How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

Dave L · Sep 11, 2018

HTacianas said:
A Bishop, as successor to the Apostles, can forgive sins under the authority of Jesus Christ. As he said to them:

Jhn 20:23

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

A Bishop can hand that authority down to a priest, though for the most part it is taught that the priest merely stands as witness to the confession of sins to God, and that it is God Who forgives.

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them [the disciples], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:22–23)

How do we as Christians remit people's sins? By preaching and witnessing. That's how.

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 11, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Sorry that isn't the power Jesus breathed on the Apostles and then sent them into the world to do.

GingerBeer said:
The practise is derived from Jesus' commission given to the apostles.

The verse to which you refer doesn't say "Apostles." It says "disciples." It would seem to be characteristic of your priests to take what belongs to the many and restrict it to the few.

Alithis · Sep 11, 2018

TuxAme said:
Just like the Old Covenant, God desires that we go to His priests both for sacrifice (the Eucharist) and reconciliation. "In Persona Christi", or in the person of Christ, a priest is able to absolve someone of their sins (or retain them) just as a Levitical priest would- only much more perfectly, as the sacrifice which brought about this forgiveness is God Himself.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.-

Us .. who believe on him.. so dont know what priests your talking about .. must be usurpers

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

There seems to be a problem if we thi

nonaeroterraqueous said:
The verse to which you refer doesn't say "Apostles." It says "disciples." It would seem to be characteristic of your priests to take what belongs to the many and restrict it to the few.

Well, He made them Apostles in that passage. Apostle means sent. Sent by Christ to be specific to our meaning.

As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 11, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Well, He made them Apostles in that passage.

In Luke 10 he sent out seventy disciples. That would mean he had a lot more than twelve apostles by the time of his crucifixion. It makes one wonder why they thought they had to elect Matthias as one of the twelve, if they were already over seventy by that time (Acts 1).

"Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven."

Clearly, there were still only eleven by that time. That was after the moment you claim Jesus made a whole host of new Apostles.

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

JIMINZ said:
Then according to your professed belief above, all of those in Samaria became Bishops, because the received the Holy Spirit by the a lying on of hands?

The laying on of hands does what the one confering the holy Spirit intends. Paul mentions Timothy's being made Paul's successor.

Timothy 2

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, for the sake of the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

2 To Timothy, my beloved child:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

3 I am grateful to God—whom I worship with a clear conscience, as my ancestors did—when I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, lives in you. 6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

Surely not everyone who receives the Holy Spirit is given the same gifts or same purposes for them.

Timothy 2

20 In a large house there are utensils not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for special use, some for ordinary. 21 All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

eleos1954 · Sep 11, 2018

David Cabrera said:
It's a little confusing to me to understand the process. Can someone explain this?

John 3:31

The One (Jesus) who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One (Jesus) who comes from heaven is above all.

Hebrews 7:26

For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; (Jesus is our High Priest)

Hebrews 4:14

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Mark 2:7

"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Mark 2:10

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
In Luke 10 he sent out seventy disciples. That would mean he had a lot more than twelve apostles by the time of his crucifixion. It makes one wonder why they thought they had to elect Matthias as one of the twelve, if they were already over seventy by that time (Acts 1).

"Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven."

Clearly, there were still only eleven by that time. That was after the moment you claim Jesus made a whole host of new Apostles.

Seems like you are willing to deny that Jesus called 12 Apostles for a mission exclusive to them.

Revelation 21

14 And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.
Not from the way you stated it, that is why I asked, you weren't clear as to how, you have assumed we understand what your saying.

Fill in the blanks, it will then make more sense...... I hope.

I did assume that you understood that not everyone receives the same gifts and that the Apostles chose successors and layed hands on them to confer the Grace to fill the office.

Not David · Sep 11, 2018

Is the "binding and loosing on Earth" only referring to the ability to forgive sins?

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Is the "binding and loosing on Earth" only referring to the ability to forgive sins?

It includes excommunication as well.

1 Cor.

3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:20
among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have turned over to Satan, so that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hazelelponi · Sep 11, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Seems like you are willing to deny that Jesus called 12 Apostles for a mission exclusive to them.

Revelation 21

14 And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I'm very very very sick right now.(apparently cold and flu season is already here). So I'm not posting for a while after this as I'm sure others are far better at posting atm than I am.

But the apostles were instructed to teach all they were taught.. So no, there were no commands not to teach this or that thing, or instruction that this or that thing is only for certain people..

We are all the Temple of the Living God, each individual person has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are all called to be disciples. We are all called to forgive even as we were forgiven. We are all called to preach/teach the Gospel to the lost.

We may each have strengths given us by the Holy Spirit, but there is nothing that absolves any child of God from any of the above, not even the least in the congregation, if indeed they are a child of God.

I agree there are those who are called as elders ect., but there is no succession, our individual callings come from the Holy Spirit, which each of us (who belong to Christ) have and not from certain people.

Eloy Craft · Sep 11, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
I'm very very very sick right now.(apparently cold and flu season is already here). So I'm not posting for a while after this as I'm sure others are far better at posting atm than I am.

But the apostles were instructed to teach all they were taught.. So no, there were no commands not to teach this or that thing, or instruction that this or that thing is only for certain people..

We are all the Temple of the Living God, each individual person has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are all called to be disciples. We are all called to forgive even as we were forgiven. We are all called to preach/teach the Gospel to the lost.

We may each have strengths given us by the Holy Spirit, but there is nothing that absolves any child of God from any of the above, not even the least in the congregation, if indeed they are a child of God.

I agree there are those who are called as elders ect., but there is no succession, our individual callings come from the Holy Spirit, which each of us (who belong to Christ) have and not from certain people.

Thank you for your replies Hazelponi. I hope you feel better soon and may God bless you.

GingerBeer · Sep 11, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
The verse to which you refer doesn't say "Apostles." It says "disciples." It would seem to be characteristic of your priests to take what belongs to the many and restrict it to the few.

I have no priests, and the passage is about 11 of the 12 being gathered together. It is about the apostles that Jesus, the Lord, chose.

John 20:19 On the evening of that day, the ﬁrst day after the Sabbath, the doors were locked where the disciples were, because of their fear of the Jews. But Jesus came, and stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be with you!” 20 Then he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples, seeing the Lord, were full of joy. 21 Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 After saying this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 Those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” 24 Thomas, the Twin, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he replied, “Until I have seen in his hands the print of the nails, and put my ﬁnger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 Eight days later, the disciples were again inside the house and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your ﬁnger here, and see my hands; stretch out your hand, and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe!” 28 Thomas said, “You are my Lord and my God.” 29 Jesus replied, “You believe because you see me, don’t you? Happy are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

Halbhh · Sep 11, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
The power to forgive sins was given to the Apostles by the resurrected Christ. It's not representative it's real power to forgive just as if the ordained person were Jesus Himself.. Jesus said "As the Father sent me, so I send you. Whatever Jesus said or did it was as if the Father was saying it or doing it. Same goes for the Apostles and those they lay hands on when it comes to forgiving sins on earth. The transmission of the Holy Spirit is the laying on of hands. The Bishops today were ordained by a man who was touched by the hand of a Bishop who was touch ed by a previous Bishop going all the way to a Bishop who was touched by the hands of an Apostle who received the Holy Spirit from the breath of Our Lord Himself . That's the transmission of the Holy Spirit that gives the power to forgive sins.

John 20, 19-23
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Acts 8:17
Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:19
saying, “Give me also this power so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 19:6
When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied—

And...the Holy Spirit comes upon all who truly believe...

All are to become disciples. Not just the pastor/priest/bishop, but each and every one of us, you and me also.

JoeP222w · Sep 11, 2018

David Cabrera said:
It's a little confusing to me to understand the process. Can someone explain this?

They can't. That is a false doctrine. Sinful man cannot forgive sinful man.

Forgiveness is found only in Jesus Christ.

Halbhh · Sep 11, 2018

HTacianas said:
A Bishop, as successor to the Apostles, can forgive sins under the authority of Jesus Christ. As he said to them:

Jhn 20:23

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

A Bishop can hand that authority down to a priest, though for the most part it is taught that the priest merely stands as witness to the confession of sins to God, and that it is God Who forgives.

Francis gave a useful message on this in 2017 --

“In the first reading, the Spirit makes of the disciples a new people; in the Gospel, he creates in the disciples a new heart.”

The first is a new people. “On the day of Pentecost, the Spirit came down from heaven, in the form of ‘divided tongues, as of fire... [that] rested on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages’ (Acts 2:3-4).”

“This is how the word of God describes the working of the Spirit: first he rests on each and then brings all of them together in fellowship. To each he gives a gift, and then gathers them all into unity,” the Pope said.

The second thing the Holy Spirit renews is the heart. The first gift of Jesus after his resurrection is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Above all, he gives the disciples the ability to forgive sins, saying to them: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them” (Jn 20:22-23).”

“Here we see the beginning of the Church,” he said, “the glue that holds us together, the cement that binds the bricks of the house: forgiveness.”

Forgiveness is “the greatest love of all,” Pope Francis said, saying that it preserves unity and prevents collapse. It consolidates and strengthens.

“Forgiveness sets our hearts free and enables us to start afresh. Forgiveness gives hope; without forgiveness, the Church is not built up.”

Embracing a spirit of forgiveness helps us to resolve problems with harmony, rejecting other ways, such as hasty judgment and criticism of others. Let us as ask for the grace to make Our Holy Mother Church more beautiful with a renewed spirit of forgiveness and self-correction, he said.

Only after we do this, he explained, will we “be able to correct others in charity.”

“The Holy Spirit is the fire of love burning in the Church and in our hearts, even though we often cover him with the ash of our sins,” the Pope concluded.

“Let us ask him: ‘Spirit of God, Lord, who dwell in my heart and in the heart of the Church, guiding and shaping her in diversity, come! Like water, we need you to live. Come down upon us anew, teach us unity, renew our hearts and teach us to love as you love us, to forgive as you forgive us. Amen.’”
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-on-pentecost-division-isnt-from-the-holy-spirit-89032

Or better in the full version:
https://w2.vatican.va/content/franc...apa-francesco_20170604_omelia-pentecoste.html

JoeP222w · Sep 11, 2018

Albion said:
The priest simply pronounces forgiveness on behalf of God who is believed by us to forgive all sins that a truly repentant person confesses to Him.

Since a sinful man cannot know another sinful man's heart is "truly repentant", this is not possible.

JoeP222w · Sep 11, 2018

Albion said:
More like an authorized representative, I would think.

You can have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ, the only mediator between man and God. I don't see anywhere in the Bible mentioning an "authorized representative" in explicit or implicit manner, apart from Jesus Christ to forgive sins.

Albion · Sep 11, 2018

JoeP222w said:
Since a sinful man cannot know another sinful man's heart is "truly repentant", this is not possible.

If the person appears to be repentant, says so, comes clean with his guilt, and agrees to amend his life, he is absolved of his sins in God's name. True, we cannot be certain that the person is what he purports to be, in which case God will handle it in the afterlife. No one supposes that God is deceived in this process.

How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

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