70th Week - It Is Still Pending

BABerean2

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However, the Jewish people that killed Him on the cross hasn't acknowledge the gospel yet and they won't till they see Jesus. And He's not coming till they're ready and longing to see their Messiah.

Your claim above is proven false by the words of Peter on the Day of Pentecost.

Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel".

Do you deny this fact?


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Why do you keep removing Hebrews 8:6 from Hebrews 8:6-13?

Why do you keep removing Hebrews 10:18 from Hebrews 10:16-18?

Could it be that the word "now" destroys your claim that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah is not now in effect?


........................................

As for Zechariah 12:10, the Apostle John quoted from that verse on the day of Calvary.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

.
 
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Seville90210

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You are claiming there are two different peoples of God, one being the Church and the other being Israel, no matter what Christ said below.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You're just embarrassing yourself so silly, you can't even see the verse you posted rebukes you.

Jesus is talking about TWO groups of sheeps. Another group He must combine into one.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


You claim the Church was unknown in the Old Testament no matter what the passage below says.
The Church, which later included Gentiles, may have been a mystery to most in the Old Testament.
However, it was not a "mystery" to Hosea, based on Paul's words below.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

I'll say it again, the church was unknown and did not exist till after Jesus came into the world.

You seem to think the definition of the church means whoever God calls "My people." One does not become the church when God calls him My people. You're wrong and an embarrassment to the "Body of Christ."

Biblical definition of the church:

Answer: The phrase “the Body of Christ” is a common New Testament metaphor for the Church (all those who are truly saved). The Church is called “one body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, “one body” in 1 Corinthians 10:17, “the body of Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12, and “the body” in Hebrews 13:3. The Church is clearly equated with “the body” of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:24.

https://www.gotquestions.org/body-of-Christ.html

How can you not know this when it's mentioned in numerous scriptures shown above? This is most embarrassing.

Do you know who else God calls My people? Yes, those guys who built the second temple. I can assure you, they're not the gentile church.

2 Chronicles 7:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Then the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said to him: “I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. 13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

If you have to ignore certain verses to make your doctrine work, you have revealed it for what it really is...

And you're adding the word church into the old testament. The only verses I'm ignoring are the silly ones you're manipulating to make your doctrine work.

 
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BABerean2

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I can assure you, they're not the gentile church.

The Church began on the Day of Pentecost when about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 2:36) accepted Christ.

I have had Christians in my home for Bible study which came from a Jewish background.

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".


Once again, you are attempting to make John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine work, and while you are at it you have to throw in an insult or two... "silly", "embarrasment", etc.

You are following in Darby's footsteps, since it was also one of his tactics for defending the new doctrine.

.
 
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Seville90210

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Why do you keep removing Hebrews 8:6 from Hebrews 8:6-13?

Why do you keep removing Hebrews 10:18 from Hebrews 10:16-18?

Could it be that the word "now" destroys your claim that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah is not now in effect?

No, it's because you can't read the words in front of you. The now refers to Jesus' ministry, not the covenant.

Jesus at the first coming established the church, that's the ministry. The covenant with Israel and Judah is still future.

Hebrews 8:6-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

What part of "the days are coming" and "I will" do you not understand is still future from the time Paul wrote Hebrews? This covenant has not been made yet. You're just embarrassing yourself silly!
 
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Seville90210

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The Church began on the Day of Pentecost when about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 2:36) accepted Christ.

The day of Pentecost isn't found in the old testament. Try again!

You must ignore the "I wills" found throughout Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 & 10 to make your doctrine work.
 
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BABerean2

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You must ignore the "I wills" found throughout Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 & 10 to make your doctrine work.

Surely you do understand that the New Testament writers quoted directly from the Old Testament.

In the NKJV found below the Old Testament text is written in Uppercase letters, and is in quotation marks.

The author of the Book of Hebrews quoted the Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, in both Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.



Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

The author of the Book of Hebrews quoted directly from the Old Testament and added Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 10:18, showing the fulfillment of the Old Testament text.

The application of the New Covenant to the "church" in Hebrews 12:22-24 is undeniable, if a person is honest with the text.


Do you deny that the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted directly from the Old Testament?

.
 
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Seville90210

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Surely you do understand that the New Testament writers quoted directly from the Old Testament.

In the NKJV found below the Old Testament text is written in Uppercase letters, and is in quotation marks.

The author of the Book of Hebrews quoted the Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, in both Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

Here you go again. I already said that right here. This is embarrassing. Is reading that hard?

You think it's because Paul is reciting the exact same words Jeremiah wrote? NO! Paul's doing it because he's telling you Jeremiah 31:31 is still in the future from the time he wrote the book of Hebrews, which if you haven't noticed is about 30 years after Matthew 26:28 was established.

You think it's because Paul is reciting the exact same words Jeremiah wrote? NO! Paul's doing it because he's telling you Jeremiah 31:31 is still in the future from the time he wrote the book of Hebrews, which if you haven't noticed is about 30 years after Matthew 26:28 was established.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus has to return and save Jacob's descendants from annihilation in order for God to fulfill His promise.

You even said so right here, ""What hadn't occurred in 60 A.D. was the "coming of the Son of Man""
Jesus DID already come and fulfill the promises.

He declared the physical temple unclean (which would render it necessary for destruction) but the day of the LORD wasn't until 70 AD (the "coming of the Son of Man" wasn't a "coming" to earth - it's a phrase that means "coming into power and glory").


Matthew 16:27-28 New Living Translation (NLT)
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”

Matthew 22:7 New Living Translation (NLT)
7 “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town.

Quoting Gary DeMar------->
For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million."1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger" (Isa. 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands."2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.

The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" [Matt. 22:110; 24:3, 2335; Luke 19:1127, 4144]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:2024]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God [Gal 4:2131; Heb. 12:2225].3

Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (14:3).

After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isa. 10:56, 1213). "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem."4 Thomas Scott concurs: "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."5

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4).

It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God's coming is associated with mountains.

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).

"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).

"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).

"Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).

"For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:1).

"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."6

NOTES

1. Otto Friedrich, The End of the World: A History (New York: Coward, McCann and Geoghegan, 1982), 28.

2. G. N. M. Collins, "Zechariah," The New Bible Commentary, F. Davidson, ed., 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1954), 761.

3. Thomas Scott, The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, According to the Authorised Version; with Explanatory notes, Practical Observations, and Copious Marginal References, 3 vols. (New York: Collins and Hannay, 1832), 2:955

4. Collins, "Zechariah," 761.

5. Scott, The Holy Bible, etc., 956.

6. Ralph Woodrow, His Truth is Marching On: Advanced Studies on Prophecy in the Light of History (Riverside, CA: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1977), 110.

7. "Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:417.

8. Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, 6 vols. (New York: Fleming H. Revell, n.d.), 4:1468.

 
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DaDad

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jgr said:
To jgr:
Did you plan to continue the analysis?


So now, I would propose that we leave this point unresolved, and proceed to the next point, the Daniel 9:2 selection of the word "biyn" as presented in Daniel 9:2

“...perceived in the books the number of years...” (RSV[1])
“...understood by books the number of the years...” (KJV[2])
“...understood by the books the number of the years...” (NKJV[3])
If Daniel simply read in “the books”, much like picking up a newspaper and reading the weather forecast, he would have used the “shama” simple understanding. However, Daniel used the word “biyn” which is a much more complex understanding. Consider 1 Kings 3:

9 Give thy servant therefore an understanding [shama, H8085] mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?”

11 And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding [biyn H995] to discern what is right, 12 behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning [biyn H995] mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you.
As evidenced, Solomon asked for a simple “shama” understanding, and although GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, GOD did not give him what he asked for. Instead HE gave Solomon a much more complex understanding, which would not be matched by any other man. As such, we must consider that Daniel did not read the “books” as from Jeremiah 29:10:

10 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.
Instead Daniel read something much more complex “in the books” of the Old Testament. As such, I would propose that there is a direct reference in at least one book of the Old Testament which reveals the number of years according to the seventy weeks.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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jgr

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To jgr:
Did you plan to continue the analysis?


So now, I would propose that we leave this point unresolved, and proceed to the next point, the Daniel 9:2 selection of the word "biyn" as presented in Daniel 9:2

“...perceived in the books the number of years...” (RSV[1])
“...understood by books the number of the years...” (KJV[2])
“...understood by the books the number of the years...” (NKJV[3])
If Daniel simply read in “the books”, much like picking up a newspaper and reading the weather forecast, he would have used the “shama” simple understanding. However, Daniel used the word “biyn” which is a much more complex understanding. Consider 1 Kings 3:

9 Give thy servant therefore an understanding [shama, H8085] mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?”

11 And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding [biyn H995] to discern what is right, 12 behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning [biyn H995] mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you.
As evidenced, Solomon asked for a simple “shama” understanding, and although GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, GOD did not give him what he asked for. Instead HE gave Solomon a much more complex understanding, which would not be matched by any other man. As such, we must consider that Daniel did not read the “books” as from Jeremiah 29:10:

10 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.
Instead Daniel read something much more complex “in the books” of the Old Testament. As such, I would propose that there is a direct reference in at least one book of the Old Testament which reveals the number of years according to the seventy weeks.

Thanks,
DaDad

No plan to continue, DaDad; I'm busy elsewhere.
 
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TribulationSigns

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For those interested, here is the actual Scripture evidence that the final 70th week is still yet to come to pass.

I am back and no the 70th week is not yet in the future. It was confirmed by CHRIST for many. This has to do with Christ and His New Testament Congregation. Daniel 9:27 has everything to do with New Testament Congregation of God, not Titus 70AD, not modern national Israel, nor the so-called antichrist and the third temple.
 
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Seville90210

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Jesus DID already come and fulfill the promises.

He declared the physical temple unclean (which would render it necessary for destruction) but the day of the LORD wasn't until 70 AD (the "coming of the Son of Man" wasn't a "coming" to earth - it's a phrase that means "coming into power and glory").

Good luck trying to prove what no one else has been able to. Jesus already told us He will not return until the Jewish people say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (cry for their Messiah). The Israelites weren't looking for Jesus in 70AD. They were fleeing for their lives.

Matthew 23:39 New King James Version (NKJV)
for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”



In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present.

Zechariah 2:10-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.


Zechariah 8:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Thus says the Lord:

I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the Lord of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’



Zechariah 9:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
I will camp around My house
Because of the army,
Because of him who passes by and him who returns.
No more shall an oppressor pass through them,
For now I have seen with My eyes.



Zechariah 9:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then the Lord will be seen over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning.
The Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And go with whirlwinds from the south.


Zechariah 14:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Ezekiel 11:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain, which is on the east side of the city.


Habakkuk 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
He stood and measured the earth;
He looked and startled the nations.
And the everlasting mountains were scattered,
The perpetual hills bowed.
His ways are everlasting.



Micah 1:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
For behold, the Lord is coming out of His place;
He will come down
And tread on the high places of the earth.



Joel 3:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.


Joel 3:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
“So you shall know that I am the Lord your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again.”



Isaiah 12:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
Cry out and shout, O inhabitant of Zion,
For great is the Holy One of Israel in your midst!”


Isaiah 60:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
Also the sons of those who afflicted you
Shall come bowing to you,
And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet;
And they shall call you The City of the Lord,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.



So what were you saying again about Christ not physically present on earth at the second coming? This is what happens when you listen to Gary DeMar and not read the bible, 1 Corinthians 3:19-21.

Gary DeMar, who is a preterist advocate from the American Vision worldview ministry, posted today this surface-level critique of the prewrath position. Actually, it was not so much a critique of the prewrath position as it was more a drive-by rambling against futurism. Gary DeMar is not a scholar, he is a popularizer, but that should not excuse him from his slipshod interactions with other positions.

One of the reasons why I think he is unwilling to honestly and substantively interact with futurist positions (including prewrath) is because he loathes futurism and dispensationalist premillennialism. So much so that he is more (much more!) friendly to heretical hyperpreterism than he is with his futurist brothers and sisters in Christ. This is something everyone needs to know when they approach DeMar’s writings. And that should tell you something about DeMar’s priorities, that he loathes dispensationalism/premillennialism/futurism to the degree that he will align himself more with the heresy of hyperpreterism so as to distance himself from dispensationalist premillennialism. To be sure, DeMar is a preterist not a hyperpreterist—though he is often hard-pressed to repudiate the heresy of hyperpreterism.

Gary DeMar and other preterist interpreters inveigh against futurists for being “literalistic” in their interpretations. Yet, I actually find many of their interpretations literalistic, as in this case, interpreting “soon” as being fulfilled within a few years at the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD.

This is a favorite argument of preterists. But it is facile.

Interpreters such as DeMar do not consider—or even show awareness—of the pragmatic use of language. The preterist literalistic semantic assumptions reveal their lack of linguistic perception and appreciation for the pragmatics of apocalyptic parenesis (exhortation).

A better option to the preterist interpretation is to understand the term “soon” (en tachei) in this context as possessing the sense of certainty, especially with its collocation with the term dei (“it is necessary”). I.e. these events are certain to happen, therefore take heed.

However, the most likely interpretation, in my judgment, is that it indicates expectancy (not that the latter interpretation needs to be disconnected from this one). Every generation of the church, not just the first generation, should possess a heedful expectation of Christ’s return and its associative events. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near [engys]” (Rev 1:3).

This parenesis functions to instill alertness in every generation of believers who read the book of Revelation. Since we do not know when he will return, we are always to be vigilant, lest we find ourselves unprepared for the things that will take place. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!” Rev 16:15).

Incidentally, according to preterist interpretive standards, they must be consistent and conclude that the apostle Paul was a false prophet:

“The God of peace will soon (en tachei) crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom 16:20)

Last time I checked that did not happen in Paul’s day; in fact after two thousand years, it still has not happened.

Paul’s prophecy will be fulfilled at Christ’s parousia when “he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (1 Cor 15:24–26).

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” —Matt 24:34

This is the go-to proof text for preterists. It is the holy grail of preterism. It is the first and last thing that comes out of their mouths when you talk to them about the Olivet Discourse. But is their interpertation on this verse correct?

The operative expression in this verse is “this generation.” It is taken by preterists to mean literally the actual generation of the disciples who were living at that time, having all the events, including the parousia, to be fulfilled during that generation. In other words, they argue, the events that Jesus predicted such as the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation, and the parousia of Christ happened during their generation. Therefore, we should not be looking into the future for these events to occur. They already happened. And Matthew 24:34 with “this generation” solidifies it for them.

Incidentally, preterist interpretation grew out of 19th century higher-critical, non-predictive, anti-supernatural scholarship, who denied that Jesus was a true prophet, let alone divine. They believed Jesus was a misguided—and mistaken—Jewish messianic claimant. And some of these critical scholars believed it was his followers who put these words on Jesus’ lips. Indeed, 20th century evangelical preterists tweaked this interpretation in keeping with inspired predictive prophesy. This fact of the history of preterist interpretation does not make evangelical preterism right or wrong. But I do find it interesting that in much evangelical preterist literature, there is a minimization of predictive prophecy of the second coming of Christ. For example, Gary DeMar has been hard pressed to find instances in the New Testament which speak of the second coming of Christ.

Now back to Matthew 24:34. How do futurists interpret this verse? A common interpretation is that Jesus intends “this generation” to refer to a future generation that will experience all these events, which does not then require it to be the generation of his first disciples. Jesus, it is argued, leaves open the particular generation. It is further argued in this interpretation that Jesus coming on the clouds is a reference to his second coming (which I believe is correct), therefore, this event and those surrounding it such as the great tribulation must be in the future. I think there is some merit to this interpretation. But I do not believe it is the best one for the futurist. I believe Jesus intends something else with “this generation.”

I want to direct you to an excellent article by Neil D. Nelson, Jr, entitled, “‘This Generation’ in Matt 24:34: A Literary Critical Perspective.” Nelson argues that Jesus uses the expression, “this generation,” not in some neutral or temporal sense, but as a derogatory characterization referring to an evil and unbelieving people headed toward eschatological judgment. This expression, “represents an evil class of people who will oppose Jesus’ disciples until the day he returns….but upon that return they will be judged (“passed away”) and the true disciples and the real Christ will be vindicated.”
 
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BABerean2

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I want to direct you to an excellent article by Neil D. Nelson, Jr, entitled, “‘This Generation’ in Matt 24:34: A Literary Critical Perspective.” Nelson argues that Jesus uses the expression, “this generation,” not in some neutral or temporal sense, but as a derogatory characterization referring to an evil and unbelieving people headed toward eschatological judgment. This expression, “represents an evil class of people who will oppose Jesus’ disciples until the day he returns….but upon that return they will be judged (“passed away”) and the true disciples and the real Christ will be vindicated.”


Mat_3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat_11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat_12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Mat_12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat_16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Mat_17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mar_9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Mar_13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luk_9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Luk_11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Luk_11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Luk_11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Luk_11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luk_17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luk_21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Act_2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

.
 
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Seville90210

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Mat_3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat_11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat_12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Mat_12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat_16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Mat_17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mar_9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Mar_13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luk_9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Luk_11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Luk_11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Luk_11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Luk_11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luk_17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luk_21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Act_2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

.

 
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TribulationSigns

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Some people believe the generation was related to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Some people believe the generation related to the rebirth of modern Israel.

But I believe the generation related to the offspring of Satan that spans over time until all things are fulfilled.

Because it was the generation of evil that were/are/will be responsible for the blood of God's prophets. It was this generation, the fruit or offspring of Satan, who killed them. Who's responsible for the blood of the Prophets? Satan, and all those ruled over by him. And the same generation or family of Satan contiuned into the end-time Church. Thus the same family that killed Abel, Jesus and Stephen. Again, see the context of the verse:

Matthew 23:30-32
  • "And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
  • Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
  • Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."
Those people were not literally alive when their family killed the prophets, but God makes it perfectly clear that though they (like many today) protest that they are the good God-fearing congregation, in reality, they are the children of Satan. They are the same spiritual offspring of those who killed the prophets, and are measured the same as those who killed them. Who killed them? The generation of Evil, the same generation they are. Selah.

Matthew 23:35-36
  • " That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
  • Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
What Generation? Certainly not the generation of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John of that Physical/literal Generation. But the Generation of evil, of which these in unbelief were. They were of that same kindred that killed the prophets, and thus will be judged the same for killing the prophets. They all coming with the spirit of antichrist. That word translated generation is [genea] from the root [genos] meaning kindred or family. It's used to designate nations, because they are of one family or common ancestry.

The killing of God's people does not always mean physical death. It also means hating someone with truthful testimony is akin to murder. It is the same spirit of antichrist within professed Christians today who hate, revile, offended by the truth. They are part of the same generation or family of Satan that will soon come to an end when all things are fulfilled. Nothing to do with 70AD, or modern Israel.
 
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DaDad

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Nobody who is a true "born again" Christian will be "left behind" at the return of Christ.

Ummmmmm, EVERYONE "who is a true 'born again' Christian" WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. Those who accept the "mark of the beast" WILL BE REMOVED:

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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BABerean2

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Ummmmmm, EVERYONE "who is a true 'born again' Christian" WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. Those who accept the "mark of the beast" WILL BE REMOVED:

Try not to fall over in shock.

However, I am going to agree with you on this one, because you are not referring to the pretrib doctrine, and the words of Christ below are what I have understood to be the truth for many years.


Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

.
 
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mkgal1

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I asked the questions you highlighted in red to distinguish whether those events were performed by God as either the Son or the Father.

When God created man and the earth during creation, He did so as the Father.
You may wish to read these passages, then (the Trinity doesn't act separately from one another - and that's why we gathered from what you posted that you were suggesting Jesus is not God - that's what you intimated):
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. ~ Colossians 1:15-16

Hebrews 1:2 ~ ... but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

Psalm 102 ~
But you, O Lord, are enthroned forever;
your name endures to all generations.
13 You will rise up and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to favor it;
the appointed time has come.
14 For your servants hold its stones dear,
and have pity on its dust.
15 The nations will fear the name of the Lord,
and all the kings of the earth your glory.
16 For the Lord will build up Zion;
he will appear in his glory.
17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute,
and will not despise their prayer.

18 Let this be recorded for a generation to come,
so that a people yet unborn may praise the Lord:
19 that he looked down from his holy height,
from heaven the Lord looked at the earth,
20 to hear the groans of the prisoners,
to set free those who were doomed to die;
21 so that the name of the Lord may be declared in Zion,
and his praise in Jerusalem,
22 when p
eoples gather together,
and kingdoms, to worship the Lord.

25 Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.
John 1:3 ~ All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being
You failed to recognize the trinity.
Nope. But if you want to talk "Trinity" I'm open to doing that (I really enjoy that topic) - but that's not the focus of this thread.

Jeremiah 31:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
Now what part of this do you not understand? The bible here said Jerusalem will not be destroy anymore forever. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD meaning this prophecy is still future.

You're embarrassing yourself silly trying to argue this as being already fulfilled.
Right....the NEW Jerusalem will not ever be destroyed (it can't be the natural nation of Jerusalem, because like you said, it WAS destroyed in 70 A.D. so that would make that passage untrue, if read to mean that).

It's His people.....His church....His city where His will is done.

His "city" is everlasting.

I'm not embarrassed.

Good luck trying to prove what no one else has been able to. Jesus already told us He will not return until the Jewish people say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (cry for their Messiah). The Israelites weren't looking for Jesus in 70AD. They were fleeing for their lives.

Matthew 23:39 New King James Version (NKJV)
for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
They were fleeing for their lives then.......but prior to that, do you deny there were "Jewish people" making the claim "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"? Do you not realize that all Jesus' disciples were "Jewish people" along with the entire early church?

Matthew 21:9 ~ The crowds that went ahead of Him [Jesus] and those that followed were shouting: “Hosanna to the Son of David!” “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Hosanna in the highest!”

So what were you saying again about Christ not physically present on earth at the second coming?
You read all those passages to mean that God -physically- came to earth? Because that was my point - it's typically not meant to be a physical and literal (tangible or visible) presence (with a few exceptions like the pillar of fire; burning bush; and, of course, Jesus).
 
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