Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

RaymondG

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Paul goes further and maps the Church economy to Israel's "Wilderness Economy," when it was a daily requirement to equalize what had been gathered by the group so that nobody had too much and nobody had too little--with God have already stated that everyone was due an equal amount.

If everyone has 100 million dollars, then no one it's rich and no one is poor.....because all are equal. Our desire should be that all are equally rich......because when all are rich...no one is.

It seems that most Christian, however, desire all to have little, if anything, above basic needs......
While this is ok to desire for oneself, it's not ideal to wish for others.
 
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Samaritan Woman

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Some are healed instantly...some as they went. Are you saying that you've resigned yourself to the belief that you will never be healed and therefore stopped praying? Will you try to be like an interpretation of Paul, as some suggested?

I think if God wanted to heal me by now He would have done it already. I am not entitled to perfect health while in this present life, nor does God owe me anything. By the way, I've heard this prosperity line before given I've been a believer for almost 20 years. And that's what it is - a gimmicky line offering false hope.
 
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RDKirk

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If everyone has 100 million dollars, then no one it's rich and no one is poor.....because all are equal. Our desire should be that all are equally rich......because when all are rich...no one is.

It seems that most Christian, however, desire all to have little, if anything, above basic needs......
While this is ok to desire for oneself, it's not ideal to wish for others.

...give us this day our daily bread...

....

“Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

“This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

....

“Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that steward whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose the steward says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that steward will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.


Every one of us who has a surfeit of resources, much more than our "daily bread," while there are others in the Body who are starving are in danger of being that rich fool, that unwise steward.
 
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Strong in Him

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I also will save you from all your uncleanness: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen” Ezekiel 36:29-30

Sir, do you agree that the above scripture speaks of material wealth?

It speaks of people being blessed and provided for materially, yes.

I wasn't disputing that bit. I was asking why you say that this is the New Covenant, when others, including the early church, say that it was prophesied by Jeremiah - God says that he will put his law in us, forgive us and remember our sins no more, Jeremiah 31:31-34.
At the last supper, Jesus said, "this is my blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins", Matthew 26:28. Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Hebrews 9:22.

Jesus died to reconcile us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Romans 5:11, and give us peace with God, Romans 5:1. If we are in Christ, we have every spiritual blessing, Ephesians 1:3.
Nowhere does Scripture say "come to Christ and you're guaranteed material blessings", nor did Jesus teach it.

And by the way, I'm a woman. :)
 
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Strong in Him

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This is to be expected, but generally speaking those who follow Jesus do pretty well in material and health blessings.

The apostles must have been failures then.
Sharing their possessions, taking a collection for poor churches hit by the famine, working to earn a living, getting themselves killed, becoming ill, like Paul, who only preached to the Galatians because of sickness, Galatians 4:13, Epaphroditus who nearly died, Philippians , 3:27, and poor old Trophimus, who got left behind by Paul because he was unwell, 2 Timothy 4:20 - what were they thinking? Why weren't they enjoying wealth, funding the churches themselves and going around in perfect health as a testimony to how blessed they were? Why weren't they preaching, "come to Jesus, get money and good health"? Everyone wants those things; the Gospel would be incredibly popular.
 
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Strong in Him

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I believe the prosperity gospel is a cult movement having nothing to do with scripture. But if you carefully read my post, I made a career out of living the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6:24-34 and God prospered me abundantly. Because I was not seeking a career or wealth, but his righteousness and kingdom.

The problem with linking wealth, or material blessing, with obedience - apart from that it's works, "God blessed me because I ....." - is that it implies that Christians who are unemployed/have awful jobs/are ill/suffer with depression etc etc, are that way because they are not being obedient or don't have faith.

God blesses because he blesses.
He blesses us with gifts and the ability to work hard. Yet some Christians find it hard to get a job or discover where God wants them to be, while others have the privilege of saying "I have served God for 30 years as ......."
My husband was a teacher 30+ years. He went into teaching because he couldn't think what else to do; he may not even have been a Christian at the time.
I was training to be a nurse for people with learning disabilities, believing that that was where God wanted me to be. I did not finish the training; I became ill with M.E which I had for 18 years, and, mostly, couldn't work.
This does not prove that my husband had more faith, and was more obedient/faithful than I was.
 
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Dave L

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The apostles must have been failures then.
Sharing their possessions, taking a collection for poor churches hit by the famine, working to earn a living, getting themselves killed, becoming ill, like Paul, who only preached to the Galatians because of sickness, Galatians 4:13, Epaphroditus who nearly died, Philippians , 3:27, and poor old Trophimus, who got left behind by Paul because he was unwell, 2 Timothy 4:20 - what were they thinking? Why weren't they enjoying wealth, funding the churches themselves and going around in perfect health as a testimony to how blessed they were? Why weren't they preaching, "come to Jesus, get money and good health"? Everyone wants those things; the Gospel would be incredibly popular.
I think the Apostles still make out better than any of us in eternity. But in my case I still experience persecution and have a willingness to leave all behind in a heartbeat if necessary. And also give everything away. My usual approach is to give and not sell from my abundance.
 
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emekrus

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If everyone has 100 million dollars, then no one it's rich and no one is poor.....because all are equal. Our desire should be that all are equally rich......because when all are rich...no one is.

It seems that most Christian, however, desire all to have little, if anything, above basic needs......
While this is ok to desire for oneself, it's not ideal to wish for others.
Brother,

The Lord is using you to reply exactly what I have in mind. Brother, my heart agrees perfectly with yours.
 
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emekrus

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It speaks of people being blessed and provided for materially, yes.

I wasn't disputing that bit. I was asking why you say that this is the New Covenant, when others, including the early church, say that it was prophesied by Jeremiah - God says that he will put his law in us, forgive us and remember our sins no more, Jeremiah 31:31-34.
At the last supper, Jesus said, "this is my blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins", Matthew 26:28. Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Hebrews 9:22.

Jesus died to reconcile us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Romans 5:11, and give us peace with God, Romans 5:1. If we are in Christ, we have every spiritual blessing, Ephesians 1:3.
Nowhere does Scripture say "come to Christ and you're guaranteed material blessings", nor did Jesus teach it.

And by the way, I'm a woman. :)
Alright,

Sister,
Well, I believe Ezekiel is continuation of the new Covenant.

If not how come we now have new heart and the Holy Spirit when we receive Christ.

Then as for Jesus teaching about material blessings. What do you think the Lord meant when he said give and it shall be given unto you. pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give unto your bossom.

Was he teaching about material or spiritual blessings there?
 
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Bible Highlighter

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“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.” – Ezekiel 36:26-30 (emphasis mine)

It is commonly argued that prosperity is not for the New Testament Church. And that as a matter of fact, the entire prosperity doctrine is false…

But from the highlighted clauses of the opening text, it is obvious that such arguments are not true. The opening text is a copy of the New Covenant as prophesied by the Prophet Ezekiel. And it was fulfilled and ratified by the death of Christ on the cross. By the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, anyone who believes in him (Jesus) becomes an automatic partaker of the New Covenant, and all its tenets.

And as a result, anyone who believes in Christ receives a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit as stated in the Covenant…

And in much the same way, anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, also becomes a partaker of the prosperity clauses of the same New Covenant (Ezekiel 36: 29-30).

It is also argued that this Covenant is actually directed at the Jews. That is true. But however, the scripture tells us that we are fellow-citizens with the saints through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. And that the wall of partition between us and the Jew was broken in his flesh. Hence, we—Gentiles—also have access to the Covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-19).

If we believe that every Christian under the New Covenant already has changed hearts. And the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, to enable them keep the statutes of God as it is contained in the New Covenant, we shouldn’t also have problem believing that every believer is also prosperous.

Here are the divine prosperity clauses of the New Covenant again from the book of Ezekiel 36: 29-30;

I also will save you from all your uncleanness: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen

In the above scripture, the Lord clearly promises us prosperity. And he assures us of not receiving anymore reproach of famine among the heathen.

Now a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. So let us consider another scripture that guarantees that divine prosperity is for the present church;

Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the Churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of ministering to the saints. And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. Therefore, as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I speak not by commandment but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor; that ye through his poverty might be rich.” –2Corinthians 8:1-9

I had to quote this particular scripture to this length so we can get the exact context. Because many say it is being interpreted out of context. The above scripture is clearly talking about the giving grace God bestowed upon the Macedonian churches. Verse 2 says in their great trial of affliction, the abundance of their Joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. So clearly, this scripture is talking about the giving grace.

Then in verse 7 the Apostle Paul admonishes the Corinthians that as they abound or increase in spiritual gifts such as faith, utterance, knowledge, diligence, and love, they should see to it that they also abound or increase in the giving grace also. Then in verse 9 he says;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”

Concerning the above verse (verse 9), many argue that the riches referred to here are spiritual riches. But saying that will imply that the Apostle Paul meant;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was spiritually rich, yet for your sakes he became spiritually poor, that ye through his spiritual poverty might be spiritually rich.”

Of course, the above quotation can’t be farther from the truth. It is scripturally obvious that Jesus was never spiritually poor while he was here on earth. He couldn’t have been spiritually poor, after living a blameless, holy life… After healing all manners of sickness and diseases. And even after raising the dead. No. The true interpretation is;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was materially rich, yet for your sakes he became materially poor, that ye through his material poverty might be materially rich”.

The above interpretation is in perfect harmony with scriptural truth. We all know that the only poverty the Lord suffered while he was here on earth was material poverty. Especially not having where to lay his head. Hence, he suffered material poverty so we can enjoy material riches.

I agree divine prosperity and the prosperity doctrine has been abused and pushed to some extremes by many folks. But like I always say, doctrinal and other abuses or extremism is not only the vice of the prosperity doctrine. Other doctrines such as grace, deliverance, faith, sanctification, etc…

have also been abused and pushed to the extreme. But the panacea or antidote is not to entirely reject these true and wholesome scriptural doctrines.

Because doing so will amount to throwing the tares along with the wheat. And it will thus, create loopholes for the devil to take advantage of. Instead, we should study our bibles carefully and pray more fervently so we will be able to receive the right spiritual insight to be able to separate the shafts from the wheats.

So here we have it. Divine prosperity is for the present Church. Firstly, because it is a part of the New Covenant; and secondly, our Lord Jesus Christ, substituted his earthly material poverty for it.

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili.

However, Paul says,

5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Timothy 6:5-10).

Also, Jesus says,

21 "... If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
" (Matthew 19:21-22).

In fact, when Zacchaeus had given away half of his goods, that was when Jesus said salvation has come to his house (See Luke 19:1-10). Jesus did not say that it was by him making more money that salvation had come to his house.
 
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RaymondG

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I think if God wanted to heal me by now He would have done it already. I am not entitled to perfect health while in this present life, nor does God owe me anything. By the way, I've heard this prosperity line before given I've been a believer for almost 20 years. And that's what it is - a gimmicky line offering false hope.
And you are correct. Everything you believe is true for you. Be it unto you as you believe. But is it ok for others to believe that there is nothing impossible for God? That he can heal all manner of sicknesses and diseases? Or should my good news be to pray but dont expect anything because we arent entitled to anything? I've failed many times in many things in life.....but this doesnt prompt me to tell me children not to try, because it didnt work for me. I still push them forward and let them know they can do and be anything they want, even if i was not able to. Same with things of the spirit.....I asked God for things, havent gotten them, but just because he didnt, doesnt mean he cant....just because He didnt for me, doesnt mean he wont for you. I would always encourage other to trust God without doubt. If HE said it, it is true....you should believe it and try Him regardless of my own personal experiences...
 
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Strong in Him

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Sister,
Well, I believe Ezekiel is continuation of the new Covenant.

I know you do; I'm just saying there doesn't seem to be any other indication that it is, and wondering why you believe that.

If not how come we now have new heart and the Holy Spirit when we receive Christ.

We can have the Holy Spirit because Jesus promised to send the Spirit after he had gone away.
We can only be born again by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is God IN us.

Yes, of course Ezekiel said "I will put my Spirit in them and they will live", and he also said we would have a new heart.
Even though Peter quoted from the book of Joel on the day of Pentecost, what Ezekiel said, and the valley of dry bones, is still a prophecy and a picture of how God gives new life. In fact, Ezekiel 37 is sometimes an OT reading for Pentecost Sunday.

But this isn't the same as the New Covenant - and does not teach about material blessings, which is what you were saying, and emphasised, in your first post.
The New Covenant was prophesied by Jeremiah; sealed by Jesus.
It was because Jesus came, died, brought in the covenant and reconciled us to God, that we could have the Holy Spirit.

Then as for Jesus teaching about material blessings. What do you think the Lord meant when he said give and it shall be given unto you. pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give unto your bossom.

Was he teaching about material or spiritual blessings there?

Maybe both; maybe only spiritual.
We have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ - we are children of God, forgiven, saved, blessed, sealed, have gifts, have new hearts, are heirs together with Christ, are more than conquerors through Christ, etc etc. How is that not "blessings pressed down and running over"?
 
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Strong in Him

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We have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ - we are children of God, forgiven, saved, blessed, sealed, have gifts, have new hearts, are heirs together with Christ, are more than conquerors through Christ, etc etc. How is that not "blessings pressed down and running over"?

This world is temporary.
We who believe in and trust Christ are not OF the world; we are strangers and pilgrims passing through. We are warned by Jesus, Paul and John not to love the world or conform to it. We are not guaranteed an easy life in this world - in fact, Jesus said we would have troubles. But were guaranteed eternal life, not to be separated from God's love, that he will never leave us and victory IN all circumstances, because he has overcome the world. We know that money and material possessions are not all that there is, and will never make us truly happy. We also know not to have any other god before the Lord.

Even if I earned £hundreds each week and had a house all to myself, that would be nothing compared to the amazing blessings that are ours in Christ. Compared to millionaires I'm a pauper - financially. But I am far richer than most of them will ever be, because my riches are in Christ.
 
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RaymondG

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This world is temporary.
We who believe in and trust Christ are not OF the world; we are strangers and pilgrims passing through. We are warned by Jesus, Paul and John not to love the world or conform to it. We are not guaranteed an easy life in this world - in fact, Jesus said we would have troubles. But were guaranteed eternal life, not to be separated from God's love, that he will never leave us and victory IN all circumstances, because he has overcome the world. We know that money and material possessions are not all that there is, and will never make us truly happy. We also know not to have any other god before the Lord.

Even if I earned £hundreds each week and had a house all to myself, that would be nothing compared to the amazing blessings that are ours in Christ. Compared to millionaires I'm a pauper - financially. But I am far richer than most of them will ever be, because my riches are in Christ.
but what about those who are rich naturally and spiritually? How do you compare yourself to them?
 
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Strong in Him

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but what about those who are rich naturally and spiritually? How do you compare yourself to them?

I try not to compare myself to anyone. There's no point; it could lead to envy or pride.

If a Christian has every blessing in Christ AND millions in the bank, they have a huge responsibility; to use the money wisely and not fritter it, to not let it corrupt or make them greedy, as well as caring for the earth and the poor like all the rest of us do.
They have been given more; more is expected of them.
My responsibility is to do what I can with the resources that I have been given.
 
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Robin Mauro

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Give us this day, our daily bread. Be content with your pay (to the soldier). God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. The poor widow gave more than all the rest, all she had to live on. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you and dragging you into court? When you tell the poor man, go sit in the back and the rich man to sit it the front, are you not judging as the world judges? (Bad paraphrase). The love of money is the root of all evil. Many who are first will be last, and the last first. Lazarus went into Abraham's bosom and the rich man who had no compassion, to hell. Some people, in their eagerness to get rich have wandered away from their faith. Jesus was poor, the apostles were poor ...on and on it goes. Your life here on earth is not about money and if you make it so you have missed the boat.
 
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RaymondG

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I try not to compare myself to anyone. There's no point; it could lead to envy or pride.

If a Christian has every blessing in Christ AND millions in the bank, they have a huge responsibility; to use the money wisely and not fritter it, to not let it corrupt or make them greedy, as well as caring for the earth and the poor like all the rest of us do.
They have been given more; more is expected of them.
My responsibility is to do what I can with the resources that I have been given.
So it is ok to let those who desire to be naturally rich, to be naturally rich, and those that desire poverty to stay therein, correct? There are some to love to give....so it is only right that they obtain more, to continue giving more......rather than only acquiring what they need for themselves and leave others to themselves....

I dont link spiritually to money at all, nor to I link rich to the amount of dollars one has in the bank.

Everyone should feel good, receiving just what they ask for from the Lord.....without worry of what those outside would think of it's reception. For only God knows the contents of the heart....
 
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RaymondG

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Give us this day, our daily bread. Be content with your pay (to the soldier). God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. The poor widow gave more than all the rest, all she had to live on. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you and dragging you into court? When you tell the poor man, go sit in the back and the rich man to sit it the front, are you not judging as the world judges? (Bad paraphrase). The love of money is the root of all evil. Many who are first will be last, and the last first. Lazarus went into Abraham's bosom and the rich man who had no compassion, to hell. Some people, in their eagerness to get rich have wandered away from their faith. Jesus was poor, the apostles were poor ...on and on it goes. Your life here on earth is not about money and if you make it so you have missed the boat.
I've never seen the righteous forsaken, nor His seed begging for bread. Jesus and the disciples had everything...therefore they did not need to ask for anything. We who are the Sons of God, have everything...and need not ask for anything.....therefore we are content. Who, when they have everything, is not content?......save the brother of the Prodigal Son......even though he had everything, he looked at the one who seemed to be getting more with envy.

Why? when all the father has is Thine? Therefore take no more thought about what your neighbors have.....because you already have it....if you ask for it. So if you only have not because you ask not....why worry about those who have asked? By all means, dont change your desires to that of another....but also do not assume anything spiritual base on those same desires.

It is more likely that one who do not have more money than they need , i.e. live paycheck to paycheck, to worship those checks than those who have the ability to stop working for good....
 
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RaymondG

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Hello. Good to meet you. I believe that the Lord supplies our needs, not our greeds. God Bless :)
So when you get more than you need....when you have money left over after paying your monthly bills....when you have more money left after buying your food.....It is Satan that gave this surplus... to lead you away from the Lord?
 
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