 I, who am an elder myself, appeal to the church elders among you. I am a witness of Christ's sufferings, and I will share in the glory that will be revealed. I appeal to you 2 to be shepherds of the flock that God gave you and to take care of it willingly, as God wants you to, and not unwillingly. Do your work, not for mere pay, but from a real desire to serve. 3 Do not try to rule over those who have been put in your care, but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the glorious crown which will never lose its brightness.


6 qif anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,4 and his children are believers5 and not open to the charge of rdebauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer,6 sas God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not tbe arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent uor greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, vand disciplined. 9 He must whold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in xsound7 doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

"The Bible teaches that elders are to teach the Word, set a godly example for the flock, and oversee the affairs of the church (1 Tim. 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:3; 1 Tim. 5:17). Scripture therefore calls all Christians to “submit” to the leaders of our churches (Heb. 13:17). At the same time, Scripture teaches that the congregation as a whole has final authority in matters of discipline (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:4-5) and doctrine (Gal. 1)."https://www.9marks.org/article/how-congregations-with-authority-submit-to-elders/

Titus 2:15 (NET)
2:15 So communicate these things with the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries full authority. Don’t let anyone look down on you.

"Here Stott gives us the first principle of the nature of elder authority: it is limited. That is, elders don’t have full and absolute authority over anyone in the church, no matter what, and no matter what their intentions are."https://www.whatsbestnext.com/2014/10/the-true-nature-of-elder-authority-in-the-church/

His best proof text is,
Acts 16:4
Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Elders,-In-The-Church

basic article on elders, https://www.gty.org/library/articles/GCCDD01/biblical-eldership

"Paul begins his address to the elders of Ephesus, by reminding them of his manner of life, during the course of his ministry among them. "Ye know from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations which befel me, by the lying in wait of the Jews." Humility was a virtue, by which the Apostle was eminently distinguished. Elevated to the highest rank in the Christian Church, more learned than any of his brethren, and possessed of great natural talents, and of miraculous p6wers, he was not elated with an idea of his superiority, nor haughty and overbearing in his intercourse with others."https://biblehub.com/library/dick/l..._apostles/lecture_xxiv_the_last_interview.htm

Romans 16:17-18 ESV

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

James 1:26 ESV
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Proverbs 25:28 ESV
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

Proverbs 29:11 ESV
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Proverbs 16:32 ESV
Whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

James 1:19-20 ESV
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Proverbs 19:11 ESV
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Titus 1:8 ESV
But hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.


" The Controlling PersonalityGenerally, a controlling person is self-absorbed, insensitive towards others, pushes to get his own way and manipulates circumstances and people to achieve his own agenda. When feeling threatened, he may resort to unethical behavior to destroy his opponent. He does not understand freedom or grace. Controlling others involves breaking them down, destroying

...

A controlling person often likes a position of authority (supervisor, politician, professor, doctor, pastor). Being in control of others makes him feel important, powerful and secure (authority is legitimate, but arrogant people abuse their authority and hurt the innocent). The problem with arrogant people is that they rarely see their own faults, but only the faults of others. Their hubris prevents them from being open to genuine discussion about change. A humble person does not abuse their position of authority, but sees themselves as a servant-leader, open to discussion, correction, and willing to makes sacrifices for others (Phil. 2:3-4)."https://thinkingonscripture.com/2013/12/28/characteristics-of-a-controlling-personality/

These are the main texts I can remember applies.

Again, just run from that place. Find one that is more peaceful.

Personally, I would dump the Pentecostal, Word of Faith type doctrine and Churches like a Red Hot Rock.

Click to expand...

Thank you, yes it certainly looks like that leaving this church completely will be the outcome. The church has no 'pastor' as such but has what is called a 'collegiality' of elders where all elders have supposedly shared and equal authority. There is one full time elder who is paid by the church and he is the one who shouted and gave the instruction. It seems the other 3 circled the wagons and backed him up.

Our hope is that God will change something fundamental in the elders' thinking. We have been in this church for over 20 years and we have only recently come across this attitude primarily because we can now see the dangerous road it is going and have started to flag it. But as you say, it may not be worth the problems it will cause us.

Thank you for your care and your quoted Scriptures are spot on and very relevant to me.

devin553344 said:

Spiritual abuse would be defined as a spirit to spirit attack. So in that sense only evil spirits can abuse you spiritually.

Bodies can commit physical abuse. Emotional abuse can be committed by people or spirits, and that is where they converge, the body and spirit, thru emotions perhaps.

The emotional abuse might be of more interest to you?

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No expert that I know of, agrees with your interpretation friend.

"
What Is Spiritual Abuse?
Spiritual abuse, as we are addressing it here, could be defined as the injury of a person's spiritual health. It is the use of religion and spiritual concepts to gain or maintain undue power over another. The cause could arise from a doctrinal error that puts a person into a performance-based relationship with God. Or, it could be the result of a person trying to meet their legitimate need by an illegitimate means that weakens their own or another person's spiritual health."https://www.watchman.org/articles/cults-alternative-religions/spiritual_abuse-in-the-bible/

"Question: "What is spiritual abuse?"

Answer: To “abuse” is to use something or someone to bad effect or for a bad purpose, especially regularly or repeatedly. Spiritual abuse happens when a spiritual authority, such as a cult leader or abusive pastor, seeks to control individuals and ensure obedience. Spiritual abuse is closely associated with spiritual manipulation and is not God’s plan for promoting spiritual growth."https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-abuse.html

"Spiritual abuse is abuse of another human being’s spirit—the deeper essential Me-ness of me—sometimes referred to as the soul or the authentic Self. "https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...er-terrain/201604/therapy-and-spiritual-abuse

Phil G said:

Thank you, yes it certainly looks like that leaving this church completely will be the outcome. The church has no 'pastor' as such but has what is called a 'collegiality' of elders where all elders have supposedly shared and equal authority. There is one full time elder who is paid by the church and he is the one who shouted and gave the instruction. It seems the other 3 circled the wagons and backed him up.

Our hope is that God will change something fundamental in the elders' thinking. We have been in this church for over 20 years and we have only recently come across this attitude primarily because we can now see the dangerous road it is going and have started to flag it. But as you say, it may not be worth the problems it will cause us.

Thank you for your care and your quoted Scriptures are spot on and very relevant to me.

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Have you called or wrote the Denomination Leaders concerning this church? Maybe, they need to step in to correct the problems. If it is completely independent, speak to your friends there about doing a silent walk out. Another-wards, in the middle of a service if many or even one person gets up and leaves. It may make people ask why.

When someone leaves this church does it engage in telling lies about the person to cause shunning?

daffers234 said:

Heh ... well, I was reluctant to post it right off. But I will tell you now. I do ask that you do not judge me too harshly, and I will try my best to be honest without being a jerk.

The pastor said, hands-down, that personal pets go to heaven. He was referring specifically to dogs. I am not a dog person and ... well, he insisted that God would change me and make it alright in heaven. He refused to accept any other ideas on it. (The translation seemed to be: it's sort of OK to be a non-dog-person on earth, but God will change your personality in heaven; you are thus flawed.)

My reasoning is a bit different than his. I know many people would love to see their pets in heaven, and I am not disparaging their opinions and desires, but I am not sure that the Bible allows for it, and that is the best answer I can give. The pastor demanded to know what my answer would be if someone came and asked me about it. At the time, I realized that I would try to be kindly honest and say, "I just don't know. I don't think we can know until we get there." I still believe this, but at the time I was far too afraid to tell the pastor.

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I'm not going to say that he didn't spiritually abuse you because I don't know the whole situation, but from what you've told me, I'm not seeing anything clear-cut to say that he did spiritually abuse you.

For the purpose of exploring what spiritual abuse is, let me tell you about the spiritual abuse I went through. I trusted the wrong ministry to help me overcome a sin in my life that I had quite a bit of shame over. I have an analytical mind that doesn't subscribe to their hardline Calvinist position. There was no room for my questions. You agree to do what they tell you to do, no questioning how they approach it, that's it. And they 1) questioned my salvation and 2) told me I couldn't quit. The entire point of going to them was so that I could quit. So, rigid, bad theology, a rigid approach without making an effort to understand the person coming to them for help, punishment and shame for not fitting into their small-minded model. That's spiritual abuse. Tools of Satan, they are.

Yes, your pastor was spiritually abusing you. He was a bully. Never assume that because someone is a pastor, or says he or she is a Christian, that they aren't just wolves in sheep's clothing. Messiah warned us that they would come in amongst the flock. Good for you that you got out!

daffers234 said:

Thanks ... what you've said makes a lot of sense.

The pastor told me all the time how he was proud of me, but his actions said otherwise. The abuse was very subtle and came on slowly and thus I didn't realize it until he physically pushed me. (He would have said he was "leading" me to my car, but it was a grab/shove.) Another example is that I thought, if he really was proud of me, he'd be fine with me leaving to grow elsewhere, just sad to lose me. But he jumped down my throat and told me I wouldn't fit anywhere, and so on. That is more mental than spiritual abuse, but you can see what was going on.

If anyone else has any thoughts, please let me know. I would like a better-rounded view of this as I continue to process what happened.

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The fact that he grabbed/shoved you is absolutely outrageous. One thing we know, he is not just a bully, he has no respect for others' boundaries. Now, I wonder about your own sense of boundaries. It seems to me that once he did that you should have never, ever gone back to that Church. Ever. A good slap in the face might have been a good way to say goodbye, though.

At the very least it would have been very appropriate to say "GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME!"

There is a Christian book called Boundaries. You might want to get it.

Daniel Marsh said:

As a Jewish person, Jesus did not like dogs.

Psalm 22:16Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.

Psalm 22:20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.

Matthew 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Luke 16:21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh.

2 Peter 2:22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

To my knowledge dogs were wild back in Jesus day and not pets, thus a low view of them.

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Caleb means dog. Caleb was one of 2 of the 12 Israelites who was willing to stand up to the giants in the Promised Land, and who got to see it.

Daniel Marsh said:

Have you called or wrote the Denomination Leaders concerning this church? Maybe, they need to step in to correct the problems. If it is completely independent, speak to your friends there about doing a silent walk out. Another-wards, in the middle of a service if many or even one person gets up and leaves. It may make people ask why.

When someone leaves this church does it engage in telling lies about the person to cause shunning?

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Sadly this is an independent church which is why they seem to be able to get away with this type of abuse. A walk out would not be really feasible and while there is no shunning as such, anyone who is seen to have issues are more or less left to their own devices. 'Let's get on with the party' seems to be the order of the day!

I appreciate your concern and help. We keep praying and let God lead us step by step in what we do next. We are moving towards writing to the elders one more time (there is plenty of written correspondence from them which we can use as evidence showing their un-biblical approach) and we are already starting to go more public with what has happened. It does take time to come to that place where we are more ready to share what we are going through.

Blessing to you.

daffers234 said:

Thanks ... what you've said makes a lot of sense.

The pastor told me all the time how he was proud of me, but his actions said otherwise. The abuse was very subtle and came on slowly and thus I didn't realize it until he physically pushed me. (He would have said he was "leading" me to my car, but it was a grab/shove.) Another example is that I thought, if he really was proud of me, he'd be fine with me leaving to grow elsewhere, just sad to lose me. But he jumped down my throat and told me I wouldn't fit anywhere, and so on. That is more mental than spiritual abuse, but you can see what was going on.

If anyone else has any thoughts, please let me know. I would like a better-rounded view of this as I continue to process what happened.

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Spiritual abuse, bullying and domestic violence all originate from the same spirit. It is a controlling spirit that starts off in a very subtle manner, and escalates if the person resists. It often escalates to physical violence, and can result in murder in the worst case scenario.

This spiritual abuse is not your fault in any way. It is not a lack of obedience or spirituality on your part. The abuser will often be very charming and believable to everyone except the target of his abuse, and others will be deflected away from him to the abused. It is very difficult to prove abuse because abusers can be very cunning.

The effects of spiritual abuse is a bondage that you can be loosed from through prayer and ministry by a good professional Christian counsellor.

Daniel Marsh said:

No expert that I know of, agrees with your interpretation friend.

"
What Is Spiritual Abuse?
Spiritual abuse, as we are addressing it here, could be defined as the injury of a person's spiritual health. It is the use of religion and spiritual concepts to gain or maintain undue power over another. The cause could arise from a doctrinal error that puts a person into a performance-based relationship with God. Or, it could be the result of a person trying to meet their legitimate need by an illegitimate means that weakens their own or another person's spiritual health."https://www.watchman.org/articles/cults-alternative-religions/spiritual_abuse-in-the-bible/

"Question: "What is spiritual abuse?"

Answer: To “abuse” is to use something or someone to bad effect or for a bad purpose, especially regularly or repeatedly. Spiritual abuse happens when a spiritual authority, such as a cult leader or abusive pastor, seeks to control individuals and ensure obedience. Spiritual abuse is closely associated with spiritual manipulation and is not God’s plan for promoting spiritual growth."https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-abuse.html

"Spiritual abuse is abuse of another human being’s spirit—the deeper essential Me-ness of me—sometimes referred to as the soul or the authentic Self. "https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...er-terrain/201604/therapy-and-spiritual-abuse

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I guess I don't believe in true spiritual abuse. I think more along the lines of [2 Corinthians 12:10]