Special Attention to All Born-Again Christians

Phil 1:21 · Sep 11, 2018

cvanwey said:
As you may or may not be aware, I earnestly and genuinely searched for answers in Christ for 30+ years, only to come up drastically short. So even if God presented to me in a way in which God felt was sufficient, and if I am being intellectually honest, I either missed the revelation, or am too ignorant to 'see' such a stated path.

Either way, my doubt or severe skepticism stems from lack in evidence, despite decades of honest inquiry. So maybe I just need to keep 'pluggin' along, down the very same path I used to do, in

direct accordance with verses Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23.

But as they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a differing result.

I have yet to receive, what I view, as a genuine response from anything other than my own thoughts. So again, you may view it as legitimate, but I may not. But in being honest with myself, I cannot lie to myself and state I received my 'God provided' path, when I do not 'think' I actually ever did.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12:1-3

cvanwey said:
Then what exactly was the actual point to present postmortem evidence, in a resurrection, to many humans? It was to demonstrate that He was the Messiah to humans, with evidence. Why present to 100's/1,000's otherwise? Jesus could have instead just conquered death and stated He did so in revelation of later scripture, while not actually producing resurrection evidence.

So again, why later present to Paul specifically in a revelation - (which was the foundation for the NT)? You made absolutely no attempt to answer.

"20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

cvanwey said:
Again, you have made absolutely no attempt in addressing my observations. In a prior response, it would appear you eluded to 'blasphemy' as being synonymous with 'unbelief', in a specific context?

(i.e.): 'In proper context, it's actually the sin of unbelief. The Pharisees attributed the works of God to satan because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.'

If so, this does not jive...

Unbelief already has it's own category, in verses Mark 16:15-16, John 3:16-21, etc... Blasphemy is instead to take the Lord's name in vain, for all intensive purposes. Or more in line with Commandment #3. You could take the Lord's name in vain postmortem, but this would be irrelevant. The verse would HAVE to pertain to blasphemy while STILL alive on earth. Which means it speaks about blaspheming God prior to human death. Which then further supports my initial observation that once one blasphemes, and later tries to repent while still alive, will be denied, according to scripture.

Maybe take a fresh 'relook' at Mark 3:28-30 please?

Specifically 'whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.'

In conclusion, to blaspheme, or speak adversely against the Holy Ghost while on earth, is unforgivable. If it simply instead referred to unbelief prior to human death, it would state as such clearly, and not require looking for random Bible verses to make it fit with your very specific agenda - (via redefining 'blasphemy' to instead mean 'sin of unbelief' in some obscure way).

See post #9

usexpat97 · Sep 12, 2018

I'm going to do something out-of-character: I think this Scripture is not literal. Jesus is saying something analogous to, "Bully me around all you want. But if you lay a hand on my brother, I'll hurt you."

I think if you sin against the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit can intercede for you, and you can be forgiven. But sin against the Holy Spirit should still be taken VERY seriously, and you have to repent, and all that. You anger the Holy Spirit, and you anger Jesus even more. And the Holy Spirit--whom you just wronged--is the one who has to defend you. You're better off just not doing it.

This is one reason I don't make light of people speaking in tongues, or other manner of charismatic stuff people do. I don't always believe in it, but--it might be the Holy Spirit after all. Not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

cvanwey · Sep 12, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12:1-3

Just for the record, you do realize that merely quoting Bible verses is just about as effective towards me, as it would be for a Muslim to pluck verses from the Holy Qur'an only, in response to you, right?

Please reconsider actually placing some of your own thoughts and analysis to such responses and observations....

Otherwise, this is not just a display of cut-and-paste with Bible verses alone. We can all read the Bible for that.

Phil 1:21 said:

"20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

Click to expand...

Phil 1:21 said:
1 Corinthians 15:20-22

Again, this addresses nothing, and is not relevant to my prior response. Please respond to post #40. Otherwise, I can too clip/paste verses from books.

Phil 1:21 said:
See post #9

Can you please actually address post #40? Also, be aware that simply self redefining 'sin of unbelief' to instead mean 'blasphemy', does not resolve such a quandary.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 12, 2018

cvanwey said:
Please respond to post #40.

See post #41.

cvanwey · Sep 13, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
See post #41.

Again, not relevant. Please see post #40.

***********************

And in regards to post #9, in which you are also avoiding, is not a viable definition of 'blasphemy' under any logical conclusion. The 'sin of unbelief' does not fit, under any context - (from both Christians and non-Christians alike).

Even many Christian apologists themselves will argue that it is not until one accepts the Lord as their savior, repents, and THEN rejects Him, (like Satan), is one then condemned forever. As in - http://www.[bless and do not curse]...do not curse]/question/what-is-blasphemy.html

****************************

Nowhere is the 'sin of unbelief' in context with the term 'blasphemy'. You have deliberately 'shoehorned' such a conclusion to make it fit and align with your specific belief structure. However, such a conclusion demonstrates a specific cognitive dissonance.

In conclusion, blasphemy means to reject, take in vain, insult, demonstrate contempt for, display lack in reverence, and/or offend. The remaining debatable area might stem from whether or not one is ALREADY a believer. Such an offense apparently can be achieved from both believers and non-believers alike.

It would appear that there exists an 'unforgivable sin' from Yahweh --> (Exodus 20:7).

How might the Christian reconcile this conclusion, while in the same breath, also claim such a God is loving and forgiving? Seems like a fairly petty stipulation, in regards to unforgiveness.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 13, 2018

cvanwey said:
Again, not relevant. Please see post #40.

Phil 1:21 said:
See post #41.

cvanwey · Sep 13, 2018

Over the years, I've found that people whom do not have a direct rebuttal to valid points, instead respond in one of three ways. I, myself, have done so in the past throughout my life, but am working on doing it as little as possible ;-)

1. ignore
2. change the subject
3. instead address the presenter's character

Thanks

Phil 1:21 · Sep 13, 2018

4. Point you to the answer you continue to ignore.

Phil 1:21 said:
See post #41.

You're welcome.

cvanwey · Sep 13, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
4. Point you to the answer you continue to ignore.

You're welcome.

Nope, addressed it quite sufficiently. As stated many times now, you are cleaving to irrelevant Bible verses. (i.e.) They do not address my observations.

And please continue to (ignore) the fact you have (redefined) the word 'blasphemy' (from post #9), to make fit your own personal belief structure; which happens to demonstrate irrelevance to the topic.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 14, 2018

cvanwey said:
Nope, addressed it quite sufficiently. As stated many times now, you are cleaving to irrelevant Bible verses. (i.e.) They do not address my observations.

“Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, which has eyes to see but does not see, and ears to hear but does not hear; for they are a rebellious house." Ezekiel 12:2

cvanwey · Sep 14, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
“Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, which has eyes to see but does not see, and ears to hear but does not hear; for they are a rebellious house." Ezekiel 12:2

Until you at least acknowledge that you have overtly and unnecessarily redefined the word 'blasphemy', to suit your own very specific agenda of avoidance (i.e. post #9), I'm not really interested in any further unrelated Bible verses.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 14, 2018

“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 2:14

cvanwey · Sep 14, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 2:14

Please see post #51

Phil 1:21 · Sep 14, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
See post #41.

cvanwey · Sep 14, 2018

Posts #43, #45, #47, #49, and #51

SPF · Sep 18, 2018

cvanwey, you want to know how Christians deal with that passage, yet you're rejecting how Christians deal with that passage, what is it you're looking for?

The only sin that Christ literally cannot forgive is the "sin" of unbelief. Christ's death on the cross is sufficient to pay for any and all the sins that people will commit in their life. No sin is greater, or more powerful than what Christ did.

Forgiveness of our sins comes to all people who believe and ask for it.

Essentially, the unpardonable sin is committed by 100% of all people who are not Christians, yet no Christian commits it.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 18, 2018

SPF said:
cvanwey, you want to know how Christians deal with that passage, yet you're rejecting how Christians deal with that passage, what is it you're looking for?

Arguments, and validation of his incorrect belief system.

cvanwey · Sep 18, 2018

SPF said:
cvanwey, you want to know how Christians deal with that passage, yet you're rejecting how Christians deal with that passage, what is it you're looking for?

The only sin that Christ literally cannot forgive is the "sin" of unbelief. Christ's death on the cross is sufficient to pay for any and all the sins that people will commit in their life. No sin is greater, or more powerful than what Christ did.

Forgiveness of our sins comes to all people who believe and ask for it.

Essentially, the unpardonable sin is committed by 100% of all people who are not Christians, yet no Christian commits it.

I hear what you are saying.

However, no viable definition of blasphemy appears synonymous with the definition of unbelief. So it would appear that there may exist 'rationalization' to 'shoehorn' such a verse, via Mark 3:28-30.

In conclusion, my OP appears to stand. Once blasphemed, you are doomed. This does not appear to bode well with 'born again' Christians.

Holoman · Sep 19, 2018

cvanwey said:
I hear what you are saying.

However, no viable definition of blasphemy appears synonymous with the definition of unbelief. So it would appear that there may exist 'rationalization' to 'shoehorn' such a verse, via Mark 3:28-30.

In conclusion, my OP appears to stand. Once blasphemed, you are doomed. This does not appear to bode well with 'born again' Christians.

I think there is some false equivocation going on leading to a miscommunication. When people are talking about "belief in" Jesus, they aren't merely talking about the belief he was the son of God, because even Satan believes that, but it is an acceptance of the Holy Spirit to be lord over your life.

What the Pharisees did was they witnessed the Holy Spirit performing miracles in Jesus, and they rejected the spirit.

If you want to understand what he was saying, just read it in the context of the whole passage, not in isolation. He was saying this in reaction to what someone else was doing, which was attributing his works to Satan.

The next verse even tells you exactly why he said it.

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

cvanwey · Sep 19, 2018

Holoman said:
I think there is some false equivocation going on leading to a miscommunication. When people are talking about "belief in" Jesus, they aren't merely talking about the belief he was the son of God, because even Satan believes that, but it is an acceptance of the Holy Spirit to be lord over your life.

What the Pharisees did was they witnessed the Holy Spirit performing miracles in Jesus, and they rejected the spirit.

If you want to understand what he was saying, just read it in the context of the whole passage, not in isolation. He was saying this in reaction to what someone else was doing, which was attributing his works to Satan.

The next verse even tells you exactly why he said it.

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

You guys are really trying, but no cigar

(All definitions provided from the Webster Dictionary)

Synonyms of disbelief
incredulity, nonbelief, unbelief

Words Related to disbelief
discredit, distrust, doubt, mistrust, skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty, denial, rejection, repudiation, unfaith

***************

Disbelief/unbelief has it's very own category. It's called unbelief or disbelief, and is referred to many times in the Bible, as the offense for not believing (i.e.) Mark 16:15-16, John 3:16-21, etc.....

Blasphemy, or to blaspheme, on the other hand, is NOT related to disbelief:

Synonyms of blasphemy
defilement, desecration, impiety, irreverence, profanation, sacrilege

Words Related to blasphemy
cursing, profanity, swearing, affront, insult, violation, contamination, corruption, debasement, pollution, sin, trespass

I do not recall in the Holy Bible, where it states something to the effect of, "you must first be a believer (or know something does exist) before you can possibly then blaspheme the Holy Spirit." Blasphemy pertains to the wide variety of definitions/synonyms above. Meaning, to insult, show contempt, display lack in reverence, etc... Both believers and nonbelievers can be in offense to such a sin or crime, according to the Bible.

Until you can demonstrate that Blasphemy actually instead means 'sin of unbelief', you are instead attempting to change definitions to cater to your own conclusion.

Furthermore, it is unforgivable. Which seems to contradict grace and forgiveness.

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